BiGH
100 kW
sounds pretty good.max speed of 40kph sounds good... 40kpm sounds a bit too quick! (2400kph)powerdog69 said:
Call to all Australian e-bike enthusiasts!
- Thread starter powerdog69
- Start date
getadirtbike
10 W
Or just limit everyone under 15 to 200W. Hard to regulate though.
The rest sounds good to me
The rest sounds good to me
Freddyflatfoot
1 kW
Albie,
What do you do?
I was giving this some more thought and research, and come across an article regarding the new Schwinn e-bikes. Apparently they are a 250 watts, and therefore not legal. Therefore, they are NOT being imported here to Oz. There are a good number of commercially available e-bikes in the UK/EU, that are 250 watts. Only 50 watts more, but technically illegal here in Oz.
On the same site, there was a forum, where there were several people saying that they wanted e-bikes, but didn't where to buy them, or could even find out where to buy one!
http://envirofuel.com.au/2007/07/02/schwinn-electric-bicycles/#comment-10747
So, I guess where we need to lobby the relevant Governments, is to allow an increase in power to at least 250 watts, to allow for commercially available e-bikes that can be readily imported into the country.
That could be the absolute best thing we could do to support the use of e-bikes in this country.
Most of us a 'tinkerers', and can deal with some of the issues that we come across, as far as reliability is concerned. But the general public want something they can ride, 'straight out of the box', and have good product support.
That means commercially available bikes, with a good support structure, and moderate power, so as to make the bike more 'user friendly', as far as ease of use and reliability.
Smaller motors mean smaller batteries, and better range, and lower weight. Maybe not so good hill climbing ability, but geared systems driving through the BB, or geared hubs, address that issue for most situations. It also makes for a bike that does not weigh much more than a normal bike, so more useful for the average user, that may be an elderly person, or a housewife, or a small woman, or someone who lives in a unit, so needs a bike that can fulfil their needs and be easily handled from people of all walks of life.
Not everyone is a speed demon, and 30 kph (or 250w) is plenty fast enough for Mr and Mrs Joe Average.
Notice I said needs, and wants. That is what needs to be clearly defined. What speed/power combination is enough to satisfy the needs of the general public.
Think about how fast you were riding before you got your e-bike? Now, we all know that 250 watts is going to be faster than that! And with much better hill climbing ability. Do we need more than that? Maybe not. Do we want more than that? Of course we do! But then we would all like to be able to drive around faster than the posted speed limit, don't we?
If we have a reasonable lobby, we have a much greater chance of launching a successful campaign.
What do you do?
I was giving this some more thought and research, and come across an article regarding the new Schwinn e-bikes. Apparently they are a 250 watts, and therefore not legal. Therefore, they are NOT being imported here to Oz. There are a good number of commercially available e-bikes in the UK/EU, that are 250 watts. Only 50 watts more, but technically illegal here in Oz.
On the same site, there was a forum, where there were several people saying that they wanted e-bikes, but didn't where to buy them, or could even find out where to buy one!
http://envirofuel.com.au/2007/07/02/schwinn-electric-bicycles/#comment-10747
So, I guess where we need to lobby the relevant Governments, is to allow an increase in power to at least 250 watts, to allow for commercially available e-bikes that can be readily imported into the country.
That could be the absolute best thing we could do to support the use of e-bikes in this country.
Most of us a 'tinkerers', and can deal with some of the issues that we come across, as far as reliability is concerned. But the general public want something they can ride, 'straight out of the box', and have good product support.
That means commercially available bikes, with a good support structure, and moderate power, so as to make the bike more 'user friendly', as far as ease of use and reliability.
Smaller motors mean smaller batteries, and better range, and lower weight. Maybe not so good hill climbing ability, but geared systems driving through the BB, or geared hubs, address that issue for most situations. It also makes for a bike that does not weigh much more than a normal bike, so more useful for the average user, that may be an elderly person, or a housewife, or a small woman, or someone who lives in a unit, so needs a bike that can fulfil their needs and be easily handled from people of all walks of life.
Not everyone is a speed demon, and 30 kph (or 250w) is plenty fast enough for Mr and Mrs Joe Average.
Notice I said needs, and wants. That is what needs to be clearly defined. What speed/power combination is enough to satisfy the needs of the general public.
Think about how fast you were riding before you got your e-bike? Now, we all know that 250 watts is going to be faster than that! And with much better hill climbing ability. Do we need more than that? Maybe not. Do we want more than that? Of course we do! But then we would all like to be able to drive around faster than the posted speed limit, don't we?
