Can one change a thumb throttle to twist throttle?

[gotdog&bike]

I am not very tech oriented so I am looking for advice about changing a thumb throttle to twist throttle. I have an arthritic condition whereby it is painful to extend several digits on my hands and is less so on my wrist. I am looking at several ebikes such as the EG Bali or one of the Prodeco models. Does anyone know if I could change out a thumb throttle for a twist throttle?
Any help you be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[amberwolf]

unless there's something custom about it, it's as simple as swapping them out, fi the connectors are wired the same and use the same plug body. Often they don't, and you may hve to experimetn to find the right wiring. Safe enough if it's only 3 wires, if four or more you will need to measure voltages/etc on old one before removing it, and find out from vendor which pins are which on new one.

Alternately you can glue some PVC pipe or similar to the existing thumb throttle, after you shave away teh bit of thumb tab that might stick out on the grip body side so the pipe can go right up against the twistable body.

 

[dogman dan]

I have found it easy to convert thumb throttles to twist. The type I was getting in kits often broke the thumb tab off easily.

The body of the throttle is pvc plastic, so it can have a short piece of 1" pipe glued on easily. Light on the glue, so you don't glue the throttle permanently in the off position.

 

[gotdog&bike]

Thanks dogman and amberwolf. Your suggestion get me started for experimenting on this issue. I will post my trial experiments.

 

[motomech]

Try a half-twist, works best for my lazy, cruising and generally nowhere-I-need-to-go style of riding. And you can kind of lay your plam on iy for some cruise control.
I tried three styles of thumb throttles, none of which I liked although this one was the best;

My half-wrist is next to it[I have 2WD]
I keep the throttle on the left because my rear shifter is on the right[don't use a frt. shifter.

 

[dnmun]

duane had a neat solution for that kinda problem. he uses the brake lever for the throttle. he runs the cable back to the pack in back of the seat and has a thumb throttle mounted inside there which he attaches the end of the cable to the thumby thingy and then when he squeezes the brake lever it twists the throttle.

go pm biohazardman and ask him for some pictures and see if you can do that.

 

[motomech]

I remember that! But I think it was hooked up to a thumb style shifter, speed was controlled by indexing it up and down.
very kwel.

 

[dnmun]

yep, right, thumb shifter, i was thinking brake lever but it was a shifter and he mounted it where his good hand would reach it.

but pm him and he will help. nicest guy around.

 

[anthony_prodeco]

I am not very tech oriented so I am looking for advice about changing a thumb throttle to twist throttle. I have an arthritic condition whereby it is painful to extend several digits on my hands and is less so on my wrist. I am looking at several ebikes such as the EG Bali or one of the Prodeco models. Does anyone know if I could change out a thumb throttle for a twist throttle?
Any help you be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Hi and yes, with any of the Prodeco Bikes the throttle can be changed. Contact Prodeco and ask for the opposite throttle. It will be sent at no cost.

The throttle issue of Thumb versus Twist. The reason thumbs were used especially on the 500W bikes were due to riders who were not familiar with electric bikes accidentally twisting the throttle when gettin on and off the bikes. On a front motor bike, the nose would lift off the ground and the wheel would spin with no traction. On rear drive bikes, the nose would lift off the ground but the rear wheel would dig further in traction. For 2013, all models except the "Outlaws" will have the 1/2 twist throttle. Prodeco Technologies used 1/2 twist throttles for 4 years when testing and used full twist for 2011/2012 bikes excpet rear drive. We feel the full twist is not comfortable for everyone and now back to the 1/2 twist. The grips are all updated for a clean finish. On the 48V 750W bikes, the thumb is still the safer throttle. This year we have been working on plans to come up with a complete new throttle system. We will be doing the molds ourselves and patent the design to allow use with a right hand trigger shifter and be 100% water proof. The industry needs good throttles with integrated battery capacity indicators and will be compatible clamp wise with trigger shift systems. This is Rob Provost, CEO of Prodeco Technologies.

 

[dogman dan]

Be nice to see somebody improve ebike throttles. I'd like to see an increased range of twist, allowing a more fine adjustment of low throttle settings.

Good throttles are being neglected by the industry, in the rush to make more cheaper.

 

[anthony_prodeco]

Be nice to see somebody improve ebike throttles. I'd like to see an increased range of twist, allowing a more fine adjustment of low throttle settings.

Good throttles are being neglected by the industry, in the rush to make more cheaper.

