Buick Lacrosse 2012 e-assist moto-alternator

[transistorman]

Back again with an update. Was unable to find a service manual for the lacrosse :/ but as it turns out the inverter module is the same for the 2013 Chevy Malibu, which is quite a bit more common. I purchased a manual and lo, there are some rough one line diagrams for beginning the reverse engineering! Anyone have any idea where I could find a list of GM CAN declarations (request torque / whatever).

 

[electro wrks]

Has anybody done any more work trying to use the stock controller(or other controller) with the eAssist motor?

 

[phate]

Has anybody done any more work trying to use the stock controller(or other controller) with the eAssist motor?

I'm planning to pick up one of the eTorque 48v belted motor/generator/alternator units from a new Ram pickup in the next couple months to mess with. I'm thinking these are likely just looking for CAN messages for control of the integrated inverter. My personal goal would be to get it spinning and bolt it to the turbo EJ25 in my Subaru to supplement the lack of torque/responsiveness when the engine is not in boost, but I think they might end up being a solid option, especially since the entire system runs at only 48V.

According to Continental, it's a liquid cooled "alternator" form factor intended to spin at up to 20,000rpm continuously, with 14kW peak output and 16kW peak regen. 150Nm of torque at the crankshaft (after what I'm guessing is a 2-3:1 pulley ratio, so figure like 50Nm from the motor itself).

 

[winreboot]

Back again with an update. Was unable to find a service manual for the lacrosse :/ but as it turns out the inverter module is the same for the 2013 Chevy Malibu, which is quite a bit more common. I purchased a manual and lo, there are some rough one line diagrams for beginning the reverse engineering! Anyone have any idea where I could find a list of GM CAN declarations (request torque / whatever).

inverter_module.JPG
hybrid_battery_pack.JPG

+1 I'm also looking in to utilizing the oem battery pack with inverter. By any chance did you made any progress in capturing can bus frames to see if they can be replay to get the motor turning?

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Hello for everyone in this thread.
I know that this thread wasn't updated since August 2019, but i would like to know if some of you had new discoveries or had made more tests on those versatile and seemingly powerful hydrocooled motors.
I'm searching more about those mild hybrid electric motors to make a small project, but i was specifically searching about the Gen1 (BAS system), because its a lower voltage (36V nominal), apparently can be controlled with BLDC controllers like standard alternators, and it looks better built than them as well (seeing the photos taken by user AcuteAero in their post, circa 2011 if i'm not mistaken).
To not make more of a mess on this thread, i will make a new one as well.
Thanks ^^

 

[winreboot]

I have the motor sitting on my desk and I can't get it running with the OEM controller. It looks like running after market controller is the only way to get it running, but I don't know what controller would work. Let me know your new thread and if you found any more info on this.

I googled and found some controllers but I don't know if any of those would work. If someone knows how this works please help choose the controller.

Here is the link.
https://www.roboteq.com/all-products/brushless-dc-motor-controllers

 

[ShadowNightmares]

I have the motor sitting on my desk and I can't get it running with the OEM controller. It looks like running after market controller is the only way to get it running, but I don't know what controller would work. Let me know your new thread and if you found any more info on this.

I googled and found some controllers but I don't know if any of those would work. If someone knows how this works please help choose the controller.

Here is the link.
https://www.roboteq.com/all-products/brushless-dc-motor-controllers

Hello, winreboot. If you could confirm to us about what generation of the BAS/eAssist system you have, it would be easier to help you

 

[winreboot]

I have the motor sitting on my desk and I can't get it running with the OEM controller. It looks like running after market controller is the only way to get it running, but I don't know what controller would work. Let me know your new thread and if you found any more info on this.

I googled and found some controllers but I don't know if any of those would work. If someone knows how this works please help choose the controller.

Here is the link.
https://www.roboteq.com/all-products/brushless-dc-motor-controllers

Hello, winreboot. If you could confirm to us about what generation of the BAS/eAssist system you have, it would be easier to help you

Thanks for replying. I have the eAssist system from 2013 Buick lacrosse, I think that is gen2. If you have any info on what controller can operate it, it would be awesome.

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Thanks for replying. I have the eAssist system from 2013 Buick lacrosse, I think that is gen2. If you have any info on what controller can operate it, it would be awesome.

The Gen2/eAssist motor is an induction motor, not a brushless motor (BLDC), so you will need AC induction controllers.
I won't know the best controller to use or the best brand to choose, but i know that the OP uses a Curtis controller with a self-made resolver-to-encoder converter board https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=85514&hilit=resolver&start=25#p1265493 .

 

[winreboot]

Got it, do you know if this type of motor can run with out resolver? I guess the resolver is used for it to be running in closed loop for battery regen?

