Buying a new battery: your advice sought

Recently I’ve moved to 21700 cells. My last two EM3ev batteries are 35E 18650. Odd that EM3ev seems to only list GA cells currently available. Neptronix and a few other of my trusted sources were critical of GA cells when first available. I haven’t followed up on the latest opinions. 35E have been very reliable packs here. BTW I “Satiate”.
 
21700 50E cells. My first season. I charge at 80-90% and have for as long as I’ve had a satiator. My EM3EV packs gave me 6 years. My Luna and UPP packs <3. I typically charge at 2A but now charge at 4A and 2A with newest packs. I added a second Satiator. I’m convinced a well built pack and Satiator make for the best combination.
 
tomjasz said:
Doug at California eBike sold UPP batteries and we saw an unacceptably high failure rate. Warranty coverage was abysmal. The shop took a beating honoring the warranty. When a UPP battery caused a garage fire UPP was untouchable and shop insurance paid the $50,000 claim.

tomjasz said:
My EM3ev packs have outlived every UPP battery by a couple of years. I did buy another UPP battery but paid more for pure nickel connections, 35E cells, and an upgrade BMS. They can build a better battery. Listed are typically budge5 but they are finally using decent cell separation thanks to larger cases.
UPP uses several brand name li-ion cells including Lishen and BAK. HOWEVER they don't list Molicel among their list of several well-known and respected brands known for manufacturing Grade A cells of consistent quality (LG, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony).

The following are possibly two reasons why Molicel cells are not used in UPP batteries :wink: ...
  • Do you think it's because Molicel only manfactures Grade A & AA cells which UPP can't afford to purchase at a cost that Molicel considers a reasonable quantity discounted price ??
  • Do you think it's because UPP doesn't consider the quality of Molicel cells sufficient enuf to satisfy UPPs Zero Defect QC tolerance specifications ??

ES minds might like to know your best guesstimate why UPP doesn't use Molicel Lion cells ?? Is it possible that EM3ev can't afford to use Molicel Grade A or Automotive Grade AA cells ??
RAW7504-scaled.jpg

With over 40 years’ rechargeable lithium-ion knowhow and innovative technology research and development, MOLICEL® is famous for its excellent power density product which both presents high discharge and fast charge capability, balanced with good energy density. The company has been recognized as the first choice for world leading manufacturers in applications such as sports car/motorcycle, VTOL, aerospace and heavy-duty tools.
4F.png

https://www.advancedbatteriesresearch.com/articles/24566/williams-advanced-engineering-and-molicel-collaborate-on-battery-cells ... https://wae.com/final-prototype-triumph-te-1-project-testing-results-revealed/

Disclaimer: I own two UPP 36V10Ah batteries (no problems), but then i don't abuse them :)
 
Likely most have never heard of Molicel. next, they're overpriced for the eBike market from the pricing I find.
 
tomjasz said:
Likely most have never heard of Molicel. next, they're overpriced for the eBike market from the pricing I find.
See this ES thread posted in April of 2022 for price comparisons ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=115915

Molicel P42A 21700 4200mAh 45A favored for both performance and price ...

IMR - Molicel P42A 21700 4200mAh 45A - $6.99 ($5.75/100)
IMR - Samsung 70T 21700 4000mAh 35A - $7.99 ($6.25/100)
IMR - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4000mAh 40A - $9.99 ($8.50 (/100)
IMR - Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - $9.99 ($9.00/100) ... cost more than 2170
BATTERYJunction - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4000mAh 40A - $10.25 ($8.25/100)
NKON - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4000mAh 40A - €8.45=$9.00 (€7.75/100)

Pricewise the Molicel P28A 18650 2800mAh 35A Battery ($6.99) The 18650BATTERYSTORE rated the P28A as the best all around high energy dense Lion cell in 2022 ... https://www.18650batterystore.com/pages/best-18650-battery-guide

There are so many ES posts about Molicel (e.g. P26A & P42A cells) and Molicel DIY builds one can't begin to count them all.

Has jomjasz so quickly forget about the 107mpg GoKart with a DIY 28S18P build powered by Molicel P26A cells ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=116133

Is it possible that EM3ev decided it wasn't cost effective for the bottomline to use Molicel cells in their battery packs? The Molicel P26A is one of the best cells on the market. The Molicel P26A 35A outperforms even the all-time great VTC5A 2600mAh 25A, and priced $1 less than VTC5A ($7.99 vs $6.99) at IMR.

