Catrike Three Speed

[12p3phPMDC]

Plans:
2006 Catrike Speed Hybrid
-Recumpence Inspired Drive Module (Parallel: Human on Right, Motor on Left)
-HXT 80-100
-Turnigy 100A ver4
-Thumb Pot Return Spring Throttle or DigiPot Throttle with "Return Spring" Circuit
-12S 30C LiPo 10ah
-18:90 reduction GT2 15mm wide PolyChain (Primary 5:1 reduction)
-18t/90t/15w Good for 3.75KW according to Gates.
-AW 3 speed jackshaft (hopefully takes the loads)
-AW Hub provides freewheel
-2:3 final reduction
-20 something Sprocket on AW spoke flange
-30 something sprocket on Disc Brake Mount
-405 mm Rear Wheel with 8 Speed Nexus Alfine Disc Brake Mount on left
-or 405mm Rear Wheel with SRAM dual drive and 9 speed cassette with Disc Brake Mount
-or 405mm Rear Wheel with Disc Brake Hub and 9 speed Cassette.
-(3x3x9 = a bunch of gears to get lost in)
-doped Aircraft fabric streamlined shell

Projected speeds:
Low 34 mph
Mid 46 mph
High 61 mph

Probably need to upgrade the brakes too...

So, anyway, glad to be here.
Exciting stuff on this forum.
Good info.

I love my trike, but it kicks my butt on the hills.
It handles amazingly well.

I was lurking around the recumbents forum and saw Matts
link in the e-bent section, and I got hooked before
I ever took a hit.

Progress so far:
trike
motor
AW 3 speed hub
controller (on order)
throttle (on order)
batteries (on order, long pole in tent)
battery charger (on order)
drive design pulley selection
gearing spreadsheet


Chris

 

[etard]

Welcome 12p13phPMCDH156GFEL168ggas,

I gotta ask, is the name some sort of code for batteries or something?
Anyway, I see you have the tadpole config. your closest competitor will be vrdublove who has a 60MPH trike. Hopefully you will be able to match his speeds while being much lighter due to less battery, lighter motor, etc...

Can you explain the aircraft fabric part, is that going to be for aerodynamics or is that the frame material?

Can't wait to see how you adapt the gearing with the Sturmey.

 

[Miles]

I gotta ask, is the name some sort of code for batteries or something?

12pole, 3phase, permanent magnet direct current - I guess...........

 

[12p3phPMDC]

etardfabulosomagnanimous,

Yea, the aircraft fabric is for a streamliner shell.
I hate the idea of making a mold, laying up fiber whatever, sanding
the hell out of it, more bondo, more sanding, more resin, etc...etc..
yea, I'll have to build a shell frame, but, to me, that is more fun.
Then you skin it, shrink it, paint it.

I used to build model airplanes as a kid, and dope up the tissue paper over balsa.
It was super light. Then while in FSAE in college, we used aircraft fabric over parts
of the spaceframe to provide a light weight, tight cover that didn't have
body panels.

Anyway, that's the last thing to do.
Aircraft spruce sells the stuff. Hell, if you can put it on a wing and fly 150 mph with it, it'll work for me.

First, order pulleys, and start adapting to the AW.

Good job Miles, you win the prize.

Prize:
So, Pinochio says to Gepeto, "hey man, I've got a problem".
"When my girl and I get together, she get's splinters, and it's starting to affect
our relationship. What should I do??!?"
Gepeto thinks for sec. Goes back to his shelf and pulls out a sheet of sandpaper.
He hands the sandpaper to Pinochio and says,"Here try this."
So, he does, and a couple of weeks later he sees Gepeto.
Gepeto asks, "How did that sandpaper work for you and your girlfriend??"
Pinochio says, "Shoot......who needs a girlfriend when you have sandpaper!"

(bad woodworking joke, heh he he he, makes me laugh everytime I tell it though)

 

[Miles]

LOL!

 

[recumpence]

12P,

Glad to see you here.

My next build (next winter) will be a trike. I almost built one this winter, but I got the BMX bug. :wink:

If you have any questions on your project, wether drive system or whatever, just ask. You will like the RC drive if it is set up right. Also, you may want to get Fetcher's amp limiter. That will save you a few fried ESCs. Also, make sure you add caps to the ESC input and make sure you have alot of airflow to the ESC.