The oem controller would be great to figure out as it's easy to obtain and cheep to get but nobody has canbus commands to run it. I'm new to this and got savvycan device to tap in to canbus, and I see the controller chatting away when I power it on but it's out of the car and I have no clue what commands would turn the motor. I wired the battery/controller and motor according to diagrams but I figure out the hard way that this OEM controller talks to cars ECU and body control module over canbus. I'm assuming with out getting a log while driving the car its impossible to figure out. That is the reason why I started to look for alternative way and aftermarket controllers but I'm not having much luck.

Thanks for helping out, and any info is appreciated.

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Got it, do you know if this type of motor can run with out resolver? I guess the resolver is used for it to be running in closed loop for battery regen?

The oem controller would be great to figure out as it's easy to obtain and cheep to get but nobody has canbus commands to run it. I'm new to this and got savvycan device to tap in to canbus, and I see the controller chatting away when I power it on but it's out of the car and I have no clue what commands would turn the motor. I wired the battery/controller and motor according to diagrams but I figure out the hard way that this OEM controller talks to cars ECU and body control module over canbus. I'm assuming with out getting a log while driving the car its impossible to figure out. That is the reason why I started to look for alternative way and aftermarket controllers but I'm not having much luck.

Thanks for helping out, and any info is appreciated.

i don't have lots of knowledge in these controllers, but i got the Curtis manual and from what i'm reading, the controller needs the encoder signal to run it (when the signal isn't received, the controller stops and outputs an error signal).
About the canbus commands to work with the OEM controller, only with the actual car to see the commands, as far as i know, so if someone could find a working car to test and copy the communication would be incredible, but until there, we would need to use aftermarket AC Induction controllers.

 

[winreboot]

Yea, I try to rent a buick lacrosse but no luck I also posted on buick forums that I'll pay for 30min of their time and nobody was willing.

Ok, back to curtis controller, this sounds like it's doable. Is there a over the counter resolver/encoder for curtis controller or building one is the only way?

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Yea, I try to rent a buick lacrosse but no luck I also posted on buick forums that I'll pay for 30min of their time and nobody was willing.

Well, that's a bummer.

Ok, back to curtis controller, this sounds like it's doable. Is there a over the counter resolver/encoder for curtis controller or building one is the only way?

From what i've been searching, i only saw expensive industrial resolver/encoder converters, so probably it would be better to contact OP and ask for help or schematics on how to make your own converter board.

 

[parabellum]

From what i've been searching, i only saw expensive industrial resolver/encoder converters, so probably it would be better to contact OP and ask for help or schematics on how to make your own converter board.

I did search for encoder to resolver conversion some years ago and only found expensive industrial stuff and arduino diy module which seems to slow for this motor, I also bought two phases encoder on ebay but stopped working on my project because of different reasons.
I think it is the best way to deal with it, is asking e-vektor (OP) for a schematic and some help to build one, he did not got in right on first try I believe.
Please share if you get further, I would like to restart my project to (have this motor as well).

 

[winreboot]

It's such a nice motor, it's a shame there is no easy way to get it working. I'll try to contact curtis to see if they have any type of over the counter encoder. The best would be if some electronic engineer could crack the OEM controller but I don't know any EE. The battery pack is nice too. I'm just charging the battery pack so it does not loose it's charge, it's asking to be used

Does anyone know of similar size and power motor that is on the market and comes as a kit?

Thanks!

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Does anyone know of similar size and power motor that is on the market and comes as a kit?

Well, for a similar power, ignoring a bit the size difference, in a quick search i've found the following motor kits: HPEVS AC-9 + Curtis Controller (48V350A costing from 2000USD and more, i won't tell in what websites/stores because i don't remember if its against the rules), in the same website that i saw that AC-9 i saw a 72V brushed kit with 11kW continuous/28kW peak (ME1003 motor) for 1520USD, and a brushless kit with ME1507 and Curtis Controller (72V450A) for 2580USD.
I can search more for you but now i'm in a bit of a tight time limit next to a PC.

 

[winreboot]

Yea, the HPEVS AC-9 is awesome, but the price is out of my range.

The good news is that the encoder might be less of an issue then I thought. Curtis support told me that any quadrature encoder 4-pin speed encoder 5v or 12v in 32-256 PPR range would work.

A quick search on ebay I found 5v, 4pin speed encoder with 64 pulses that fits in the range under $20. All it would need is coupler and I can make that easily. So I'm thinking the curtis controller might be the way to go.

I was able to charge the OEM battery pack to 130v so I'm assuming this eassist AC induction motor is 130v ? Would the curtis controller also have to be able to support 130v or are the amp's more important, would it run on less volts? Sorry for all the questions but I'm new to this.