Alibaba lists Chinese manufactured Molicel P26A from $1.99 - $2.66 (depending on quantity) so it's not that they are all that expensive ... though 99.9% likely Chinese knock-offs ...
alicdn.com/@sc04/kf/He89d2d270be646f7b97f80679b3767e0e/239253576/He89d2d270be646f7b97f80679b3767e0e.jpg?quality=close ... notice "quality=close" at end perhaps impiyng a Chinese knock-off ... https://s.alicdn.com/@sc04/kf/He89d2d270be646f7b97f80679b3767e0e/239253576/He89d2d270be646f7b97f80679b3767e0e.jpg?quality=close
He89d2d270be646f7b97f80679b3767e0e.jpg

Just because the Chinese shrink wrap label says Molicel P26A doesn't make it so. However, it's an indication how popular Molicel P26A, P28A, and P42A cells are that China considers it worth their effort to produce knock-offs for newbies. Noobs (even others that should know better) that think they're getting such a great deal ...

0*P-EodQnRe7W5Wc9q.jpg

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-selling-battery-Rechargeable-LI-ION_1600309383922.html?spm=a2700.details.0.0.74a61a77o3H0B4
 
Even more interesting is the new Molicel P45B cells. if I was looking to build a pack in the near future that'd probably be my choice (although I'd probably wait to see how Pajda's cycle tests compare first if I wasn't in a rush).

eMark said:
Is it possible that EM3ev decided it wasn't cost effective for the bottomline to use Molicel cells in their battery packs? The Molicel P26A is one of the best cells on the market. The Molicel P26A 35A outperforms even the all-time great VTC5A 2600mAh 25A, and priced $1 less than VTC5A ($7.99 vs $6.99) at IMR.

You know, having bought and recommended em3ev over the years, it really is kind of strange that their battery pack offerings haven't changed or expanded much seemingly in quite a long time. I imagine most of their customers are just looking for reliable low-to-mid performance so the newest high power cell technology isn't necessarily sought after, maybe. For those looking for a pre-built solution with the latest and greatest though, em3ev's battery selection leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe importation laws to HK make certain cell manufacturers unprofitable. Pure shot-in-the-dark speculation.

Just mild curiosity speaking out loud.
 
How about this cell.
BAK N18650CNP 18650 30A FLAT TOP 2500MAH
BAK
$ 2.99
I use the battery kit N.E.S.E. from https://endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19784
And the cells wear to big and had to take off wrappers and buy rings for the positive side.
He said he can make them a percentage bigger.
So not all18650 cells are the same size.
 
vanturion said:
Even more interesting is the new Molicel P45B cells. if I was looking to build a pack in the near future that'd probably be my choice (although I'd probably wait to see how Pajda's cycle tests compare first if I wasn't in a rush.
https://www.molicel.com/inr21700-p45b/ ... more than a few DIY enthusiasts would love to build a P45B pack ...

Molicel has three different style P45B shrink wrap labels. The above one with red dot logo; A black label P45B which may be automotive Grade AA; and their a generic P45B gray label. It's almost as if Molicel is actually encouraging counterfeit P45B cells. Is Gray label P45B a lower-priced Molicel sub-par Grade A/B cell for us DIY builders? It's the cell for sale by Batemo GmbH of Karlsruhe, Germany ... https://www.batemo.de/products/batemo-cell-library/
Molicel_INR21700P45B_virtual.png.webp

They aren't cheap at Alibaba priced here at $10 ... https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Original-Grade-A-Power-Cell-Molicel_1600455089425.html ... https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Arrivals-INR-21700-P45B-4500mAh_1600454118931.html ... $7.50 quantity 10-99 (maybe questionable quality) :wink:

Bench Test Results: Molicel P45B - 50A 4500mAh 21700…an extraordinary cell! ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=116190
vanturion said:
You know, having bought and recommended em3ev over the years, it really is kind of strange that their battery pack offerings haven't changed or expanded much seemingly in quite a long time.
R&D funds may be tight with UPP acquiring more market share and EM3ev loosing market share? If that's the situation with too much inventory then the last thing they can afford is more new battery pack offerings.

They can't afford to have a US customer relations office or warehouse space in Chino, CA - thereby hurting their sales.
 
eMark said:
Molicel has three different style P45B shrink wrap labels. The above one with red dot logo; A black label P45B which may be automotive Grade AA; and their a generic P45B gray label. It's almost as if Molicel is actually encouraging counterfeit P45B cells. Is Gray label P45B a lower-priced Molicel sub-par Grade A/B cell for us DIY builders?

