Charging a Li battery from a 4Runner alternator.

zacksc

100 W
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Jan 26, 2019
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I do a lot of camping and biking from a 2008 4Runner. Unless I can find 110 volt power somewhere, it is hard to keep bike batteries charged. I was thinking of getting a 12 or 24 volt Li battery with a capacity around 1300 to 2000 Watt-hours that I can charge from the 4Runner alternator through a dc-dc converter at around 400 or 500 Watts. I am thinking that if it is 24 volt I can use the power a bit more easily and the wires from the dc-dc converter to the battery can be a bit smaller. On the other hand, 12 volt might be simpler. I believe that Victron and a company called RedArc sell converters for charging from a car alternator. One of the key things are looking for is the ability to obtain a lot of stored energy in a fairly short amount of driving time; fast charging (C/2) seems to be something Li batteries handle well. Any advice, about the general concept, the voltage, the implementation, etc... is most welcome. I am pretty new to this.
 
RunForTheHills' suggestion is the simplest and safest, albeit the slowest (as it will just charge at the rate you can already charge them at).

You need an inverter that can handle the total AC-side current of *all* the chargers you will have connected at the same time, *and* you also probably want a pure sinewave inverter, since the chargers may not be well-designed and/or unable to handle the usually-non-sine (dirty) AC output of many inverters. (I've blown up a few things over the years running them on common inverters).


Using another battery to store charge slowly from the alternator and then be able to more quickly charge your bike batteries has been done. But to do it you have to have a DC-DC converter that has the same kind of CC/CV output that your chargers do, or LED PSUs. If it doesn't, it won't regulate the current the way charging should be, and various problems with either the converter or the battery can happen, including destructive or even catastrophic failures.

Or the converter then has to feed a charger that does have the CC/CV output, but this wastes much more power and charging time--might as well just use the 12vdc-120vac inverter and plug your charger in. ;)



fast charging (C/2) seems to be something Li batteries handle well.

That depends on the specific battery. The cells might handle it (many are made for 0.5C charge rates, some even higher), but the battery as a whole may not, either because of wiring, connectors, or BMS limitations.

If the wiring or connector isn't able to handle the higher current it will heat up; this may be insignificant, or if they were only designed to just barely handle the original current they may heat enough to begin to fail--insulation may melt, etc., leaving it vulnerable to a short depending on routing of wiring, etc. It's unlikely to heat the insulation enough to actually catch fire on it's own, though a connector that fails by overheating, if it's made of typical soft plastic, may allow gravity or charging cable tension to deform the connector enough to move contacts within the plastic and depending on connector design to short to each other or other parts in the battery, which could lead to a fire then, or later.

The BMS charge FET(s) can only handle a certain amount of current without creating excess heat; the board is usually packed inside the battery in a way that doesn't allow it to shed that heat very well (and any heat it does shed is going mostly into the cells nearby, rather than thru the insulating plastic case / etc of the battery pack). It's unlikley to be much of an issue, but if they used the cheapest FET they could that would barely do the original job, it might not do a higher current very well for very long.

Another issue is age. As cells age, various problems increase. For instance, the cells become (more) different from each other, and charge at different rates--the higher the charge current the more obvious this problem may be. The cells in general become higher resistance, and heat up more for the same charge current, so a higher than usual current heats them even more.

How much the above stuff ends up being a problem also depends on how long the higher currents flow, so the bigger the battery pack and/or the farther it's discharged the longer they'll flow while it fills up, and the more the heating in those things will affect them.


So, it's generally safer to use only the same charging current that the original charger for the battery supports.

If the battery actually has a label spec for a higher charging current, then that should be safe, too (depending on the battery source; cheap batteries may already be pushing their limits at the lower current).
 
