Can someone suggest how I can get more torque

Bogus

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Mar 18, 2016
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I am looking for more torque for my 48V 1000W kit: http://www.yescomusa.com/products/26in-rear-electric-bicycle-motor-conversion-kit-48v-1000w

Not really looking for more top speed, 30-35mph is my desired limit for now but I would like more hill climbing ability and acceleration.

Is there a motor controller that would allow more power?
What about soldering the shunts together on the controller I already have? I'm not sure if this is a universal option.

Sticker on the controller says:
-48V, 1000W
-13A
-26A +-1A max

Battery: http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/48v/48v-panasonic-11-5ah-or-13-5ah-bottle-battery/

Also would a different controller or shunt mod severely reduce the lifespan of my motor or battery?
 
Add a second motor to the front, a geared hubmotor (BPM?). Swap-in a 50A battery, 20A to the front, and 30A to the rear. Drill the sidecovers of the rear Yescom to let the heat out, coat the inside with motor sealant.

That battery is topped out at 30A, sell it to someone with a BBS02.
 
With the battery pack you have, there's not much you can do. Doing a 50% shunt mod increasing max amps to ~40A would give you more power, but I'm not sure that battery pack can support it. You could also go to a 24" wheel without losing much top speed, but gain a lot better acceleration.
 
If I do the shunt mod would I get the full 30A from the battery all the time without damaging it or the motor?
 
Start here.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74403
 
One good way to get more torque from the same motor controller battery is change the rim to 20"
 
I'm not sure I'm capable of such a thing.

Edit: looks like the NCR B bottle batteries on Luna are capable of 25amp continuous, 50A burst. So can someone give me the run down of how that works?

By my calculation I will cruise at 1200W (25A*48V) then if I want I can hit around 2400W (50A*48V)?

What's that like in the real world? Is there like a quick spike to 2400W followed by a roll-off to 1200W? Or will holding the throttle down always dump 50A until the motor or battery overheats?

Definitely doing that shunt mod if there's no risk of explosions :mrgreen:
 
You need to spend some quality time with the motor simulator. Predicting the effect of changes is not simple.

Here's roughly how things work:

The throttle suggests to the controller a PWM setting that you want. The controller will set this PWM unless the settings in the controller prevent it, for example the current limiting will prevent the PWM from reaching the value you requested if the current is getting too high. The PWM setting corresponds to a voltage the controller will effectively deliver to the motor. But what happens there is more interesting...

The faster the motor spins, the more back EMF it generates. The controller supplies some voltage, and the back EMF bucks this voltage. The difference is what is left to drive the motor. This difference in voltage, divided by all the resistance in the motor, wiring, connectors and controller determines what current will flow.

Soldering the shunt, or buying a bigger controller will only help if the current limiting is holding back the PWM.

The ONLY way to force current into the motor is to raise the voltage. This is what the PWM does (and why people so often increase the voltages of their ebikes).

Once you get to the upper speed portion of the curve the back EMF is what is limiting the current, not the controller current limiting. Changing the controller limiting only helps on the bottom part of the curve, the lower speed portion.

Go to ebikes.ca and find the motor simulator, and play with that awhile.
 
Thanks Alan! What I gathered from your post is that the lower the motor temperature and speed the more potential there is for torque to be generated?

Also, due to the legal speed limit of unlicensed mopeds being capped at 31MPH, I have no real desire to see speeds beyond that (fines are not in my budget). My main concern is realizing as much bottom end torque as possible with what I've got. Cruising at ~30mph would be ideal.

I'll check out the simulator now too.
----

I've taken apart my motor controller and found a few important things about it.

Manufacturer: Suzhou Kunteng Electronics Co. ltd
Model: http://www.szktdz.com/en/news_show.php?article_id=352 (appears to be the predecessor to the one linked)

Stats from the linked controller:
-2400W max (the same amount my battery can put out in burst)
-1200W rated (the same amount my battery can sustain)
-Maximum current 25-40 amps (10A less than the Luna bottle can burst)

Maybe this is a perfect match between battery and motor controller already? Is the shunt mod necessary to tap that 2400W limit effectively?

