Cheapest backup power for house? Discuss.

[deronmoped]

The power here in San Diego goes out maybe once every ten to twenty years. Another reason to live in a mild climate

Deron.

 

[docnjoj]

If the power goes out in my "mild" climate in the summer, people start to die! 98F and 95H and it really gets dangerous in the daytime. For the rest of the year its great!
otherDoc

 

[dogman dan]

No kidding! 95 is no fun when the house is that temp. Even here where the humidity can be so low ,you'll do anything to get the AC back on in the summer. People talk about it being a dry heat so it don't feel hot, but when the humidity is 5% the temp 110 or more, and you get about 20 mph of wind, you can feel yourself turning into jerky. Once the summer rains come, you can still get 95 or more degrees and the humidity will be 80% on the day after it rains. But at least then the breeze feels better.

 

[Rod]

This may get people thinking, http://www.veljkomilkovic.com .
This guy has being working on this project for quite a while, I think that if he placed a conector rod at the end of the hammer to operate a large flywheel which would be connected to a generator via a chain drive, the generator could in turn power a pulsed electro magnet to keep the pendulium swinging, and the excess power could be used to power anything else.
This is a project I plan to start on as soon as I get my Trike perfected.

 

[mcstar]

OK, what's so amazing about this guy's pendulum machine? He's just replicated the exact same mechanisms that clock makers and oil dericks have been doing for hundreds of years. His claim is that it's an amazing thing that his little <20 lbs of input to the system can lift his 74lb weight an inch or two, but what he's built is simply a lever and pulley based system (that's storing kinetic energy in the motion of the pendulum). This is no different than they type of force multiplication that happens in any other lever and pulley machine. It's not amazing or even novel. He's just "discovered" what physics has known for ages. Namely, you can convert mechanical energy easily between kinetic and potential sources and use levels and pulley's to multiply force for the task at hand. This is a FIRST YEAR college physics problem. What's the point of his web site and videos other than to inform the rest of the world that he's never taken any science courses?

His claim that it can "create energy" is patently absurd. To keep his little swing moving it will require an energy source of some kind, just like a kid on a park swing doesn't continue moving unless the kid puts energy into the system (by shifting his C.O.G). I suppose if you don't understand the proper way to measure the input and output energy balance of a dynamic system you could be easily confused by such a snake oil salesman.

 

[Rod]

mcstar has missed thre point of my post. It is true that Victor M. has not taken his idea far enough, but think about the fact that a large flywheel could be powered by the system. The flywheel would be used to power a generator and the generator would power the electro magnet which keeps the system going instead of pushing the pendilum by hand.
A 48" flywheel turning at 200 rpm would turn a 3" sprocket at 3200 rpm.

 

[mcstar]

mcstar has missed thre point of my post. It is true that Victor M. has not taken his idea far enough, but think about the fact that a large flywheel could be powered by the system. The flywheel would be used to power a generator and the generator would power the electro magnet which keeps the system going instead of pushing the pendilum by hand.
A 48" flywheel turning at 200 rpm would turn a 3" sprocket at 3200 rpm.

ROD, this will not work! You seem to be missing the point of my comments, or perhaps you too need to study your physics and energy balance models. A flywheel cannot produce any power, period. That's not what flywheels do. Flywheels store power in the form of kinetic energy. If you attempt to do as you say and add a generator and then another motor driven by the generator, the entire system will simply stop. This is not a matter of opinion, it's a simple fact. Try it for yourself if you doubt it. I have in many ways. The fact is that the generator will require an amount of energy to spin that is greater in measure than the amount of energy that the motor can produce. These loses simply exists. There is no way around them through clever engineering, wishful thinking etc. This amount of energy must be added back into to the system to allow it to continue to move. There is no energy input into this guy's flywheel, so that amount of energy needed to power the generator will very quickly bleed the system's oscillations down to a halt. Notice, how in the video, the system slows down as soon as he stops adding energy (using his hand). This bleeding off of energy is because of the frictional losses in the system. Adding another energy loss (generator - motor) would stop it even faster. Over unity is simply not possible because you will ALWAYS have to add energy to keep any system moving. You cannot wish that reality away.

 

[TylerDurden]

No kidding! 95 is no fun when the house is that temp. Even here where the humidity can be so low ,you'll do anything to get the AC back on in the summer. People talk about it being a dry heat so it don't feel hot, but when the humidity is 5% the temp 110 or more, and you get about 20 mph of wind, you can feel yourself turning into jerky. Once the summer rains come, you can still get 95 or more degrees and the humidity will be 80% on the day after it rains. But at least then the breeze feels better.

Misters and fans are also no joke... they work pretty well.

Apologies for repeating myself... energy is overly abundant: the issue is storage for application at arbitrary time and place.