If we have a reasonable lobby, we have a much greater chance of launching a successful campaign.
getadirtbike
10 W
My theory is... Aim high. That way you've got room to move and bargain. At worst they can meet you somewhere in between.
If you ask for 750W and get 750W or even only 500W then that's awesome.
If you ask for 750W and only get 250W then that's better then nothing.
If you ask for 250W and get 250W it'd be kind dumb to go back and ask for 300W or 500W a few months later.... plust it would be time consuming.
There are plenty of kits that are rated at more than 250W, and if 500W is good enough for Canada, and 750W good enough for the USA, then why not aim for what they've got?
If people still want to buy 250W bikes then they could do that. But for those of us who want more, we'd still have a choice too.
If you ask for 750W and get 750W or even only 500W then that's awesome.
If you ask for 750W and only get 250W then that's better then nothing.
If you ask for 250W and get 250W it'd be kind dumb to go back and ask for 300W or 500W a few months later.... plust it would be time consuming.
There are plenty of kits that are rated at more than 250W, and if 500W is good enough for Canada, and 750W good enough for the USA, then why not aim for what they've got?
If people still want to buy 250W bikes then they could do that. But for those of us who want more, we'd still have a choice too.
Freddyflatfoot
1 kW
I've discussed this elsewhere on this and other forums, and the first thing to decide is whether you want a power assist bicycle, or a psuedo moped/motor bike.
My personal view, is that if you have a bike that is capable of 2000 w +, then you have a psuedo motor bike. There are plenty on this and other groups that are way above our limits, including the US limits! If you want a motor bike, then go and buy one, otherwise work with power assist levels.
At those levels, you are not adding much, if anything at all! The bike then becomes a motor vehicle.
When I mentioned 250 watts, that was as a minimum, to allow for bikes that are legal in the UK/EU, to be readily available here in Oz, without any form of modification by the manufacturer/supplier/importer.
Remember, the power assist levels that are in legislation, were made as a concession to having some form of motor assist on a push bike, without requiring any form of registration, or licence.
What we are asking for, is an increase in that power concession.
the question is, what is a reasonable concession?
Bear in mind, that whatever concession we would be looking for from the Government, would also be reflected in the ICE version.
Or do we lobby the government to differentiate between ICE and electric power? As it stands, both are treated the same when referred to power assist for a bicycle.
If we ask the Government to differentiate between ICE and electric, we must also be prepared to be able to debate the differences in both types of powerplant.
We must also bear in mind the type of polical climate that we are currently in, in relation to road safety. We are currently seeing 'P' platers having quite severe power restrictions placed on them. We are seeing hoon drivers getting their cars seized for short periods.
And we think that we can then ask for a nearly fourfold increase in allowable power, and at the same time not being subject to rego or licensing?
That Monash Uni paper will probably hold a lot of water in relation to any submission to a government.
Another isssue to consider, is being able to satisfy the various motoring and road safety bodies, that the proposal will not have a negative impact on road safety.
There are a lot of issues to consider, and simply saying, 'aim higher and be happy if we get less', is an oversimplification of a complex process.
My view would be to determine what you want, in exact terms, and then being able to justify it at every turn. You would also need a lot of empirical data, so be prepared for a lot of research, especially in our own environment.
We really need to get our motoring and road safety groups on board, without them, we will probably achieve very little.
My personal view, is that if you have a bike that is capable of 2000 w +, then you have a psuedo motor bike. There are plenty on this and other groups that are way above our limits, including the US limits! If you want a motor bike, then go and buy one, otherwise work with power assist levels.
At those levels, you are not adding much, if anything at all! The bike then becomes a motor vehicle.
When I mentioned 250 watts, that was as a minimum, to allow for bikes that are legal in the UK/EU, to be readily available here in Oz, without any form of modification by the manufacturer/supplier/importer.
Remember, the power assist levels that are in legislation, were made as a concession to having some form of motor assist on a push bike, without requiring any form of registration, or licence.
What we are asking for, is an increase in that power concession.
the question is, what is a reasonable concession?
Bear in mind, that whatever concession we would be looking for from the Government, would also be reflected in the ICE version.
Or do we lobby the government to differentiate between ICE and electric power? As it stands, both are treated the same when referred to power assist for a bicycle.
If we ask the Government to differentiate between ICE and electric, we must also be prepared to be able to debate the differences in both types of powerplant.