I didn't know that about the grading differentiation, thanks. So I take it only OEMs get access to the AA-quality cells then? Interesting. I wonder if that's why my gray-label P42A split packs consistently measure over 400 mAh difference in total Amp-Hours charged when I charge them up. That they're somewhat sub-grade A then, although I'm unclear what specifically delineates each grade.

I know there was a big kerfuffle in the solar-LiFePO4 DIY industry where the supposedly Grade A LiFePO4 batteries people were buying from overnight Chinese vendors were actually Grade B or much worse rejected Automotive-grade cells whose production was and is subsidized by the Chinese government. Myself having purchased some of these "Grade A" cells for a project, I am a little more sensitive to the battery gradation topic now.

eMark said:
They aren't cheap at Alibaba priced here at $10 ... https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Original-Grade-A-Power-Cell-Molicel_1600455089425.html ... https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Arrivals-INR-21700-P45B-4500mAh_1600454118931.html ... $7.50 quantity 10-99 (maybe questionable quality) :wink:

Those prices are outrageous. But with inflation and demand, that appears to be where the market is at I guess. I paid almost exactly $5/cell (liionwholesale) for the gray-label P42As last year after shipping. Even today, I personally wouldn't pay more than $5/cell. Batteries were suppose to get cheaper over time... what a laugh.

eMark said:
R&D funds may be tight with UPP acquiring more market share and EM3ev loosing market share? If that's the situation with too much inventory then the last thing they can afford is more new battery pack offerings.

They can't afford to have a US customer relations office or warehouse space in Chino, CA - thereby hurting their sales.

Could be, maybe they're sitting on a warehouse full of Panasonic GAs. In comparison tests, I've never been impressed with Panasonic cells so it's just a weird situation from my POV for a company who otherwise builds high quality packs.
 
And how many battery builders pay $6 to $7 USD for a cell? Blather. Maybe EM3ev does better selling to an OEM than PIA end users?
 
It's interesting to me seeing the join dates of EM3ev speculators and critics. Paul was supplying high-quality batteries to members a decade before you all were here. AND with stellar reports. Never mind me, carry on...
 
vanturion said:
Those prices are outrageous. But with inflation and demand, that appears to be where the market is at I guess. I paid almost exactly $5/cell (liionwholesale) for the gray-label P42As last year after shipping. Even today, I personally wouldn't pay more than $5/cell. Batteries were suppose to get cheaper over time... what a laugh.
Apparently Aliwho hasn't yet received its first shipment of subpar(counterfeit?) P45Bs :wink:
vanturion said:
I didn't know that about the grading differentiation, thanks. So I take it only OEMs get access to the AA-quality cells then? Interesting. I wonder if that's why my gray-label P42A split packs consistently measure over 400 mAh difference in total Amp-Hours charged when I charge them up.
IMO, it's a GRAY area with no Industry Standard other than a companies own grading system for what they consider ... Automotive Grade A, Medical Grade A, Military Grade A ... compared to what they consider Consumer Grade A/B.

Doubtful there is any ironclad Industry Standard to differeniate Grade A from Grade B. Even moreso with China in the mix ... not that they can't produce just as good a cell (QC) as the next guy. They're capable of manufacturing a counterfeit cell that's just as good as an authentic Grade A (besides costing less). A game that's as competitive as Aliey-Oop. Whether to buy a new UPP or EM3EV is as much personal preference, like deciding which new car to buy.

One hundred unused brand name Li-ion cells from Battery Hookup for $200 (in storage for a few years) may be just as good or better than 100 brand name Li-ion cells from AliEx or AliBa for $200 ... maybe overstock in storage for a few years ... besides the possibility of being counterfeits :( ... BUYER BEWARE!
 
tomjasz said:
It's interesting to me seeing the join dates of EM3ev speculators and critics. Paul was supplying high-quality batteries to members a decade before you all were here. AND with stellar reports. Never mind me, carry on...

Not allowed to speculate on public customer-facing business decisions here? OK... Personally I just find it curious and an interesting topic of discussion from a customer-centric point of view. Too lazy to read back, but I don't think anyone's criticizing their assembly quality or prestige, just the battery choice or specifically lack thereof. It's quite odd because you would think a stellar pack building outfit would be keeping up with improved higher energy and power cells. That they're aren't and haven't every time I've checked for quite some time strikes me as notable, a peculiarity.

And pulling forum rank is kinda silly, not everyone has the same pseudonym they started with - been lurking since 2014. Interest waxes and wanes with time.

tomjasz said:
Maybe EM3ev does better selling to an OEM than PIA end users?