PRODECO TECHNOLOGIES RESPONSE: Hi Dogman, I couldn't agree more. Everybody is using similar throttles with nothing great out there. They are good but not great. That is why we want to develop one. We will work with an existing throttle company as not to have to reinvent the wheel but something that is a higher grade and maybe floating on a set of ball bearings similar to what SRAM did with the XO and XX Gripshift this year. The SRAM gripshit floats on 3 bearings and so smooth. For thumb throttles and twist throttles, they should also float on a bearing set. The other feature should be that the throttle does not come alive until the bike is rolling so eliminate the accidents off the line when riders are getting on and off and accidentally hit the throttle. That would also involved a signal coming from the controller telling the throttle the wheel is in motion. The controller could also kill the throttle if it knows the wheels are not in motion. As soon as the bike rolls, the throttle comes alive. By roll, I mean pushing even with your feet just a foot, not any type of speed. The throttle should also have a very clear and precise on/off button or switch on the throttle itself. If adding a battery capacity/storage indicator, it should be required to have a higher accuracy of remaining battery energy. We are definitely going to have our team move forward on a new design and hopefully in less than a year, the first version will come to market. I love thumb throttles but only if done right. Two more issues I forgot to mention about thumb throttles: 1) it is important the case assembly needs to be low profile and work with other components such as brakes and shifters. 2) Waterproof, it must be waterproof and not just water resistant. Hopefully we can get it done quick.

 

[amberwolf]

The other feature should be that the throttle does not come alive until the bike is rolling so eliminate the accidents off the line when riders are getting on and off and accidentally hit the throttle.

That kind of design, if not disableable by the end-user, would make your bikes useless for people like me, who generally require the assist primarily to get started, especially with heavy loads on the bike or in a trailer. For me, my knees are bad, so it hurts just to walk; some days it's so bad that even standing on the cranks to start a bike moving, even if all I have to do is move it 1cm before the throttle would start working, would be a dealbreaker. There are others worse off than I am, too.

(some days I can even ride a pedal-only bike with little problem, though it hurts always it just isn't as bad; when weather changes suddenly, pressure or temperature, it is the worst time for me).


It's one reason why some people in the EU illegally ride with throttles, because pedalec startup (which on most controllers does the same thing you're wanting, only using the pedals for the "throttle", some analog and some on/off) would be impossible for them to actually use.

What you might want instead is the same thing most electric lawnmowers have--a button of some type near the throttle that you must hold down while initiating throttle from zero, and can let go after that if you want.

It could be electrical, a separate signal to the controller (which wuould need to know what to do with it), or could toggle a flip-flop to enable the hall throttle's power, and then the throttle's output voltage would wire to *Reset on the flip flop, so when it goes low (zero) it'll turn the throttle off. Use a comparator opamp to rescale the throttle's output to the *Reset input, so that only when the hall output drops to actual minimum "off" value does it drop *Reset to zero. Could use *Set instead, and invert the comparator output. Lots of ways to do it.

It could be mechanically linked to the throttle rotation, so that it physically blocks the throttle from moving out of zero position until you press it, and after taht it's held open by the throttle being out of zero position.

Once the throttle is moved back to zero, the button pops out if not held in, so to restart one must hold it in again.

Make it so that there is actually a tiny dead zone at zero just before the button pops out, so a rider can hold the throttle just above that point but without any motor power being applied at all, so they dont' have to keep re-pressing the button at every stop they make for traffic lights, etc.



(note that you won't be able to patent that part of the device, as this idea is now public domain, licensed under Creative Commons Non Commercial Use. )

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, for me, that would not be an improvement. Though my health is improving, I'm a long way from wanting anything but motor start.

I just thought a throttle that has better controll would be nice, one that works less like an of off switch. It's very hard to select a throttle position less than 100w, on an off road bike with 1500 or more watts. Occasionally, like when encountering others on the trail, you do wan less than all 1500w.

Mostly, we have to use three speed switches for this. But it's not the ideal way to do it, more crap on crowded handlebars.

 

[Punx0r]

I have in mind that a non-linear throttle would be good for that. I guess it could be achieved in the throttle itself, or the software in the controller.

 

[shock]

No need to get all Chevy about it. Trying to protect people from their own stupidity.

 

[anthony_prodeco]

The other feature should be that the throttle does not come alive until the bike is rolling so eliminate the accidents off the line when riders are getting on and off and accidentally hit the throttle.