I do the van-life thing occasionally with my ebike (BBHSD @ 52v) in the back. The van has 200 watts of solar, a LFP 100 ah house battery independent of the starting battery and a 500 watt inverter. I travel with 2 chargers these days. The small Luna 3 amp charger I use in the van on the inverter with the solar and the 100 ah battery. This probably does 75% or my charging and works during travel time if needed. The 10 amp charger I carry I use at pavilions and parks (mains) when I need to charge in a hurry and there is an outlet. It's been working out well for me the last few years. Spent this winter on the Texas gulf coast. The van is due for a 1,000 watt inverter upgrade as the little 500 watt inverter struggles to run the ice maker. With the 1,000 watt inverter I can use the 10 amp charger in the van also if needed but it would be a big pull on the battery.
 
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Assuming you go with a 24v ebike battery:


This is a CC/CV boost converter. If you connect the input to your car's nominal 12v battery, you can then adjust the output voltage using a multimeter to match the top voltage of your chosen bike battery. You'll need to adjust current as well, so as not to damage your bike battery. This is now your new CC/CV charger. When the battery being charged approaches and then reaches the preset voltage, current will drop off and then reach zero. You would also need to use a 24volt ebike battery in this case, not a 12v battery, as a boost converter needs enough delta V between input and output.

Using a 12vdc to 120vac inverter, and plugging the charger into that inverter, is indeed the safest and simplest option. It also is 12vdc -> 120vac -> 24vdc. Two different conversions means two separate efficiency losses. With a boost converter like the one I linked, it would only be one conversion, 12vdc to 24vdc.

Downsides: you would need to keep the car/alternator running while charging, or you risk draining the car battery. Also, very important, by using a boost converter and needing to set your top voltage. For me, this is easy (I have used that above linked module to charge my motorcycle for the last two years), but you need to be comfortable with this level of hacking. If you do it incorrectly, you run the risk of setting the wrong top voltage and overcharging you battery, possibly damaging it or causing a thermal event. Please proceed at your own risk.
 
Get a 12V DC to 120V AC inverter and plug your regular charger into it.

Amazon.com
Thanks, and yes, I agree that that is the best way to charge the bike battery. I have a Jackery 1000 already in the 4Runner which has a 110 V inverter; but it doesn't hold enough total energy. It charges very slowly when I am driving; just 72 Watts as the input current is limited to 6 amps. A $400 LiFePO battery (in addition to the Jackery would more than double my energy storage capacity and increase my charging rate while driving from a mere 72 watts to about 400 Watts. So that feels like kind of a game changer. I think I can get a 1500 Watt-hour LiFePO for about $400. I am not sure though if I should get a 24 volt LiFePO battery or a 12 volt.
If the new LiFePO battery is 24 volts, then it would transfer energy to the Jackery at 144 Watts (6 amps x 24 volts). But then I would need to get a 12 volt to 24 volt converter to charge the LiFePO battery from the 4Runner alternator.
On the other hand, if the new LiFePO battery is 12 volts, then I can charge that from the alternator more easily but the rate of charging of the Jackery from the LiFePO, and the potential for pass-through to the Jackery inverter, is limited to 6 amps at 12 volts (instead of 6 amps at 24 volts).
Is this a good idea? Would 12 volts or 24 volts be a better choice?
 
Go with the 12 volt LFP house battery,.. 120-150 Ah are good value (<$400 ?), and have reliable bms with thermal protection etc.
a $50 battery box is a good addition with all connections ready made.
There are some great youtube video reviews of various makes and testing.
the DC/DC chargers from Victron or Redarc etc ( Ctek, Enerdrive, + several other reputable brands) are wellproven and industrial quality, with correct Li/LFP charge profiles , solar input, and bluetooth apps,. but can cost more than the battery !…especially if you are thinking 50 A charge rate
.. also, check if your alternator is a “smart” controlled unit, ( non continuous charge output) and if so, google how to work around that as it will interupt your charging time.
i assume you also keep a reliable mains 12 v charger on board for “oportunity” charge top ups ?
 