Could be, now that I think about it I can't imagine dealing with random international DIY customers with all of their potential issues setting up custom e-bikes is most peoples' idea of a good time hahaha.
 
eMark said:
Doubtful there is any ironclad Industry Standard to differeniate Grade A from Grade B. Even moreso with China in the mix ... not that they can't produce just as good a cell (QC) as the next guy. They're capable of manufacturing a counterfeit cell that's just as good as an authentic Grade A (besides costing less). A game that's as competitive as Aliey-Oop. Whether to buy a new UPP or EM3EV is as much personal preference, like deciding which new car to buy.

One hundred unused brand name Li-ion cells from Battery Hookup for $200 (in storage for a few years) may be just as good or better than 100 brand name Li-ion cells from AliEx or AliBa for $200 ... maybe overstock in storage for a few years ... besides the possibility of being counterfeits :( ... BUYER BEWARE!

It sounds like you're not a fan of making important purchases of critical safety components (batteries) from Chinese markets. Haha, you won't catch me on the other side of that argument. Plenty of reputable US vendors with established and trustworthy manufacturing or distribution relationships to choose from here. Even so, I think there's room for improvement from some US battery vendors as I remember the fairly well-known battery tester Mooch getting some counterfeit cells from an otherwise reputable US vendor before and documenting the experience.

It'd be great if local battery vendors were choosing cells at random to test from each of the distributions they receive to ensure quality is always being delivered. Unknown how many go to the level to ensure their customers are being served quality cells, but even if they are doing it it's not like the results would ever be published to the public if they found discrepancies.

Anyway, if anyone's curious - I had the Automotive Grade vs Grade "B" LiFePO4 video still linked in my browser history. It's a pretty interesting discussion and show and tell if only tangentially related to the average 18650 and 21700 buyer's experience.
 
"Plenty of reputable US vendors with established and trustworthy manufacturing or distribution relationships to choose from here. "

please share, who are they?
 
tomjasz said:
"Plenty of reputable US vendors with established and trustworthy manufacturing or distribution relationships to choose from here. "

please share, who are they?

I've had good experiences with both liionwholesale and 18650batterystore, great even with the former allowing me an easy return with a return shipping label in favor of the P42As I eventually ended up with. When I was in the market, I tended to keep my eyes open with other US cell vendors as well like bulkbattery. In fact, I see they're having a sale on Samsung 40Ts for $4.30/cell, which is actually a pretty good price for a great battery. While I can't speak to their reputation having never been a customer, it's easy enough to place an order for one or two cells to run some capacity, heat, and internal resistance tests to provide some degree of assurance before the a big purchase. The equipment is relatively affordable and accessible if you didn't want to rely upon reputation alone too. Actually considering their prices seem possibly lower than where the rest of the industry is at nowadays, physically verifying cell performance from this vendor would be advisable.

The main thing with favoring (reputable) US vendors besides avoiding counterfeits/rewraps is actually having a functional/accessible return policy should there be an issue.
 
Nice links, thanks, but I thought the discussion was regarding finished packs.
 
tomjasz said:
Nice links, thanks, but I thought the discussion was regarding finished packs.

You're probably right, but discussions on battery cells always pique the interest. I also like to think the mentality of "if you want something done right..." is well suited to obtaining a safe and reliable PEV battery pack and in the spirit of the forum. Plus, all the info for doing it right is already documented by the OG trail-blazers here, just a matter of time + research for newbies. As for reputable domestic pack builders (besides Luna if they are building packs locally, which I have no personal experience with and can't comment on), I'm sure they're out there, but they are likely prohibitively expensive for most.

ebuilder said:
Thanks for sharing your battery cell buying experience and links on ES vanturion.
Much appreciated. :thumb:
PS. will add, great advice about buying practices and testing perhaps a small sample of cells before purchasing 50 more of a build.

You're welcome, just to add a little bit more - here's a link to Mooch's bench tests characterizing cell performance which is a great resource to baseline your battery tests against. Pajda's threads here as well are excellent for that too, which I think he's paying top-euro for individual cells from the reputable vendor NKON so you can be assured your comparison will be pitted against known genuine cells.
 
Those cell prices are high enough too make good professionally built packs available at livable prices.

Luna doesn’t build all their packs. They’ve let people believe they do but it’s sadly not accurate.