Thanks!

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Yea, the HPEVS AC-9 is awesome, but the price is out of my range.

No problem, the eAssist motor still can be used, just need the Curtis controller

The good news is that the encoder might be less of an issue then I thought. Curtis support told me that any quadrature encoder 4-pin speed encoder 5v or 12v in 32-256 PPR range would work.

A quick search on ebay I found 5v, 4pin speed encoder with 64 pulses that fits in the range under $20. All it would need is coupler and I can make that easily. So I'm thinking the curtis controller might be the way to go.

Quadrature encoders are good and precise, i have a 600pulse here for a diy steering wheel for PC simulators.

I was able to charge the OEM battery pack to 130v so I'm assuming this eassist AC induction motor is 130v ? Would the curtis controller also have to be able to support 130v or are the amp's more important, would it run on less volts? Sorry for all the questions but I'm new to this.

Yes, your controller will need to be able to support the 130V to not burn with the voltage, i think they have HV controllers, so you will need only to check who sells and how much it cost

 

[Harold in CR]

The voltage is not as important as the amps. Voltage works on RPM range. I want to do 144V or more on mine, but it takes 600 Amps or more to get real performance from the alternator you have. e-vector spells this out in his posts. It will take a Johannes Huebner brain, coupled to an automotive inverter of higher voltage and amperage, but, I don't have the electronics knowledge to be able to do that. I have the HONDA IMA and also a Chevy Volt inverter right now. Just need a DIY for Dummies thread to get mine working.

Keep this thread up to date as you work on getting yours to run.

 

[ShadowNightmares]

The voltage is not as important as the amps. Voltage works on RPM range. I want to do 144V or more on mine, but it takes 600 Amps or more to get real performance from the alternator you have. e-vector spells this out in his posts.

Yeah, you're correct, Harold. The motor can run in lower voltage, i just was refering to a higher voltage because he talked about the original battery and it was looking that he wants to use it. Unfortunately the 72-144V Curtis controller is costing 3k USD in a website that i've found, and the 96V one costs 2,3k USD, but he would need to build another battery.

 

[amberwolf]

I have the motor sitting on my desk and I can't get it running with the OEM controller. It looks like running after market controller is the only way to get it running, but I don't know what controller would work.

If you can't talk to the OEM controller, you can rip it's brain out and control it directly from a different brain (you just have to figure out the gate control and current sensor wiring).

I do not know if the brain I am using will work with an induction motor (probably says in one of the Lebowski threads), but if it will:

I'm doing this now with the Lebowski brain in a Honda IMA inverter over here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105711
The thread isn't finished yet, because I'm trying to document it well enough for anyone that wants to to do the same thing, or adapt to any other big-EV inverter that they can determine where the signals need to go, but Kiwifiat, Tomdb, and others have already verified that this system works.

The brain is a little more than $100 shipped depending on where you are, from Kiwifiat, and you already have the inverter. If you had to use a different inverter, then depending on what power level/etc you need, you might even be able to use the Honda IMA inverter, which can be had for under $100 shipped, if you poke around or wait. Or there's others (Volt, Prius, etc).

The brain can be used sensorless, or with UVW hall sensors for startup, though you'd need an encoder converter for those. Kiwifiat is also working on some encoder to hall converters but I don't even remember what kind of signal they convert from, so you'd have to look at his posts for that info.



If the brain does not do induction, the code has been made open-source, so if you know how, you could rewrite it so it *would* do induction motors.

 

[Harold in CR]

I asked Lebowski, over a year ago, if there were any plans to do the code, and he responded that he just did not have the time to do it. I believe that there is more interest in these alternators now, so, maybe someone that understands code writing could check out if it could be done.

I would even donate one of the alternators to someone in the USA, if they would take on this challenge. Had an arrangement with another member to ship one to Paul Holmes, but that member is no longer active here.

 

[arber333]

Well you could use Hübner controller. It comes native to ACIM and now can runs with resolver directly. Head out to www.openinverter.org and search forum. You can then decide what your power section will be. We have various in different stages of development from prius Gen2 and 3 to Volt drive and the most developed Nissan Leaf power section.

 

[arber333]

Here is the working version of Huebner inverter with lacrosse motor. I still have some things to resolve but i have positive throttle control with resolver interface. Mostly it seems to be EMI.
https://youtu.be/7Xq03S_Bpwg

 

[parabellum]

Here is the working version of Huebner inverter with lacrosse motor. I still have some things to resolve but i have positive throttle control with resolver interface. Mostly it seems to be EMI.
https://youtu.be/7Xq03S_Bpwg

Nice. Can you show the Inverter?