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Go with the 12 volt LFP house battery,.. 120-150 Ah are good value (<$400 ?), and have reliable bms with thermal protection etc.
a $50 battery box is a good addition with all connections ready made.
There are some great youtube video reviews of various makes and testing.
the DC/DC chargers from Victron or Redarc etc ( Ctek, Enerdrive, + several other reputable brands) are wellproven and industrial quality, with correct Li/LFP charge profiles , solar input, and bluetooth apps,. but can cost more than the battery !…especially if you are thinking 50 A charge rate
.. also, check if your alternator is a “smart” controlled unit, ( non continuous charge output) and if so, google how to work around that as it will interupt your charging time.
i assume you also keep a reliable mains 12 v charger on board for “oportunity” charge top ups ?
Thanks very much Hillhater. Victron and Red arc look good for dc-dc.
Regarding batteries, what do you think about SOK? I am thinking particularly about the 24 volt 100 aH SOK. I think I can charge that from the 4runner alternator with a Victron Orion tr smart 12-24 which is 15 amps on the 24 volt side (360 Watts). I guess I am leaning toward 24 volt unless there is a particular reason why 12 volt would be a better choice.
 
I am leaning toward 24 volt unless there is a particular reason why 12 volt would be a better choice.
It depends on what you intend to use it for.
most camping/ vanning gear (lights , pumps, showers, solar panels, etc) is still 12v so you have a wider range of kit to choose from.
but if you plan on using a microwave or induction plate etc , then 24v may be an advantage.
 
Go with the 12 volt LFP house battery,.. 120-150 Ah are good value (<$400 ?), and have reliable bms with thermal protection etc.
a $50 battery box is a good addition with all connections ready made.
There are some great youtube video reviews of various makes and testing.
the DC/DC chargers from Victron or Redarc etc ( Ctek, Enerdrive, + several other reputable brands) are wellproven and industrial quality, with correct Li/LFP charge profiles , solar input, and bluetooth apps,. but can cost more than the battery !…especially if you are thinking 50 A charge rate
.. also, check if your alternator is a “smart” controlled unit, ( non continuous charge output) and if so, google how to work around that as it will interupt your charging time.
i assume you also keep a reliable mains 12 v charger on board for “oportunity” charge top ups ?
Thanks for all the advice. Really helpful! I think I am going to get the li time mini 12 volt as you suggested.
And then I’m also planning to get an Orion- TR smart 12/12 30 amp converter for charging from my alternator. should I get the isolated or non-isolated.?
 
You might overheat the alternator if you pull too much. Not sure what a 4Runner alternator is rated for.
 
Maybe change it out? :lol:

Could use the "10,000W" one off this bike ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tCdENojnbM

or more realistically this:


Manufacturer ‎Bosch Automotive
Brand ‎Bosch Automotive
Model ‎AL9961LH
Item Weight ‎9 pounds
Product Dimensions ‎8.8 x 6.5 x 9.3 inches
Country of Origin ‎Mexico
Item model number ‎AL9961LH
Exterior ‎Machined
Manufacturer Part Number ‎AL9961LH
Amperage ‎160 Amps
Voltage ‎12 Volts
 
OP,

1. you can use a booster converter charger like this one:

this take 12v to 24v input and boosts the output volts per selection.

2. One word "Bluetti"
ya man, #1 is cheaper and I not a fan of the magic smoke :), so I prefer UL rated stuff.

How I do it in my van (camper/office)

solar panel/vehicle alternator > bluetti > A/C charger > Charge battery


Things to consider for alternator charging:

My Ford Transit 350 has a beefy alternator and Ford providers a connection point (CCP) which can deliver 60A at 12V.
But, I mean the big BUT (no pun) is that to use the power of the alternator, any alternator, one has to look at the output curve of the alternator vs RPM.

In order to use my alternator to charge the batt or draw loads of power, I have to use my HIGH IDLE switch option to raise the idle rpm of the engine.

For my DI 3.5 Twin turbo ecoboost engine, I opted not to do this. (see alternator curve)

For you I would suggest

1. Solar panel > Bluetti

AC70 is a great Bluetti unit that I have and suffices my needs, instead of solar, I have 4 KW of battery feeding it.