We must also bear in mind the type of polical climate that we are currently in, in relation to road safety. We are currently seeing 'P' platers having quite severe power restrictions placed on them. We are seeing hoon drivers getting their cars seized for short periods.
And we think that we can then ask for a nearly fourfold increase in allowable power, and at the same time not being subject to rego or licensing?
That Monash Uni paper will probably hold a lot of water in relation to any submission to a government.
Another isssue to consider, is being able to satisfy the various motoring and road safety bodies, that the proposal will not have a negative impact on road safety.
There are a lot of issues to consider, and simply saying, 'aim higher and be happy if we get less', is an oversimplification of a complex process.
My view would be to determine what you want, in exact terms, and then being able to justify it at every turn. You would also need a lot of empirical data, so be prepared for a lot of research, especially in our own environment.
We really need to get our motoring and road safety groups on board, without them, we will probably achieve very little.
Jay64
100 kW
Again, not to butt in too much as my opinion is slightly skewed towards the US way of thinking, but I have some ideas from reading what you guys have said here. First of all, I would like to say that you guys need to get a lobby group on your side. I'm sure that things are relatively the same as they are here in that regard. It would seem like you guys should already have some environmental groups that are lobbying your government to make things more 'green'. Get them on your side. They already have the connections in the government, which aide to talk to in order to get in the ear of the politician, which politician will more likely be willing to hear your case, etc. I think it would be a good idea to push for the change that will give the everyday person more availability to purchase an ebike and get to using it. All the environmental laws don't make a difference if the people can't implement them. If there are a bunch of bikes that are sold at 350w, push for that limit, if there are a bunch sold for 400w, then push for that limit. I know Americans are usually a bad example, but to show that it works here and also in Canada, should have some weight as far as proving that public safety can handle the increase. I mean, c'mon, "if those ignorant americans can safely operate 750w, then we should more then be able to handle 400w or more." 
As far as the public transportation problem mentioned earlier. An idea to push for would be similar to what they have in L.A. California. The buses are equiped with racks for bicycles to be mounted on the outside. Sure it takes a slightly longer time at the bus stops for someone to mount up their bike or to remove it, but it saves a ton of room inside the bus. Maybe something similar to that could be implemented on the trains there.
As far as the public transportation problem mentioned earlier. An idea to push for would be similar to what they have in L.A. California. The buses are equiped with racks for bicycles to be mounted on the outside. Sure it takes a slightly longer time at the bus stops for someone to mount up their bike or to remove it, but it saves a ton of room inside the bus. Maybe something similar to that could be implemented on the trains there.
Freddyflatfoot
1 kW
Jay,
I'm trying hard not to refer to 'greenies'
I am not a greenie, and do not subscribe to their somewhat skewed beliefs. I do, however, belive in being environmentally responsible with our resources, and looking after this earthly home that we sojourn in.
I'm trying hard not to refer to 'greenies'
I am not a greenie, and do not subscribe to their somewhat skewed beliefs. I do, however, belive in being environmentally responsible with our resources, and looking after this earthly home that we sojourn in.
Dr. Shock
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2007
- Messages
- 274
California allows 1,000 watts within the definition of electric bicycle (California Vehicle Code Section 406), so you might use that as a standard instead of the US Federal 750 watts. It is hard to see what relevance the Federal standard has, since there is no Federal enforcement of traffic laws (except on Military bases, and even there, they go by state laws.) California is the most populous state, and I'd guess the biggest market for electric bikes in the US, so you might credibly point to the standard it adopted as your model. It does still have a 20 mph max. for speed, which sucks. Good luck.
Freddyflatfoot
1 kW
Actually Dr Shock, you have actually mentioned something that could be a real issue, and that is the idea of an imposed speed limit. Here in Oz, there is no speed limit for bicycles, human powered, or assist, except for the posted speed limit. Yeah, I know 200 watts will probably not get you over 33 kph (20mph), but with pedaling on a geared system, you can. So theoretically you can have assist up to whatever you can pedal.
So here might be the rub, the Government might allow 750 watts, and then impose an electronically imposed speed limit of, say, 30 kph. With corresponding fines for tampering with said systems. Possibly in a similar vein to the speed limiters that our heavy transport industry are subject to.
I really can't see the benefit in adapting a system like this. My 250 watt system can do the 30 kph without probs, and my 350 watt trike can go over 40 kph.
And I can travel at those speeds legally.