 

[ebinary]

mcstar has missed thre point of my post. It is true that Victor M. has not taken his idea far enough, but think about the fact that a large flywheel could be powered by the system. The flywheel would be used to power a generator and the generator would power the electro magnet which keeps the system going instead of pushing the pendilum by hand.
A 48" flywheel turning at 200 rpm would turn a 3" sprocket at 3200 rpm.

ROD, this will not work! You seem to be missing the point of my comments, or perhaps you too need to study your physics and energy balance models. A flywheel cannot produce any power, period. That's not what flywheels do. Flywheels store power in the form of kinetic energy. If you attempt to do as you say and add a generator and then another motor driven by the generator, the entire system will simply stop. This is not a matter of opinion, it's a simple fact. Try it for yourself if you doubt it. I have in many ways. The fact is that the generator will require an amount of energy to spin that is greater in measure than the amount of energy that the motor can produce. These loses simply exists. There is no way around them through clever engineering, wishful thinking etc. This amount of energy must be added back into to the system to allow it to continue to move. There is no energy input into this guy's flywheel, so that amount of energy needed to power the generator will very quickly bleed the system's oscillations down to a halt. Notice, how in the video, the system slows down as soon as he stops adding energy (using his hand). This bleeding off of energy is because of the frictional losses in the system. Adding another energy loss (generator - motor) would stop it even faster. Over unity is simply not possible because you will ALWAYS have to add energy to keep any system moving. You cannot wish that reality away.

I think the point was inexpensive storage of energy. Even with small, irregular inputs, you could preserve the energy in a relatively efficient pendulum, and request much larger output of energy as your needs demanded. As you probably know, flywheels are quite dangerous. A pendulm seem less so. Maybe it would be possible to store the energy required to heat a house at night, by capturing small sources of kinetic energy during the day.

The guy says right on the website that he isn't attempting to violate any laws of thermodynamics (I think maybe he says archemedes).

Anyhoo, a big swinging heavy object is probably cheaper than a battery. Hmmm.... Dead lead acid battery are big and heavy

 

[PaulM]

I think the point was inexpensive storage of energy. Even with small, irregular inputs, you could preserve the energy in a relatively efficient pendulum, and request much larger output of energy as your needs demanded. As you probably know, flywheels are quite dangerous. A pendulm seem less so. Maybe it would be possible to store the energy required to heat a house at night, by capturing small sources of kinetic energy during the day.

A pendulum would have to be enormous to store any useful amount of energy. Energy stored in a pendulum is simply mass times the vertical distance it displaces. Suppose you have a 50 Ah 12 volt lead acid battery which can give you approx 600 Wh of energy (obviously over 20 hours :lol: ), or 2160000 joules of energy. If a pendulum with the same energy storage has a vertical displacement of 1 meter, it would need a mass of 220408 kg or 484898 lb. I think I'll buy the battery!

Alternatively, a flywheel made of steel, 1 meter in diameter and 10 cm thick, would have to spin at 2259.4 rpm for the same energy.

 

[vanilla ice]

Put some rollers under the SUV. Hey, its equipment thats sitting there anyway, compared with a gen ICE that would be an extra purchase. I'm surprised nothing like this is marketed. The engine would be at like 5% load so I doubt heat would be an issue. I've seen rollers at the race track used to 'bump start' race bikes with no kickstart or starter. Wouldn't be too much a stretch to hook up a genny to a setup like that.

 

[PaulM]

Looking further through my old physics textbook, it gives an example of an actual case where a test was done on a steel rotor with a mass of 272 kg and a radius of 38.0 cm. The disk was brought up to speed and at about 14000 rpm, it exploded, destroying much of the test room. The energy of rotation was calculated to be 2.1x10^7 J.

Using my "Engineering Power Tools" converter, this is equivalent to 10.4 lbs of TNT. Or only 5.83 kWh.

Of course, if we guess that this energy was released in 0.5 seconds, that gives a power value of 42 MW.

 

[PaulM]

Put some rollers under the SUV. Hey, its equipment thats sitting there anyway, compared with a gen ICE that would be an extra purchase. I'm surprised nothing like this is marketed. The engine would be at like 5% load so I doubt heat would be an issue. I've seen rollers at the race track used to 'bump start' race bikes with no kickstart or starter. Wouldn't be too much a stretch to hook up a genny to a setup like that.

I've honestly considered this, but I think the cost of making a "marketable" system would be more a separate ICE generator. You need a roller system strong enough to support half of a vehicle, some way to tether the vehicle, and some sort of way to maintain the frequency properly (the vehicle's cruise control would likely be sufficient). The generator would be slightly more expensive as it needs to be a two bearing unit, but otherwise would be basically the same. The liability issues would be enormous though, imagine someone not tethering the vehicle properly, forgetting they have an AWD, leaving it in 4WD, etc. I don't think the average consumer could be trusted with this.