For battery, look up DCHOUSE on ebay or similar prices, I bought a 100ah 12v for $150,
 

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The thing I’m most unsure about now is whether the DC DC converter* should be isolated or non-isolated.

* specifically I am thinking probably a Victron Orion tr smart 12-12 30 amp. They make two kinds: isolated and non-isolated. And I don’t really understand what that means or which one I should get
 
The thing I’m most unsure about now is whether the DC DC converter* should be isolated or non-isolated.
A non-isolated DC-DC charger, or a buck converter, works by using an inductor coil to regulate the output voltage.

This type of charger does not provide electrical isolation between the input and output circuits, and the input and output grounds are typically connected.

Non-isolated chargers are typically smaller, more efficient, and less expensive than their isolated counterparts. Still, they may not be suitable for applications that require electrical isolation or protection against voltage spikes.
 
..i think you missed the original question..” how quickly to charge from the alternator”
the Bluetti is a nice unit, but does nothing to help with the alternator fast charge issue.
Yes, sorry,
I would charge the bluetti off the alternator and use the bluetti and an A/C charger to charge the battery. Better and cheaper solutions for charging via AC than DC at higher voltages.
 
Isolated or non-isolated probably won't make a difference for your application. If in doubt, the isolated one will be less likely to have issues. But you really want a battery charger, not just a dc-dc converter.

If it was me, I'd go for a 12vdc-120vac sine wave inverter big enough to handle your charger, and a separate 120v charger. This will be slightly less efficient, but much less likely to have problems. And you can charge from the grid if you have that available. A big inverter can run for a long time off the car battery if the engine is running.
 
But you really want a battery charger, not just a dc-dc converter.
Most of these Automotive dc-dc chargers do have high current (20-60amp) CC/CV charger capability.
The Victron and Redarc etc have proggramable AGM, PBA, LICo,LFP, etc,..algorithms With bluetooth remote programming and monitoring For charge rate, final voltage cut, etc….and are industrial grade units.
 
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I would charge the bluetti off the alternator and use the bluetti and an A/C charger to charge the battery. Better and cheaper solutions for charging via AC than DC at higher voltages.
Again… He already has a 120v inverter (and bat’ chargers for the bike), ..
What he is wanting is more storage (Li house battery) , and a way of fast/safe charging it from the car alternator.
 
Again… He already has a 120v inverter (and bat’ chargers for the bike), ..
What he is wanting is more storage (Li house battery) , and a way of fast/safe charging it from the car alternator.
Thanks very much Hillhater. That is a really accurate and concise summary.
I read those things you posted regarding isolated and non isolated. (Thank you !!) It seems like they’re really different in design. Much more different than I would have imagined. I’m noting that the non-isolated is lighter weight and more efficient and I’m thinking that maybe I should just try to use a non-isolated version. There’s no sensitive electronics involved, just charging a battery. If I’m understanding this correctly, the non-isolated is lighter, smaller and stays cooler. I hope I’m understanding that correctly.
What’s your opinion specifically of the Victron Orion tr smart 12 – 12 volt 30 amp? I think if I was trying to go for 50 Amps, I might focus on the red arc, but at 30 Amps I kind of like the Orion TR smart. What do you think?
 
Ihave used the 30 amp Orion TR Smart unit (non isolated) and can say it is a solid unit with good features .The blutooth programming and monitoring is especially useful,.. even if the range did seem to need a nearby phone position.
Victron have very good dealer and customer service support .
I am not sure the higher current units are an advantage as i never managed to get more than 20 amps through to the battery.. maybe very large guage connection cables would help ? (eventhough mine were specd for 50A ?)
 
Most of these Automotive dc-dc chargers do have high current (20-60amp) CC/CV charger capability.
The Victron and Redarc etc have proggramable AGM, PBA, LICo,LFP, etc,..algorithms With bluetooth remote programming and monitoring For charge rate, final voltage cut, etc….and are industrial grade units.

Got it. I guess those are battery chargers. And nice ones too.
 
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