I have already said that if you are responsible, and moderately powered, (or overpowered!), then I would expect absolutely no problems from a law enforcement perspective. If the e-bike was grossly overpowered, then I would expect that the book would be thrown at you! That would be my take if I were to intercept you, and I see myself as a 'reasonable' police officer.
So back to my original take on this thread, and from what I have gleaned from other forums, we need to have the Oz market opened up to allow the use of most of the commercially available e-bikes that are available O/S, not just the ones we see coming from China!
That way, we have a much better chance of getting e-bikes to the masses, which, after all, is the main idea of this thread?
Imagine what we could do to alleviate the congestion on our city's trains, trams and buses!
Oh, we would be better suited if the idea of electric assist is separated from ICE assist bikes in legislation!
With the progresses that are being made in lightweight battery tech, the business of e-bikes bodes well!
We might just need to re-focus on the real issues, and see what we can really do, in a positive manner, to progress the idea of e-bikes for commuting here in Oz.
Wouldn't it be great, to be on the forefront of a fundamental change in our commuting styles in this country?
So here might be the rub, the Government might allow 750 watts, and then impose an electronically imposed speed limit of, say, 30 kph. With corresponding fines for tampering with said systems. Possibly in a similar vein to the speed limiters that our heavy transport industry are subject to.
I really can't see the benefit in adapting a system like this. My 250 watt system can do the 30 kph without probs, and my 350 watt trike can go over 40 kph.
And I can travel at those speeds legally.
I have already said that if you are responsible, and moderately powered, (or overpowered!), then I would expect absolutely no problems from a law enforcement perspective. If the e-bike was grossly overpowered, then I would expect that the book would be thrown at you! That would be my take if I were to intercept you, and I see myself as a 'reasonable' police officer.
So back to my original take on this thread, and from what I have gleaned from other forums, we need to have the Oz market opened up to allow the use of most of the commercially available e-bikes that are available O/S, not just the ones we see coming from China!
That way, we have a much better chance of getting e-bikes to the masses, which, after all, is the main idea of this thread?
Imagine what we could do to alleviate the congestion on our city's trains, trams and buses!
Oh, we would be better suited if the idea of electric assist is separated from ICE assist bikes in legislation!
With the progresses that are being made in lightweight battery tech, the business of e-bikes bodes well!
We might just need to re-focus on the real issues, and see what we can really do, in a positive manner, to progress the idea of e-bikes for commuting here in Oz.
Wouldn't it be great, to be on the forefront of a fundamental change in our commuting styles in this country?
powerdog69
1 mW
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2007
- Messages
- 15
okay a car can potentially go over 200kph with a powerful motor of 150 kW on a full license. but most people don't drive at these speeds on the roads they adhere to the speed restrictions they're just needs to be a speed restrictions set on ebikes say between 30 and 40kph and a power restriction between 500-750watts anyone caught over the set ebike speed will be fined. anyone using a ebike needs to have their learners/probationary/full car licence that way is proven they know the road rules. This also means that no one under the age of 15 will be able too use an ebike. by the way their are lot of overweight kids that need the exercise and when I was a kid I was riding my bike everywhere so under 15 is can get some exercise no ebike's for them lol. I think restricting the age on any new ebike law is essential, nobody wants to see a young kid be seriously hurt with a powerful ebike.
cheers
powerdog
cheers
powerdog
Dr. Shock
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2007
- Messages
- 274
"So here might be the rub, the Government might allow 750 watts, and then impose an electronically imposed speed limit of, say, 30 kph. "
That's how the California statute reads. 1,000 watts, but the bike must not be capable of doing more than 20 mph, and it can't be capable of exceeding that max speed with the rider pedalling. Needless to say, this is no fun.
The only thing I can think of to say to any legislators considering this kind of restriction, (other than "here's a suitcase full of cash, courtesy of the Chinese ebike manufacturers' association") is that it is likely unduly to tie up law enforcement resources in trying to determine whether the bike is capable of going over a certain speed, and if so, whether pedals add anything. The cops have better stuff to do, and if they don't, the taxpayers should fire a few of them instead of making more work. Just let them look at the motor label, and if it says 1,000 watts or less, they can let it go and get back to solving crimes.
If fact, even if you can add a bit of speed to a 1 hp+ ebike by pedalling, it won't be much under real world conditions. Not worth making the legislation complicated to enforce.
That's how the California statute reads. 1,000 watts, but the bike must not be capable of doing more than 20 mph, and it can't be capable of exceeding that max speed with the rider pedalling. Needless to say, this is no fun.