That kind of design, if not disableable by the end-user, would make your bikes useless for people like me, who generally require the assist primarily to get started, especially with heavy loads on the bike or in a trailer. For me, my knees are bad, so it hurts just to walk; some days it's so bad that even standing on the cranks to start a bike moving, even if all I have to do is move it 1cm before the throttle would start working, would be a dealbreaker. There are others worse off than I am, too.

(some days I can even ride a pedal-only bike with little problem, though it hurts always it just isn't as bad; when weather changes suddenly, pressure or temperature, it is the worst time for me).


It's one reason why some people in the EU illegally ride with throttles, because pedalec startup (which on most controllers does the same thing you're wanting, only using the pedals for the "throttle", some analog and some on/off) would be impossible for them to actually use.

What you might want instead is the same thing most electric lawnmowers have--a button of some type near the throttle that you must hold down while initiating throttle from zero, and can let go after that if you want.

It could be electrical, a separate signal to the controller (which wuould need to know what to do with it), or could toggle a flip-flop to enable the hall throttle's power, and then the throttle's output voltage would wire to *Reset on the flip flop, so when it goes low (zero) it'll turn the throttle off. Use a comparator opamp to rescale the throttle's output to the *Reset input, so that only when the hall output drops to actual minimum "off" value does it drop *Reset to zero. Could use *Set instead, and invert the comparator output. Lots of ways to do it.

It could be mechanically linked to the throttle rotation, so that it physically blocks the throttle from moving out of zero position until you press it, and after taht it's held open by the throttle being out of zero position.

Once the throttle is moved back to zero, the button pops out if not held in, so to restart one must hold it in again.

Make it so that there is actually a tiny dead zone at zero just before the button pops out, so a rider can hold the throttle just above that point but without any motor power being applied at all, so they dont' have to keep re-pressing the button at every stop they make for traffic lights, etc.



(note that you won't be able to patent that part of the device, as this idea is now public domain, licensed under Creative Commons Non Commercial Use. )

PRODECO TECHNOLOGIES RESPONSE: This is Rob Provost again. I like that Idea of just for the first few feet have a button to press. That is very smart. We took the cruise control button on throttles and turned it into on/off button. All our throttles now have on/off buttons. We are not a believer in cruise control for PRODUCTION ebikes but for the experienced rider, cruise control is the best. Since we did not want the cruise control feature, the use of the button as on and off was perfect for us. It is however confusing for about 1% of riders and this year we are placing a label around the throttle. The only reason we changed it to an on/off also was so the rider would turn the throttle on and off when getting on and off the bike and we only need it for that one instance. Instead though we could require the rider to push the button and the throttle just for the initial 1mph. It would be done through the controller and hall sensor signals as you suggest. That is great idea you have, I owe you a gift. We would design the mold so the button is close enough that it is not awkward but still safe.

For now, we can send you any type of throttle you want for no charge. We have thumb, full twist and half twist. The connectors are designed all the same for our controllers. They are all plug and play to say. Thank you Amberwolf and please let us know whatever you need to make your riding experience the best. We are very accommodating when it comes to parts and small changes riders want to do, such as the throttle, or grips, saddles, etc..

 

[anthony_prodeco]

Yeah, for me, that would not be an improvement. Though my health is improving, I'm a long way from wanting anything but motor start.

I just thought a throttle that has better controll would be nice, one that works less like an of off switch. It's very hard to select a throttle position less than 100w, on an off road bike with 1500 or more watts. Occasionally, like when encountering others on the trail, you do wan less than all 1500w.

Mostly, we have to use three speed switches for this. But it's not the ideal way to do it, more crap on crowded handlebars.

This is Rob Provost again. In regards to getting the bike moving first, I was thinking no more than a 2 foot roll but mentioned up to 50 feet. I should stick with the 2 feet. Amberwolf has a great idea that the button we use for an on/off that instead we use it as a safety button for take off. The button is depressed while throttling just for the first roll off the line, a few feet. If there is a lot of stop and go it might become an issue but we can figure something around that. I will give it to the R & D guys to play with. There are a few new throttles coming out this year with the popularity of throttled ebikes growing. We are going to check them out. With the new smart controllers such as ASI are coming out with, there may be more programming at the controller itself available that would improve the performance of the throttle. New controllers will allow riders to also noticeable increases their distance per charge. The issue is should everyone be allowed to program their controller themselves? There is a smart phone feature being worked on that will allow controllers to be programmed through an app. We believe the programming though should be reserved to only those who know what they are doing or limited. If the programming is not done properly, the ride experience could be poor (blaming the bike) and the motor could be over worked.