Matt

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Thanks for the welcome Gents...

and the advice.....

I really like my Catrike. I've test ridden the Wizwheel, which was excellent for the money. But I almost
rolled it on my test ride (too tippy for me). As a side note, Greenspeed sells trike plans for a built from scratch
approach. I bought mine used which helped knock down the sticker shock. But as a side note, I'm scared as hell to
ride it in traffic, it is really low. Thank god for excellent bike trails in Albuquerque. The KMX look cool, never ridden one though.

 

[GGoodrum]

Also, you may want to get Fetcher's amp limiter. That will save you a few fried ESCs. Also, make sure you add caps to the ESC input and make sure you have alot of airflow to the ESC.

The throttle convertor/current limit board has four big 330Uf caps on the board itself:

For those waiting on these, the boards and parts have been ordered, and Richard should be building the first ones early next week.

 

[Drunkskunk]

For those waiting on these, the boards and parts have been ordered, and Richard should be building the first ones early next week.

Is there a signup sheet for these? Bike #4, what ever it ends up being, will br RC powered.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Fecher,

good job on that circuit man. I read through your thread last night and am digesting the circuit...
I like how you used the allegro current sensor. I love those chips....nice and beefy.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Here's a photochopped layout:

First,
I'm making a round to square adaptor by boxing the 2" tube.
This will involve making a 1" radius on the tube side of each plate
on all 4 plates. This will clamp the tube nicely. AL 6061 T6, 1/2 plate top, 3/8 plate sides.
Then, i will screw the assembly together with small machine screws, countersunk, 10-32 or
whatever fits.

The HXT will mount below the tube using a plate mounted to the left side plate.
I'm gonna heat sink it by lapping the anodizing off the motor (thanks Luke).
The first reduction will go on the left of the bike using GT2 5mm pitch 15mm wide GT2 polychain drive,
18 tooth HXT to 50 tooth Jackshaft. Then on the right side of the jackshaft, I'll put Matts freewheel
adaptor and use a 12 tooth fixed gear. Then that'll feed the sturmey 3 AW speed 25 tooth.
I need to buy and machine a 25 tooth (+- a few, whatever fits), to bolt to the AW spoke flange.
Then the final sprocket will bolt to a 6 bolt disc brake mount on the wheel hub. 35 tooth (+- a few ).

I'm considering the SRAM dual drive for the wheel I'm building. But they are pricey. I could then
take my existing cassette, re-use it, and get 133% overdrive, and 75% underdrive. I do run out of gears
at the top end when pedaling, so that would help.

Also, the existing wheel is a 28-450. Schwalbe makes damn nice Marathon puncture resistant tire that is only available for
the 405 diameter wheel, so, I'm gonna go to that size for battle hardening. Plus the Marathon is a slightly cushier ride.

 

[lawsonuw]

Just a FYI for your second stage input sprocket. #40 sprockets will run bicycle chain just fine IF the teeth are narrowed enough to fit. I'm actually going the other way on a project of mine. I'm having a bicycle freewheel drive a #40 chain. I'm making a spacer to widen the freewheel's teeth by thinning down and boring out a #40 sprocket. The spacer is then glued on to make a permanent unit. The tooth profile on my #40 spacer and both freewheels I've converted have been identical.

Lawson

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Thanks for the tip. Yea, I think that is they way to go. Narrow a #40 10 tooth. $15 bucks from McMaster.

 

[nsasch]

Any status updates on this? It'd be nice to see more Catrikes (or just trikes even) with non-hub motor drives. I think my Cyclone build and the Ecospeed are the only ones out there yet. So hurry up! I need competition to upgrade to RC equipment.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Yea, I've got just about everything now.

I was in a financial lull for while.

But, got all the major stuff!!!!