The only thing I can think of to say to any legislators considering this kind of restriction, (other than "here's a suitcase full of cash, courtesy of the Chinese ebike manufacturers' association") is that it is likely unduly to tie up law enforcement resources in trying to determine whether the bike is capable of going over a certain speed, and if so, whether pedals add anything. The cops have better stuff to do, and if they don't, the taxpayers should fire a few of them instead of making more work. Just let them look at the motor label, and if it says 1,000 watts or less, they can let it go and get back to solving crimes.
If fact, even if you can add a bit of speed to a 1 hp+ ebike by pedalling, it won't be much under real world conditions. Not worth making the legislation complicated to enforce.
solarbbq2003
10 kW
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 500
200watts is stupid stupid stupid,
at the moment I think i'm the only person in australia selling ebike kits/ parts etc that is being upfront about power levels,
i have to sell all my gear for off road use only due to the 200watt limit. All other retailers are keeping their heads low on this as they all know they are selling illegally , there is a supreme court case going on in nsw by one ebike retailer over the 200watt limit against the police.
When i began selling ebike bits and pieces about 4 or 5 years ago ( maybe a bit longer) I decided not to go with full ebikes due to the 200watt law, if someone dies on the road and you've sold them an ebike saying its under 200watts peak power your in a for a big problemo. Chances of someone dying in a crash are pretty good I would think ,it will happen at some time most likely.
I think Peter Garrett in sydney would be good person to get the ball rolling in parliament, there is alot of lobbying going on already, hoping new govt will be more sensible than previous govt regarding the 200watt law. I think it should be 1kw and speed limited is a sensible approach for practical transportation ( 1kw continuous that is).
At the moment as far as I know there is no directive for police to check ebikes as long as it looks like a bike, there was a directive put out on moped style ebikes, to pull them over and fine them, relating to the supreme court case thats still not resolved. Most of those cases ( and a damn lot of them have been thrown out of court pending the supreme court ruling).
Not sure if police are still pulling over moped style ebikes, but if it looks like a pushbike and has a motor there are no problems as yet.
The present 200watt peak power limit means the continuous power is around 140watts!! I've adjusted some bikes to 200watt max to see how they perform, they can hardly take off by their own power. The only ebike on the market in australia that is conforming to the 200watt peak limit is the avanti bike with motor from darwin uni, try one of those and you can see exactly what 200watt is like. So basically under present laws all ebike sellers are breaking the law except avanti,
the retailers will tell you otherwise of course, but peak power is very easy to work out:
Power = volts * amps * efficiency
volts is usually 24, 36 or 48v
amps is max amps usually written on controller ( or can measure with meter when motor under load)
efficiency is : 70% for brushed motors and 80% for brushless motors ( approx)
Take for example: oh lets say Elation ebikes...........
volts = 36v
amps = 40amp
efficiency= say first model brushed motor 70% ( 0.7)
P = 36 * 40 * 0.7 = 1008watts
or using 30amp controller on 24volts
P = 24 * 30 * 0.7 = 504 watts peak power
either way power is well over 200watts peak, all motors on my website I say the exact power ratings and they are all over 200watts peak, hence its necessary for me to have a legal business to sell for off road use only.
In effect the present govt laws are stopping the widespread introduction of ebikes into australia, for whatever reasons the laws were introduced they are way out of step with what is needed to have even a chance at changing transport options in australia in a legal manner.
So as it stands at the moment the australian government is anti ebike . They are forcing ebike sellers to operate illegally, making ebike sellers risk being sued if a fatally occurs on the roads, they are wasting large sums of money in a supreme court case. They are hindering options to develop environmentally sensible transport options.
I think one of the current affairs programs in australia would be a good way to get publicity on this issue.
at the moment I think i'm the only person in australia selling ebike kits/ parts etc that is being upfront about power levels,
i have to sell all my gear for off road use only due to the 200watt limit. All other retailers are keeping their heads low on this as they all know they are selling illegally , there is a supreme court case going on in nsw by one ebike retailer over the 200watt limit against the police.
When i began selling ebike bits and pieces about 4 or 5 years ago ( maybe a bit longer) I decided not to go with full ebikes due to the 200watt law, if someone dies on the road and you've sold them an ebike saying its under 200watts peak power your in a for a big problemo. Chances of someone dying in a crash are pretty good I would think ,it will happen at some time most likely.