 

[TylerDurden]

Generator RPM could be maintained by a mechanical governor.

A system that is added like old-school aftermarket air-conditioning might be better than wheel-driven PTO. Since gen-heads are kinda large, perhaps a hydraulic pump could drive it in a convenient location and also manage the RPM regulation.

 

[pwbset]

A pendulum would have to be enormous to store any useful amount of energy.

I'd already looked into everything from stored hydro to mass/mechanical to compressed air to flywheels etc. etc. and found the same hilarious conclusions. If I remember right I came up with like an olympic sized swimming pool of water suspended a couple thousand feet in the air or something ridiculous. Or a block of cement like a D10 Caterpillar a mile in the air etc etc. Haha! Clearly if it was that easy everyone would be doing it. Compressed air (compressed via solar) interested me the most because if you could capture the waste heat to warm your home during compression so much the better. Use the waste cold on de-compression for the fridge/chest freezer or whatever. Never could find a little turbine that would work with that affordably. Plus you'd need a hella big air tank. Anyway... neat ideas, but completely impractical except on massive scales.

Oh yeah.. why couldn't they just bury a flywheel? Make like a little underground cement bunker with hatch for maintenance etc. In case of Death Staring... who'd care? Or if you had the money get the composite ones that just turn to dust when they explode! :lol:

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

State of the art flywheel energy storage:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/11/bosch-developin.html#more

Bosch Motorsport is developing a Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) for use in motor racing. The modular KERS kit covers racing requirements from Formula 1 to series such as the DTM or 24-hour races. Bosch presented the variable, modular KERS kit at the Professional MotorSport World Expo 2008 (11-13 November) in Cologne, Germany.

Hybrid systems by Bosch Motorsport comprise an energy storage system, the electric motor, and the KERS controller, containing the power electronic, battery management, and management system for hybrid and engine functions.

A lithium-ion battery with scalable capacity or a flywheel energy storage device is used for storing energy. The latter can store up to 750 kilojoules (0.208 kWh) of energy. The electric motors weigh between four and eight kilograms with a maximum power level of 60 kW.

Due to its modular structure, KERS from Bosch can be put together individually in terms of weight, robustness, and performance to suit the requirements of the respective race series.

In comparison with the hybrid technology of production vehicles, the concepts for motor racing are considerably more powerful, and at the same time more compact. We are already holding discussions with many teams from various racing series.
—Klaus Böttcher, director Bosch Motorsport

 

[vanilla ice]

I think the cutoff thing is required here too before you can tie in to the grid.

Biggest issue with house flywheels is how much power does it take to keep them spinning at high rpm for that 0.0002% of the time they get used. Underground bunker is great but the making of the vacuum case for them to spin in is the hard part. I'd like them for trains/trains stations or buses/bus stops cause theyd get a lot of use. In these cases the energy bleed off over time isn't a big deal.. you've got big heavy things regularly and repeatedly going from full speed to zero and back to full speed. Ideal for an on board or underground station setup to recover. No need for the fancy case.

The race bike starter rollers are designed for an open diff vehicle where only the one unloaded wheel spins. Not sure how modern diffs would take to being spun like that for extended periods of time. I'd bet they can handle it for the power levels we're talking about. This car roller gen idea so damn practical, plus you can use almost any vehicle to power the thing. Thats the downside to the PTO setup- drive the PTO vehicle to work, wife's stuck at home with no power in a blackout. Other case any other family/friend/neighbor car would do. Another big roller plus for me is your power output is basically only limited by your gen head since you gots over 100hp on tap. 5-10hp ICE gennys are affordable but when you get up there, prices get outrageous for off the shelf.

Seems like the closest things on the web to a roller gen build are the DIY dyno builds..

 

[TylerDurden]

To make the DynoGenny genius-proof, you prolly need a rack that the user drives onto and gets all four wheels out of contact with terrafirma.

 

[Sinewave]

Siberian Husky on a treadmill...

im serious...pets do nothing, its time to put mans best friend to work.

get a cow and make it walk a circle and turn a generator...with the strength of a cow i bet it would be able to produce a constant 1000 watts for however long a cow can walk...and it will cut your lawn also..no more worries about wind, link 2-3 cows and increase the power produced.

it sounds stupid but it wll work..to keep the batteries charged.

 

[vanilla ice]

To make the DynoGenny genius-proof, you prolly need a rack that the user drives onto and gets all four wheels out of contact with terrafirma.