I'll take a pic of the parts obtained/fabbed in a nice spread:
-HXT
-controller
-servo testers
-batteries
-Anderson Power poles 75A
-pulleys
-drive sprockets
-three speed hub Inter 3 disc
-20" rear wheel (tried lacing it up, need shorter spokes)
-Marathon Plus tire
-rear disc hub Alfine 8
-shifters for 3 speed and 8 speed
-disc brake adaptors for centerlock rotors
-4x6" al tube for drive
-tubing mounts
-3/8 plate for motor mount

Need some bearings, shafting, bolts, etc..
down to the last little stuff.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Finally have some build Pics! Its alot of fun seeing this start to come together after all
the reading, planning, designing, shopping, and scheming!!! 8)

I bought the $200 harbor freight horizontal bandsaw to cut the tubing
and general metal stock. I wish I could afford a real bandsaw, but spent too much on bike parts.
I cuts OK. I have to tune up the cuts afterwards with a belt sander and
a file . But it got the project moving!!



I decided to base the drive off of 4x6" tubing with 1/4 wall.
Its not the cheapest stuff in the world, but in small quantities, its pretty reasonable.
I bought 1 foot which will make two drives.

View attachment 8

It's strong and stiff, and the 6" width of the tubing is perfect when it comes
to 3 speed transmissions with 135mm old. My 8 speed rear wheel is also 135mm..
Both internal gear hubs also have the Shimano centerlock disc brake system
I bought two adapters, 6 bolt ISO to centerlock. These are the basis
for the final drive, which stands at 19:33 right now.
The drive sprocket on the disc brake output of the 3 speed is a 19 fixed gear 6 bolt
ISO cog. The rear sprocket is a 33 tooth bmx crank aluminum (machinable with router).

voila! instant chain alignment if I keep it on the same centerline.



View attachment 2



The ID of the 4x6 tubing is 139.7 mm. So, I also have almost 4mm adjustment.
I milled horizontal dropouts into the end of the drive frame with a router table
and a 3/8" straight bit. The three speed axle is 3/8".

The 19 tooth sprockets leave just enough room inside the 4" high tubing with 1/4 wall => 88.9mm" ID.
I wanted to use a 21 tooth input or larger for a bigger reduction before going into
the three speed. A 20 tooth might fit. But, I ended up with a 19 tooth input to the three speed,
and a 19 tooth output. Kind of beautiful in a gearhead-symetrical sort of way. I don't have to cut
clearance slots for chain/sprocket management. It fits!

I'm going to machine the rear sprocket ID using the 15 tooth 6 bolt sprocket as a template.
The router and a following bit will machine the ID of the bmx 33 tooth sprocket
I'll transfer the hole pattern using a drill press keeping the holes concentric.





I pulled a Bubba ( Lawson suggestion) and thinned a #40 , 11 tooth sprocket with a chop saw and a mandrel
to clamp it. It came out really square, but it got red hot....probably pulled any tempering
out. So anyway, I'll have a 11:19 reduction going into the 3 speed.

Bubba, did you cut yours with a bandsaw? (yours looks much nicer)



The motor reduction is 22 to 62 GT belt that will drive the jackshaft.

Here's the rear tire 406 Marathon plus for thorn proofing.


So, awaiting bearings and shafting for the primary jackshaft.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

continuing thread pics.

Heres the frame made from 4x6 tubing.
I had to slope the front due to the angle of the main tube and the seat.




Here's the location of the dropouts 2" centerline on the tube 3/8" wide slot.
View attachment 4

Here's the router table with the 3/8" straight bit.
I set the fence to be 2" from the centerline of the bit.

View attachment 2

Dropouts!!!

Virtual Final Drive


Virtual Secondary Reduction.

 

[Grinhill]

This looks like a very exciting build.

So, it's affectively a 3-stage reduction?

Does that HXT motor come with that shaft with thread on one end? What's to total shaft length?

Good luck!

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Thanks Grinhill.. It's got me revved up!

3 stages of "fixed" reduction. 4 stages including the planetaries.
Hopefully the losses aren't too bad... :|
As long as it doesn't break, I'm not gonna
worry about it. I am a bit worried about bicycle chain.
So, I'm trying to find the strongest single speed chain I can.
I could adapt everything to #25 chain, but at the cost
of more work.

I definitely like the flexibility 3 stages of fixed gives you when it comes
to choosing gearing. The constraints due to size limits
inside the tubes and due to the disc brake adapters make
you appreciate the final drive adjustment.