I think Peter Garrett in sydney would be good person to get the ball rolling in parliament, there is alot of lobbying going on already, hoping new govt will be more sensible than previous govt regarding the 200watt law. I think it should be 1kw and speed limited is a sensible approach for practical transportation ( 1kw continuous that is).
At the moment as far as I know there is no directive for police to check ebikes as long as it looks like a bike, there was a directive put out on moped style ebikes, to pull them over and fine them, relating to the supreme court case thats still not resolved. Most of those cases ( and a damn lot of them have been thrown out of court pending the supreme court ruling).
Not sure if police are still pulling over moped style ebikes, but if it looks like a pushbike and has a motor there are no problems as yet.
The present 200watt peak power limit means the continuous power is around 140watts!! I've adjusted some bikes to 200watt max to see how they perform, they can hardly take off by their own power. The only ebike on the market in australia that is conforming to the 200watt peak limit is the avanti bike with motor from darwin uni, try one of those and you can see exactly what 200watt is like. So basically under present laws all ebike sellers are breaking the law except avanti,
the retailers will tell you otherwise of course, but peak power is very easy to work out:
Power = volts * amps * efficiency
volts is usually 24, 36 or 48v
amps is max amps usually written on controller ( or can measure with meter when motor under load)
efficiency is : 70% for brushed motors and 80% for brushless motors ( approx)
Take for example: oh lets say Elation ebikes...........
volts = 36v
amps = 40amp
efficiency= say first model brushed motor 70% ( 0.7)
P = 36 * 40 * 0.7 = 1008watts
or using 30amp controller on 24volts
P = 24 * 30 * 0.7 = 504 watts peak power
either way power is well over 200watts peak, all motors on my website I say the exact power ratings and they are all over 200watts peak, hence its necessary for me to have a legal business to sell for off road use only.
In effect the present govt laws are stopping the widespread introduction of ebikes into australia, for whatever reasons the laws were introduced they are way out of step with what is needed to have even a chance at changing transport options in australia in a legal manner.
So as it stands at the moment the australian government is anti ebike . They are forcing ebike sellers to operate illegally, making ebike sellers risk being sued if a fatally occurs on the roads, they are wasting large sums of money in a supreme court case. They are hindering options to develop environmentally sensible transport options.
I think one of the current affairs programs in australia would be a good way to get publicity on this issue.
Freddyflatfoot
1 kW
Brett,
Good to see you back!
You have confirmed what I have said elsewhere on this forum, that our 200 watt limit precludes a very large proportion of commercially available e-bikes, that are widely available O/S.
The 200 watt limit, I believe, was introduced as a way to restrict the size of an ICE that can be attached to a bicycle. Haven't checked the actual history, but I believe the law has been around for quite some time. The same law applies whether you are talking about ICE or electric.
In another thread, there was some discussion about ICE powered bikes being 'outlawed' somewhere overseas.
Not sure if this is the right way to go, but maybe from an environmental perspective, as e-bikes will be perceived as being green.
I believe the law should be changed to reflect the green status of the e-bike, as opposed to the dirty staus of the ICE.
Maybe even have the ICE version outlawed as well?
With the advances in motor/controller technology, and much better/lighter batteries, e-bikes can be seen as a real alternative for 'Mr and Mr's Joe Average' commuter.
Brett has a point about electric motors being rated for 'peak' power and 'continuous' power. Electric motors certainly behave differently than their ICE cousins!
This should be reflected in legislation.
Maybe we could jump on the bandwagon, as some people are seeking to have Segways legalised. Not sure what the power rating of one of these is?
But if they can get up, and use one of these on a footpath, should be a piece of cake to get an increase in allowable power for road use for an e-bike!
Brett, could you enlighten us further as to the issue with the moped style of e-bike? I see these things are flooding into the market from China.
Good to see you back!
You have confirmed what I have said elsewhere on this forum, that our 200 watt limit precludes a very large proportion of commercially available e-bikes, that are widely available O/S.
The 200 watt limit, I believe, was introduced as a way to restrict the size of an ICE that can be attached to a bicycle. Haven't checked the actual history, but I believe the law has been around for quite some time. The same law applies whether you are talking about ICE or electric.
In another thread, there was some discussion about ICE powered bikes being 'outlawed' somewhere overseas.
Not sure if this is the right way to go, but maybe from an environmental perspective, as e-bikes will be perceived as being green.
I believe the law should be changed to reflect the green status of the e-bike, as opposed to the dirty staus of the ICE.
Maybe even have the ICE version outlawed as well?