My controller's FET information as printed:
80NF 70
CZ03H 6
MAR 505
ST (3)6

Caps are rated at 63V except for that one little guy hiding under my finger in the pic coming in at 16V.

Could someone kindly tell me where the shunts are? (My guess is that silver patch above my finger):

http://i.imgur.com/r340t5J/
 
What I did to achieve similar goals was to build the Borg. Goes up steep grades at 25, cruises at 30. Doesn't get hot. With moped tires doesn't get (many) flats. With dual suspension it doesn't beat me to death on the crummy pavement. Has torque throttle for great control and variable regen/ebrake for descending without heating the brakes.

Essentially the motor is double the torque of a regular hubmotor. You can throw more at a regular hubmotor and it will heat up quick. Even this motor gets warm climbing grades. But regular hubmotors get very hot, you can get some idea from the simulator. They just don't have a lot of extra torque.

The heat in the motor is mostly from torque production, and it follows the I squared times R equation. Torque goes up proportional to I. So as you increase torque you increase heat by a square factor. Also as the copper heats R goes up quite a bit. So you really quickly get to motor overheat. Then folks are drilling holes, putting oil in, and trying all these schemes to get the heat out.

It is much better to start with a motor that has more copper and more magnet material so it makes more torque at lower current.

Adding a second hubmotor to the front wheel is another way to increase torque capacity and heat dissipation capacity.

Another solution is to add a mid drive.

Lots of approaches.
 
I'm planning on splurging quite a bit if I build a 2.0 DIY eBike. I'm thinking light weight, 3000W hub motor, 72V 60A+ battery for ultimate acceleration. For now though I just want to squeeze what I can out of what I've got.
 
Do you have any way of measuring the current as you ride ?...wattmeter, Ampmeter, CA, etc.??
You need to know exactly what current you are using now , so that you can see the effects of any mods.
If you can find the shunts, it seems to me you have little to lose by soldering them up a bit at a time to see if it gives you what you want.....before you launch into radical changes.
 
Measuring battery current while you ride is beyond a standard multimeter. You could do it with your multimeter and a shunt, if you can ride and watch the meter. Better instrumentation is a big help toward understanding your system's current performance bottlenecks.

I set up the Borg for 18S 66V (75V fully charged) and 80A, and the current battery is 32 amp hours. It is fun. The story is linked in my signature.
 
Bogus said:
Yeah I've got a multimeter. What should I test?
What is the max amps it can measure ( without using calibrated shunts etc)
You need to measure the max current draw from the controller to the motor...
...you could do a quick "motor stall" check whilst stationary , but only if your meter can take the load.
 
Bogus, the only way you're going to get more power from your controller is with a shunt mod or buying a new controller that supports more amps. That's the bottom line. All this other crap means nothing to you. Yeah, you could raise the voltage up to 60V max on your setup. But that's not going to get you any noticeable power difference. Only maybe 1 mph more speed than you have now VA=W, it's that simple. The more watts you can supply to the motor, the more power you have. The biggest problem you have is going to be whether or not your battery pack can supply the amps. if it cuts out at 30A, you just aren't going to get much more power no matter what you do.
 
Modding the controller may produce no improvements if the system is BEMF limited already. In any case it will provide improvement only at low to mid speed, and it may reduce the reliability of the controller right into failure.

Exceeding the current ratings of the BMS will likely destroy it or cause it to shutdown.

Exceeding the current capacity of the cells in the battery will cause them to heat, fail early or underperform.

If your present system is fairly balanced it won't be easy to improve it as everything may need to change.

Making measurements may allow figuring out how much performance improvements are possible without doing them. It also may help predict where the stress and failure might occur, but there are enough unknowns that this is not certain.