I could probably change things on Stages 1 and 2 a little bit.
But not enough to warrant modifying the drive frame.


Stage 1
22:62 Polychain GT Motor to Jackshaft
Stage 2
11:19 Chain Jackshaft to Planetary input
Stage 3
Three Speed Planetary Hub
0.73:1
1.00:1
1.36:1
Final Stage 4
19:33 Chain Three Speed 6 bolt lsd to 6 bolt lsd on 8 speed hub.

Total motor reduction
First: 11.6:1
Second: 8.45:1
Third: 6.2:1

Pretty good range!! almost double from third to first.

The shaft came threaded on the end.
It is 2" or 50.8mm on the threaded end, 3-5/8" motor, 1-5/8" shaft on the mount side.
Total length is 7-1/4" or 184.15 mm.

 

[dontsendbubbamail]

Bubba, did you cut yours with a bandsaw? (yours looks much nicer)

I did use my bandsaw to cut the gear. It is the same HF band saw as you have. My method was to mount the gear on 1/2" drill rod, put this in the bandsaw's vice on top of a 1/2" piece of square tubing, slide a piece of sheet metal along the drill rod so that the vice will grip just the drill rod, and start cutting. After cutting, I chucked it in the drill press and put the bevel on the teeth.

I like your design. Keep posting pictures.

Bubba

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Thanks Bubba,

I bought two sprockets. So, I'll bandsaw the second one and keep the heat out.

 

[12p3phPMDC]

I cut off 11" of 4" x 1/2" Aluminum plate to make the motor mount bar.
It will bolt to the side of the 4"x6" frame and kick down, so that the motor
will mount below the main tube (like the block diagram from the earlier thread).

Then, I turned a 4" disc out of a scrap piece of 3/4 maple plywood on the wood lathe.
This will be a template for rounding the end of the motor mount on the router
table with the follower bit.

I hot glued the template to the end of the plate keeping
it centered. Hot glue really works great for template work. It sets up fast
and comes apart easily with a chisel when you are done and is strong enough
to not move when you start machining.

I knocked off the corners of the plate on the bandsaw to minimize
the router work. Then I fed the piece into the router bit, slowly and carefully, until
the bit touches the pattern bearing. Then I rotated the plate into the bit and
followed the pattern around until I reached the other side. I don't recommend this
method for small parts unless you can clamp them and feed them safely. The motor
frame and the motor mount are large enough and heavy enough to be fed into the router.
Came out pretty good.









But, I'm going to try and improve the quality of cut by looking
for bits that are made for aluminum. But, it's nothing a file won't dress up nicely.
The router has speed control, but the torque control loop can't keep up at low rpms...
So, I need to find the right formula.

I want to paint the drive the same color as the bike for stealth.

Tommorrow I'll lay out the mounting holes for the motor using the firewall motor mount that
came with the HXT.

 

[Miles]

Good to see this taking shape, 12p.

 

[dontsendbubbamail]

If you are mounting the motor timing pulley hub out, you may not have enough motor shaft sticking out. I used 3/8" aluminum and the motor shaft was about a 1/6" short of going all the way through the pulley. This is assuming that you are not planning to use the original motor mount.

Bubba

 

[12p3phPMDC]

Thanks Miles....

It's a relief to finally cut metal and see the plan come together.

Bubba,

The square tubing reminds me of your parallel setup. I like the aluminum wood composites..
I've been thinking about a suspended trike influenced by "Splinter" wood supercar, the
recumbent wood bike w/carbon fiber tube, and a velomobile.

Correct, I'm not going to use the HXT mount, just using it for a layout template.
I thought about slotting the motor mounts like Matt. But, the Polychain belts
jump from 425mm to 600mm (at least from the supplier I bought them from).
The 425 is too short and the 600 a bit long. So, I have to mount an idler wheel.

If the shafting is too short, I'll make a custom shaft.
But, lets see, 1-5/8" on the mount side. 1/2" plate, that leaves 1-1/8".
The 22 tooth GT2 pulley is 1.031" long....So, I should have 90 thousanths including a small gap.