With the advances in motor/controller technology, and much better/lighter batteries, e-bikes can be seen as a real alternative for 'Mr and Mr's Joe Average' commuter.
Brett has a point about electric motors being rated for 'peak' power and 'continuous' power. Electric motors certainly behave differently than their ICE cousins!
This should be reflected in legislation.
Maybe we could jump on the bandwagon, as some people are seeking to have Segways legalised. Not sure what the power rating of one of these is?
But if they can get up, and use one of these on a footpath, should be a piece of cake to get an increase in allowable power for road use for an e-bike!
Brett, could you enlighten us further as to the issue with the moped style of e-bike? I see these things are flooding into the market from China.
albie
100 W
Brett... i wouldn't say the Avanti bikes are the only legal ebikes in australia
The currie tech bikes are also 200w. These are sold through Kmart in australia so they are legal as well.
EVTech in St Kilda also sells 200w bikes too which are street legal too. however, they are pretty expensive too.
The currie tech bikes are also 200w. These are sold through Kmart in australia so they are legal as well.
EVTech in St Kilda also sells 200w bikes too which are street legal too. however, they are pretty expensive too.
Mark_A_W
100 kW
There's a difference between saying they are 200w, and actually being 200w, that was Brett's point.
At 200w, the extra weight of the motor and battery aren't worth it, you're better off with a roadbike, IMHO
At 200w, the extra weight of the motor and battery aren't worth it, you're better off with a roadbike, IMHO
tailwind
100 W
Peter Garrett spoke at the beginning of the Melbourne to Sydney ebike ride, April 2007.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKI6zGgsYIE
Greg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKI6zGgsYIE
Greg
Hi all,
I am struggling with how to set my ebike up to conform to the 200w law. Does it refere to power measured at the battery or at the wheel?
I have tweaked the shunt on my controller with Fechter's help to limit the max current to 4 amps and with my 48v Ping pack pushing 50v @ 4amps that should make me legal if 200w referes to power consumption.
4 amps x 50v = 200watts
If 200w referes to where rubber hits the road, has anyone calculated controller, motor, spoke, etc losses so I can add it to my calculations and wring a bit more power out of my system whilst still staying legal?
On the 200w limit I think there is still alot more we can do before we need to resort to the 'Bigger Donk' approach, I see it as a bit of a challenge to improve motor, transmission and bike design. Less power means smaller batteries and a lighter bike which accelerates and climbs better.
30km/h speed limited and a more workable peak power for acceleration and climbing would get my vote, but I am still keen to see what I can wring out of 200w.
I am in the process of converting my Dahon Jetstream, with a 36v 20" Bafang, hopefully the gearing will give me better climbing and acceleration without effecting the top end.
Cheers
Derek
I am struggling with how to set my ebike up to conform to the 200w law. Does it refere to power measured at the battery or at the wheel?
I have tweaked the shunt on my controller with Fechter's help to limit the max current to 4 amps and with my 48v Ping pack pushing 50v @ 4amps that should make me legal if 200w referes to power consumption.
4 amps x 50v = 200watts
If 200w referes to where rubber hits the road, has anyone calculated controller, motor, spoke, etc losses so I can add it to my calculations and wring a bit more power out of my system whilst still staying legal?
On the 200w limit I think there is still alot more we can do before we need to resort to the 'Bigger Donk' approach, I see it as a bit of a challenge to improve motor, transmission and bike design. Less power means smaller batteries and a lighter bike which accelerates and climbs better.
30km/h speed limited and a more workable peak power for acceleration and climbing would get my vote, but I am still keen to see what I can wring out of 200w.
I am in the process of converting my Dahon Jetstream, with a 36v 20" Bafang, hopefully the gearing will give me better climbing and acceleration without effecting the top end.
Cheers
Derek
Mark_A_W
100 kW
It's power output.
So feel free to up the 4 amps (4 amps??? You'd be better off with a road bike!!), up to something useful, like about 30 amps.
FYI, even legal "200w" off the shelf bikes tend to have 41v batteries with a 16 amp controller.
So feel free to up the 4 amps (4 amps??? You'd be better off with a road bike!!), up to something useful, like about 30 amps.
FYI, even legal "200w" off the shelf bikes tend to have 41v batteries with a 16 amp controller.
Hi Mark,
Power output at the wheel or battery?
Even limited to 4 amps I would take my 20" ebike over a road bike, 12 km ride to work takes 35 min, no lycra, no clip on pedals, no sweat. Just need to mount my latte cup holder and I will be in heaven!!