I have welders, test platforms, cells and a dozen or so BMS. But i just don’t see the economy in building. I’ll staybeith specifying my pack components and having someone else build. My EM3ev and Grin packs have been the longest lasting and problem free. IMO we get what we pay for. My Grinspecter, 1010B, and misc cases and supplies will all be found in the for sale section next month.
 
tomjasz said:
I have welders, test platforms, cells and a dozen or so BMS. But i just don’t see the economy in building. I’ll staybeith specifying my pack components and having someone else build. My EM3ev and Grin packs have been the longest lasting and problem free. IMO we get what we pay for. My Grinspecter, 1010B, and misc cases and supplies will all be found in the for sale section next month.

I can't disagree with any of that. I have 3 EM3ev packs amongst my family, and anything Grin is fantastic for what it is. I wish they catered to high-power builds/builders as well, but it's completely understandable why they don't.

Yeah, with you there. Takes a lot of time to do things right. Well it's a labor of pain*cough* love, I mean love, kinda thing :wink:
 
tomjasz said:
But EM3ev is a superior builder. I did a custom UPP when EM3ev was backlogged and slow as heck.
Would have never heard about EM3ev Chinese batteries if not for your posts and distain for UPP Chinese batteries.
Amazon lists a ton of UPP batteries as well as other Chinese brands: YOSE, ANKLOUS, QZF and VISET(shown below) ...

71XcpqZgrFS._AC_SY450_.jpg


So many options: 3-36V Ah options, 3-48V Ah options, 2-52V Ah options ...

718qxmlho1S._AC_SY450_.jpg


81jghO2+dJS._AC_SY450_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Electric-Scooter-Lithium-Waterproof/dp/B096V674GL/ref=sr_1_6?crid=KUIBCPPBQKT2&keywords=em3ev%2Bebike%2Bbattery&qid=1663680416&sprefix=EM3ev%2Bbattery%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-6&th=1

It's a conumdrum WHY EM3ev batteries aren't on Amazon??? Are we to believe that EM3ev is so far backlogged in orders that there is no way they could keep up with demand if listed on Amazon or does Amazon think the batteries are too expensive?? Somewhere, somehow EM3ev dropped the ball and are now being left in the dust of other Chinese brands that are more savvy when it comes to eye-catching marketing and prices of their ebike batteries listed on Amazon.

Even with my battery knowledge i'd probably buy the above 36V 12Ah for $197.99 for my grandson's ebike. Even knowing that it may not be 12Ah? Do i really trust my grandson with a more expensive 36V battery from EM3ev - :wink: Might actually buy it (via Amazon) as much for curiosity just to see how many useable cycles it's good for ???

THE NAME OF THE GAME IS MARKETING ... E3mev doesn't even have warehouse space for US stock in Chino, CA.

Disclaimer: Had never heard of the above brand VISET until doing a search of Chinese ebike batteries this morn. Like ebuilder posted the above battery is an example of one that would catch the attention of newbies ... even someone that is well aware of BUYER BEWARE. Never-the-less grandpa decides to give it a try. Afterall it does look cool and under $200. How can EM3ev compete with UPP and other unknown Chinese batteries with their slick Amazon Ads and potential customer interest with 44 questions and answers. Yes, there is always at least a 10% chance the battery is a dud with no guarantee that you'll get a refund, but Amazon is better than AliExpress or Alibaba
 
Cellman EM3ev was here long before you and for many years the most reliable source. Take a look back into ES history by searching his name and company. The rest isn’t worth taking the bait and taking the piss over.

Some here have lots of experience selling, supporting, and even repairing batteries. And have seen the differences in quality and components.

Imagine if you will a company has enough of the market to be happy. Chino? Too funny…
 
To be unfront honest no more impressed by your on-going pro EM3ev posts than i am with your sporty avatar.
Actually your pro EM3ev posts are getting to be the same ol' same ol' ...
file.php

Others too may be wondering why you seem to be the only one so obsessed with Chinese EM3ev batteries ???

If they are as superior as you claim then there would be more than 2 or 3 ES faithful stalwarts praising EM3ev.
 
Apparently you hadn't read my previous post 1 minute before your lengthy post. How many other ES members have praised EM3ev batteries? To my knowledge not many other than 2or 3. Your comparison of EM3ev batteries to Bafang Ultra Max or BBS02 doesn't ring true. For you to give the impression that Amazon only sells Chinese junk batteries because they don't list EM3ev ebike batteries is as close to a lie as you could get. Amazon also lists the BBS03 and BBSO2B including ...

28862ca9-7ed1-4215-8333-79cde7c9cc04.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg


Truthfully you know as well as others that not everyone needs to buy a EM3ev ... a SMILE may be good enuf :)
 
Back
Top