You may need to add mechanical improvements to the system or suffer failures there as well. For example torque arms may require improvement.

If you embark on the hacking process you must be willing to suffer the failures, financial costs and unreliability. For a commuter these costs can be higher than expected - missing work, or an important meeting. One fellow was recently riding one of his ebikes and due to increased torque from a new motor, lack of torque arms and the nuts coming loose he broke the dropouts on his expensive new frame trying to not be late for an important meeting.

There are some folks experimenting with running two controllers in parallel with good results, which is interesting and somewhat surprising. If you added a second battery and a second controller you could increase the current and the range without overloading either controller, battery or BMS. Providing your controllers tolerate operating in parallel. However the same comments about BEMF still apply.

Doing some modelling with the ebikes.ca simulator may be the best first step, if your combination of components is in the model, or something close, you can see if the motor overheat is going to be a significant risk, and if increasing the current limit is going to help.

Increasing system voltage can make a big change in system performance, but again it depends where on the curve you are. It will increase the unloaded speed by the ratio of voltages, which isn't perhaps a huge change for a modest voltage boost. But motor power goes up with E squared, and without increasing battery current or controller current it goes up linearly. So if BEMF is limiting it can make a big difference. If current is limiting it will still make a linear improvement. Again, the simulator can be used to view these changes before making them. And understanding the simulator will be useful to help guide your next system design.
 
Alan B said:
Modding the controller may produce no improvements if the system is BEMF limited already. In any case it will provide improvement only at low to mid speed, and it may reduce the reliability of the controller right into failure.
And that's exactly what he wants. More power, faster acceleration, not more speed. That's what a shunt mod does. Change the power. He really doesn't have any good options because of the limitation of his battery pack. With a battery pack capable of 40A output, he could get a good power boost with a 50% shunt mod. But limited with a max output of 30A just doesn't leave much room for improvement. The motor isn't the problem.
 
wesnewell said:
Alan B said:
Modding the controller may produce no improvements if the system is BEMF limited already. In any case it will provide improvement only at low to mid speed, and it may reduce the reliability of the controller right into failure.
And that's exactly what he wants. More power, faster acceleration, not more speed. That's what a shunt mod does. Change the power. He really doesn't have any good options because of the limitation of his battery pack. With a battery pack capable of 40A output, he could get a good power boost with a 50% shunt mod. But limited with a max output of 30A just doesn't leave much room for improvement. The motor isn't the problem.

Actually the battery I got replies rated for 25A continuous, 50A peak which seems to be a perfect match for the controller I have which is supposedly 13A/26 max but I'm pretty sure is actually rated for 25A/50 max (1200W and 2400W peak).

If the above is true I'm thinking I'll keep this bike as is and build a better one next time around with higher rated components and a lighter frame.

Any ideas how I can check the true input potential of the controller with a multimeter? I've posted a high res picture of the controller a few replies up.
 
If it is rated for 13/26, and you are getting 25/50 amps then it sounds like it has already been modified, the ratings should not be that far off. It is easy to get wrong measurements - do you have a calibrated shunt and meter to measure with? If you use the shunt in the controller they are often not wired correctly or not done well and the resulting errors can be considerable.
 
Alan B said:
If it is rated for 13/26, and you are getting 25/50 amps then it sounds like it has already been modified, the ratings should not be that far off. It is easy to get wrong measurements - do you have a calibrated shunt and meter to measure with? If you use the shunt in the controller they are often not wired correctly or not done well and the resulting errors can be considerable.

I don't have a shunt, also I haven't measured it yet, I'm just assuming the sticker is inaccurate based on the manufacturer's specs page for the model I'm pretty sure that I own (linked above). Mine's got 12 FETs so it can probably handle 40-50A right?
 
Okay that seems reasonable then, what should I test first? The positive and negative of the battery and the motor? Is there any way I can figure it out just probing the inside of the controller while it's off?
 
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