With the original 17 amp limit my little mule pulled pretty hard all the way up to 30 km/h but rarely got over 10 amps, great fun but wouldn't trust it to the lovely lady to handle.
Derek
Power output at the wheel or battery?
Even limited to 4 amps I would take my 20" ebike over a road bike
, 12 km ride to work takes 35 min, no lycra, no clip on pedals, no sweat. Just need to mount my latte cup holder and I will be in heaven!!With the original 17 amp limit my little mule pulled pretty hard all the way up to 30 km/h but rarely got over 10 amps, great fun but wouldn't trust it to the lovely lady to handle.
Derek
Mark_A_W
100 kW
I'm no lawyer....
But I think they mean Output from the MOTOR.
But I think they mean Output from the MOTOR.
zog
100 mW
Of interest have met a guy twice down my local shops who asked me about my ebike... his reason being that he said he currently had a court case going where he had a 195W electric scooter (with pedals) that was sold to him as road legal, with a vicroads letter saying so.. he had been stopped a few times by the police with no problems but once the cop had decided to book him for driving an unregistered vehicle.
Though in this case it appears he wasn't wearing a helmet and also may have got the bike as he was already banned from driving registered due to other offences, so there may be a bit of history there, but no doubt I'll run into him again and hear the rest of the story as it progresses.
The scooter style ones may be coasting close to the borderline of the law as it does look like those pedals they have have been tacked on purely to stay within the letter of the law.
Though in this case it appears he wasn't wearing a helmet and also may have got the bike as he was already banned from driving registered due to other offences, so there may be a bit of history there, but no doubt I'll run into him again and hear the rest of the story as it progresses.
The scooter style ones may be coasting close to the borderline of the law as it does look like those pedals they have have been tacked on purely to stay within the letter of the law.
Mark_A_W
100 kW
Nobody knows what the law really means..
Peter Garrett encouraging us on one hand...cops booking people on the other.
Zog, your off-the-shelf "legal" 200w bike is capable of drawing 600w from the battery. At 80% efficiency that's almost 500w at the wheel. But it's rated at 200w....it's a minefield.
As far as we know all the "legal" solutions will actually draw much more power than 200w, and given a reasonable efficiency rating that implies more output power than 200w - with exception of the Avanti, which is apparently useless.
The best solution currently is Stealth...
Peter Garrett encouraging us on one hand...cops booking people on the other.
Zog, your off-the-shelf "legal" 200w bike is capable of drawing 600w from the battery. At 80% efficiency that's almost 500w at the wheel. But it's rated at 200w....it's a minefield.
As far as we know all the "legal" solutions will actually draw much more power than 200w, and given a reasonable efficiency rating that implies more output power than 200w - with exception of the Avanti, which is apparently useless.
The best solution currently is Stealth...
I am hoping it is at the wheel, with motor efficiency of 80% for my brushless hub that brings me up to 5 amps (250w x .8 = 200). Any takers at controller losses?
Its a shame that governments are so reactionary these days, rather than be proactive they seem to look for ways to ban things rather than put in the effort up front to manage and encourage inovation.
Derek
Its a shame that governments are so reactionary these days, rather than be proactive they seem to look for ways to ban things rather than put in the effort up front to manage and encourage inovation.
Derek
dazzassj6
100 W
well in NSW all those scooter looking bicycles are now ALL banned! meaning alot of businesses has closed down.
The law said the bike's primary drive was the motor and not the pedals. Also it does not look like a bicycle so they banned it.
Yes they dont like the look of the 'bike' scooter lol.
Anyways about RTA changing laws, i already read the proposal about changing it to a higher wattage. This was published in Febuary 2008, not sure if its been posted here already but here it is
http://rapidshare.com/files/138403018/Power_assisted_bikes_NSW_RTA_paper_2008.pdf.html
download it from there as i cant find the link to the RTA site.
The law said the bike's primary drive was the motor and not the pedals. Also it does not look like a bicycle so they banned it.
Yes they dont like the look of the 'bike' scooter lol.
Anyways about RTA changing laws, i already read the proposal about changing it to a higher wattage. This was published in Febuary 2008, not sure if its been posted here already but here it is
http://rapidshare.com/files/138403018/Power_assisted_bikes_NSW_RTA_paper_2008.pdf.html
download it from there as i cant find the link to the RTA site.
Mark_A_W
100 kW
What is really infuriating is I can go and buy a car capable of 300kmh and it's perfectly legal.
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