Yea the PTO is more litigation proof, important these days for marketability. And if you can stow the PTO gear in the trunk you've got a genny-to-go. Thats neat. Although I'd imagine the universal open-diff single-tire roller-job would be trunk-stowable also. IMO rollers the way to go for DIY. The flywheel and pendulum stuff is pretty out there for a shade tree type.

 

[mcstar]

The flywheel and pendulum stuff is pretty out there for a shade tree type.

It's not only "out there" it also still requires an energy source of some kind to keep it oscillating. Maybe wind power or some form of solar would work, but something.

 

[Rod]

i used the wrong wording when I said flywheel in my previous post. I should have said sproket or pulley. The electro magnet I spoke about would be used to keep the pendilum in motion.
If you look through the overunity website you should find Veljko's first post under gravity devices. in it he used a bicycle frame for the beam, the pendilum was attached to the rear dropouts, the bottom bracket was attached to the post and a connector rod attached to the headtube was used to power a piston style water pump. I know from experience that it requires at least 10 lbs of pressure on that lever to pump water with those pumps, they were meant to be hand powered.
My idea was to use a heaver and longer beam, 5' of 2"x4" mild steel would be enough, attach a connector rod one end of the beam to turn a 48" diameter sproket, a chain would turn a 3" diameter sproket on the shaft of the generator. This would be a ratio of 16-1. 200 impacts per minute on the beam would turn the larger sproket at 200 rpm, this would turn the small sproket at 3200 rpm, which would be enough to produce electricity from the generator.
I did post this idea on the overunity website and I see Veljko has sense patented something similar.
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com
Rod

 

[mcstar]

So, what provides the power for the electro magnet? Have you calculated the energy you need to power the electromagnet over time? I can tell you right now if you calculate the power needed to run your pump, then add about 10% to it, you'll then know how much power you need to run the electro-magnet thingy.

 

[Rod]

Let's assume a shaft length on the pendilum of 1 meter and a pendilum weight of 40 kg. 1 joule is the energy required to lift 1 kg 1 meter in 1 second which is equiavlent to 10 watts.
Therefore the energy required to lift the 40 kg pendilum 60 times per minute =10 watts x 40 kg = 400 watts. The actual energy required would be less than this because gravity and inertia would carry the pendilum most of the way through it's swing. Because the device is a double ossialator each swing of the pendilum causes the other end of the beam to move twice, therefore 60 swings per minute on the pendilum = 120 rpm on the large sproket.
I have not yet tested this theory but I think the pendilum would swing faster than once per second, likely closer to 3 or 4 times per second, and the magnet would have to be pulsed every third or fourth swing to keep it moving. This would be done with a cam actuated by the shaft of the pendilum as it swings by.
The only way I have to test this theory is to build the machine, the build does not have to be expensive, a used generator with a blown engine can be purchased cheaply, the beam can be made of any heavy scrap steel, H beams, 2x4, or even a wooden 6x6. The post would have to be mounted solidly, maybe set it in a hole and pour cement around it. To attach the beam to the post 2 pillow block bearings and a length of round rod could be used. It would be perferable to make the beam adjustible on the post to find the point of maxium movement and power. The pendilum itself could be made from a steel pail filled with cement with a steel rod anchored in the center of it, attach it to the beam with a yoke and a bearing. The connector rod can be made from a peice of flat bar with a hole for a bearing drilled in each end and a short shaft afixed to each of the large sproket and the end of the beam.
Any backyard mechanic could build this system for $50.00 + the cost of a junk gererator, the best inventions were not the result of engineers but of ordinary people tinkering in their backyards.
Once again, this is not overunity or perpitual motion. most of the energy to keep the device running comes from gravity and inertia. Eventually the bearings or the generator will wear out and the machine will stop.

 

[PaulM]

1 joule is the energy required to lift 1 kg 1 meter in 1 second which is equiavlent to 10 watts.

I think you're a little off on this: 1 Joule is the energy required to apply a force of 1 Newton over a distance of 1 meter. If you do this in 1 second, it requires a power of 1 Watt. So your 10 Watt figure is actually correct, as it takes 9.8 N of force to lift 1 kg of mass (on the Earth's surface).

most of the energy to keep the device running comes from gravity and inertia.

I'm sorry, but this does not work. Gravity cannot supply energy, unless you are starting higher than you are finishing, and then only once. Inertia can only supply energy once (incorrect terminology, but oh well) as in say a battering ram, but there still has to be energy input for the object to acquire inertia.

You claim that this is not overunity, but that is exactly what you are proposing. You cannot get more energy out of the generator than you are putting into the electromagnet. I don't think such a device would be that efficient so the magnet will require a lot more energy than the generator can produce.

You seem to be quite set on this idea, so please build it and prove all the doubters wrong.