 

[anthony_prodeco]

No need to get all Chevy about it. Trying to protect people from their own stupidity.

Hi Shock, this is Rob P, I hear you on that but the product liability insurance people don't like to hear that. Even though it would be the rider at fault if they accidentally throttled into traffic, they would still blame a malfunction on the bike. Since the bike would be mangled, a lot time, money and energy would be wasted. Plus, we have a huge concern for safety. I am one of those guys who would feel guilty even if not our fault. One of the reasons we did not do pedal assist last year was from a rider who rested his foot on one of the pedals while he had he arms crossed at his chest. The bike moved forward and when he tried to reach the handlebars, he fell and broke his hip. This was at a red light and thank God there was no traffic. We have been working with a Bottom Bracket company on a new torque sensor which combined with the ASI controller will eliminate the chance of that happening but for throttles, we have to come up with a safety feature. It is difficult to try and design the bike to fit everyone's request. That is why we had to do 22 models for next year. A little something for everyone.

 

[gotdog&bike]

Discussion about the thumb throttle and the twist throttle has given me some really good insight and and ideas about situation concerning the change out of the thumb for the twist. I really appreciate Daniel, the Prodeco representative's support, in suggesting changing out the two throttles upon purchasing one of their bikes.
Thanks

 

[amberwolf]

This is Rob Provost again. In regards to getting the bike moving first, I was thinking no more than a 2 foot roll but mentioned up to 50 feet. I should stick with the 2 feet.

For me, 1 inch would be too much sometimes. The throttle would simply have to work from a complete stop with no pedalling.

For some people (and on occasions I've had this problem), even with feet not on hte pedals at all it would have to work from a complete stop, simply because of inability to balance the bike from startup till some amount of speed. One might say that those poeple are better off on a trike, but they might not have that option for one reason or another. Normally to get that speed from a stop, one would stand astride the bike and then put one foot on a pedal at 1 o'clock, the other foot on the ground, and then simply stand up onto that pedal, lifting the other foot and placing it on the upcoming pedal. Some people can't do that quickly enough, or have other reasons to not be able to do it.

So for both of the above situations, the throttle must be able to work from zero, even if that is by using an enabling button.

 

[shock]

Make a good, simple, normal high quality throttle, and it will sell. Trying to over-complicate things will not really solve anything, but likely just make more problems, because you are making the throttle system more complex. People are going to wipe out 2 wheeled bikes no matter what type of safety provisions are added because we as humans are not perfect, and balance/riding is a skill that varies widely from person to person. You find a way to make it safer, and someone WILL find a way to wipe it out even harder. I was amazed at how many people failed during my motorcycle safety certification class, and how hard they failed (one had to go to the hospital, high sided wipe out). So you should not feel bad about people hurting themselves on a bike, people know the risks, and they still choose to ride. What you need with a good throttle, is a good liability disclaimer that goes into effect when purchasing the product.

 

[shock]

And to the original poster topic: Yes you can use any throttle really.

3 wires

5+dcv
ground
signal (.5-4.5v)

Mine was: red 5+, black ground, green signal.

Some have 5 wires, the extra 2 are for the LED readout or switch.

I've connected lyen, ebikekit, amped bikes throttles to the same controller. If you question it, take it apart and see where the wires go, or test with a batt. and multi meter. They really are simple electrically.

 

[anthony_prodeco]

Make a good, simple, normal high quality throttle, and it will sell. Trying to over-complicate things will not really solve anything, but likely just make more problems, because you are making the throttle system more complex. People are going to wipe out 2 wheeled bikes no matter what type of safety provisions are added because we as humans are not perfect, and balance/riding is a skill that varies widely from person to person. You find a way to make it safer, and someone WILL find a way to wipe it out even harder. I was amazed at how many people failed during my motorcycle safety certification class, and how hard they failed (one had to go to the hospital, high sided wipe out). So you should not feel bad about people hurting themselves on a bike, people know the risks, and they still choose to ride. What you need with a good throttle, is a good liability disclaimer that goes into effect when purchasing the product.

Thank you Shock and also Amberwolf for the insight. I understand were you both are coming from. Another one of the original reasons behind us developing our own throttle was so everything fits nice and neat with the brakes, shifter and grips. We would like to use underbar trigger shifters but none fit properly with the current throttles in the market. We also want the throttle to be water proof for downpours and not just water resistant. For 2013 bikes which ship in a few months, they will have new caution labels wrapped right around the throttle for when the rider is unpacking and using for the first time plus also on the bar for long term.