Building and charging 60v 15A/Hr lipo pack advice

winchmeup

1 W
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
62
Location
Australia
I would like to build a 60 v 15a/hr lipo battery pack and would like some input so i dont wast lots of money and/or blowup, burn, mame myself.
A couple of things i would like to know.

How do i stop the battery arc when connecting them together? I have seen a photo of some guys fingers burnt and charred similar to when i decided to put a spanner accros two basbar phases when i was an apprentice. Admittedly i think he was running higher voltage.

Is there an easy way to charge 15s 3p?
when charging, do i need to seperate all the packs each time?
Will i need to place them in a charge bag?

Can i just tape them all together or do i need to space between them for cooling?
What is the best way to parrellel connect packs? I s there a parralel plug setup?
Do i just monitor the total voltage of the pack so i dont break the golden rule of lipo.
Anything else i should need to consider?
Thanks
 
Hey mate, whereabouts in Oz are you? Lots of ES folks down under who can help.

The cells shouldn't arc under almost every circumstance, and if you have the wrong circumstances, it will be an epic spark. The only time a spark is expected is when you plug something in with a large capacitor bank for smoothing out power supplies, like a motor speed controller, or a battery charger. Battery chargers are easy to remedy - turn it on before plugging it in. The controller on the other hand will need a precharge circuit, but we can get to that later.

Charging - use a bulk charger. That's what every commercial e-bike supplier does. 60 V is a bit oddball - which chemistry are you considering? LiCo or LiMn would offer you a 16 cell series pack. LiFe cells would mean an 18s pack.

Cooling - if your pack is well planned from the outset, you won't need cooling. Cell heating only happens when too much current is being drawn from a cell, causing it to heat up. This can be remedied by sizing your pack correctly - 15 Ah would provide plenty of sustained oomph for most ebikes. Another way to do it is to use beefy cables and have good busbar connections. I make a battery using HobbyKing cells with lumps of copper 2 mm thick, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. There is enough copper to sink any heat generated at the tabs, so the heat is wicked away from the cells, rather than being sunk back in.

Get yourself a Cycle Analyst or something similar. Best $150 you will ever spend. Also get yourself a multimeter and a balance charger - they are super handy to have around.

Try to meet up with some folks in your town/city - chances are we're on ES :D
 
Thanks Jonesscg

I'm in Adelaide
I was planning to use lipo batteries. I dont know how you quote these in votage as in charged, discharged or average. So thats why i just said 15s. the 60v was just a guess.

I am getting the spark when i plug in each 5a/hr pack that i have at the moment and then a large one when i plug the last one into the controller. So i would like to know how to build a precharge circuit.

What charger would you recomend?

I had a quick look at your lipo pack board thread. Looks really good and simple.
I assume that when charging these you need to match the votage and then your ballance leads are actually balancing the parallel cells as one?

I have a few projects on but seem to start them and get off track when i hit a snag. Hopefully a cna get into them soon as i have a bit more regular shifts at the moment. Just no money.
I have a hobby king charger 1-6s a few various rating lipo packs. multi meter and clamp meter. so can play a little.

Steve
 
Read a few threads in the battery FAQ section, though it sounds like maybe you have. It can be a lot to take in all at once. BTW 15s lico is in the range we'd consider to be "48v" Your usable voltage range will be about 62v to 53v actually measured, and best if you stop by 55v. Or at least slow way down and start milking it with lots of pedaling below 55v.

KFF happens when you screw up, normaly it's not a problem. What happens to me at least, Is I have some packs that I am series connecting. Starting from + to the controller, you are connecting + to - of each pack, aiming to connect the last - to the controller. If you do this, all will be well, but there will be a spark when the last connection is made to the controller. Not going to burn your hands though.

When you screw it up, you have grabbed the wrong wire from a jumble of them, and instead of connecting + of pack one to pack 2-, you grab a wire that connects pack 1+ to pack 1- !!!! Now you will have a melting connector in your hands, and possibly even set the entire pack on fire by dead shorting it.

The solutions is to be slow and methodical about it when connecting up packs. Do it exactly the same way every time, just like a pilot doing a preflight checklist.

There are threads out there on fitting a resistor to your controller connection, for eliminating the spark when you connect up. I don't consider the connection spark a problem at 48v.

For charging, I'm still a fraidy cat recomending breaking the pack into three sections to charge at 5s with a decent RC charger. You can paralell the whole pack to charge it as one great big 5s pack. Charging done in a fire resistant location, if not outdoors, at least where you can get a shovel and flip that burning pack out the door with a shovel fast if needed. No sleeping, no leaving the house for just a minuite, etc.

Bulk charging, if you choose to, is best done with a back up protection, such as Methods sells. There are some commercially avaliable paralell harneses, Ice Cube 57 makes some nice custom ones, but others are avaliable. EP Buddy is one source ( in the usa though) with a nice selection of paralelling stuff. Have a look just to see what is out there anyway. Making your own is easy too. Just buy 12g wire, and connectors or your choice for the main y harnesses, and chop up Jst extensions to make the y harnesses for your balance wires, or balance charger using a paraboard.

Monitoring, like charging, has as many methods you can use as there are shoe styles, all more or less good. The gold standard is monitoring every cell or every set of paralelled cells in the whole pack. Three cellog 8's would accomplish this. In addition you want a main pack voltage readout, to give you a clue when a peek at the cellogs should be done. The main pack readout is idealy done with a cycleanalyst, or at least some type of wattmeter.

A lot of using RC lipo correctly is all about knowing your pack intimately. Once you establish that all the packs with runt cells in them, if any, have been weeded out, then you have a pack you can monitor a lot less. With such a set of packs that I know tend to stay balanced, I can just watch my CA and by knowing what my typical voltage is when I have discharged say half of it measured by the wattmeter, I can smell a rat early if something is not right. What I mean is, if I discharge 4 ah, and my voltage looks low, I get suspicious and get a cellog out of my pocket and start looking for the pack that is lower than it should be.

But if all looks normal on the CA, I can ride till 80% discharged with very few worries that a cell is going too low in there somewhere. The key thing is buy some extra packs, so you can use only the best ones. Then use a cellog or whatever device to get to know every cell by checking voltages often till you get enough cycles on the pack to know very well how it behaves in use.
 
Thanks Dogman
Well written again.
You seem to be able to explain things really simply. I had seached and read some of the forum but as per usual its hard to find exactly whatyou are looking for. Even if you have seen it before as we dart from topic to topic and think ill come back to that.

Steve
 
dogman said:
Read a few threads in the battery FAQ section, though it sounds like maybe you have. It can be a lot to take in all at once. BTW 15s lico is in the range we'd consider to be "48v" Your usable voltage range will be about 62v to 53v actually measured, and best if you stop by 55v. Or at least slow way down and start milking it with lots of pedaling below 55v.

KFF happens when you screw up, normaly it's not a problem. What happens to me at least, Is I have some packs that I am series connecting. Starting from + to the controller, you are connecting + to - of each pack, aiming to connect the last - to the controller. If you do this, all will be well, but there will be a spark when the last connection is made to the controller. Not going to burn your hands though.

When you screw it up, you have grabbed the wrong wire from a jumble of them, and instead of connecting + of pack one to pack 2-, you grab a wire that connects pack 1+ to pack 1- !!!! Now you will have a melting connector in your hands, and possibly even set the entire pack on fire by dead shorting it.

The solutions is to be slow and methodical about it when connecting up packs. Do it exactly the same way every time, just like a pilot doing a preflight checklist.

There are threads out there on fitting a resistor to your controller connection, for eliminating the spark when you connect up. I don't consider the connection spark a problem at 48v.

For charging, I'm still a fraidy cat recomending breaking the pack into three sections to charge at 5s with a decent RC charger. You can paralell the whole pack to charge it as one great big 5s pack. Charging done in a fire resistant location, if not outdoors, at least where you can get a shovel and flip that burning pack out the door with a shovel fast if needed. No sleeping, no leaving the house for just a minuite, etc.

Bulk charging, if you choose to, is best done with a back up protection, such as Methods sells. There are some commercially avaliable paralell harneses, Ice Cube 57 makes some nice custom ones, but others are avaliable. EP Buddy is one source ( in the usa though) with a nice selection of paralelling stuff. Have a look just to see what is out there anyway. Making your own is easy too. Just buy 12g wire, and connectors or your choice for the main y harnesses, and chop up Jst extensions to make the y harnesses for your balance wires, or balance charger using a paraboard.

Monitoring, like charging, has as many methods you can use as there are shoe styles, all more or less good. The gold standard is monitoring every cell or every set of paralelled cells in the whole pack. Three cellog 8's would accomplish this. In addition you want a main pack voltage readout, to give you a clue when a peek at the cellogs should be done. The main pack readout is idealy done with a cycleanalyst, or at least some type of wattmeter.

A lot of using RC lipo correctly is all about knowing your pack intimately. Once you establish that all the packs with runt cells in them, if any, have been weeded out, then you have a pack you can monitor a lot less. With such a set of packs that I know tend to stay balanced, I can just watch my CA and by knowing what my typical voltage is when I have discharged say half of it measured by the wattmeter, I can smell a rat early if something is not right. What I mean is, if I discharge 4 ah, and my voltage looks low, I get suspicious and get a cellog out of my pocket and start looking for the pack that is lower than it should be.

But if all looks normal on the CA, I can ride till 80% discharged with very few worries that a cell is going too low in there somewhere. The key thing is buy some extra packs, so you can use only the best ones. Then use a cellog or whatever device to get to know every cell by checking voltages often till you get enough cycles on the pack to know very well how it behaves in use.

You have learned a lot dogman.

Enough to build and run a real pack made with real deal cells I bet. :)

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=46115

or maybe these :)

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36589

or these ?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=45444

The real deals are here ! :)

It is time for you to step up and become a pack builder ? :)

You are good at explaining stuff and you could help the kids make good packs using better stuff than rc lipo.
 
I'm about ready for it in many ways. I certainly have a lot of worn out batteries laying around nowdays. Even my second ping is about to turn four years old.

Money is the main problem though. Turns out my health problems are finally improving, so I might work more than 12 hours a week next year. I recently found out that sometime in the last two years, while suffering from West Nile virus complications, I also got Lymes disease. No wonder I couldn't get well!!!

Wish list so far.
1. 72v 10 ah of new lipo for the dirt bike. 50c or better this time would be nice!
2 48v 20 ah of pouch a123 for the longtail. It needs to have more capacity and c rate, It loves to use 2000w these days.
3 48v 15 ah of pingbattery for the other commuter. This third pack could be made from anything though, It's just that a new ping would pop right into the existing box.

As you can see, even now I only want to run lipo on the dirt bike. I much prefer lifepo4 for a bike that will charge anywhere anytime.
 
My cell guy is out till jan 8 ?

I am saving up for some more.

Have a lot of scrap to cash in but am waiting for the price to go up in jan.

Really hope I can get some more before he runs out.

I think they solder better when I clean the ends off with a little alcohol after I scratch them up a little with some fine plumbers tape sandpaper.

Use an 80 watt iron turned up to about 140v on a variac. Hot

Got it to where I don't think it takes even 2 seconds to tin them. Maybe 1 second. Fast. :)
 
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