Considering an e-bike over a new car

[Sid]

Ok, so at the moment it's a viable financial alternative - e-bike, or car. I'm not planning on taking any major trips in this car (for the money I'm paying for it, I don't trust it out of the county line), so distance isn't a factor. I was wondering if I could get some answers that I've been looking for. I'm looking at a crystalite phoenix 4840 Racer by the way.

1.) What sort of treatment will I get from people in cars on my bike, assuming I follow the general principles of "vehicular cycling"?

2.) Will an e-bike accelerate very fast? I've heard that the statistics listed on electric rider are very conservative, but there are several areas in my commute that are stop and go traffic and the lights are synched to a cars general acceleration, that is, a car will start, get past four or five lights at a time, and have to stop. Will I have more or less the same abilities?

3.) How hard is it to pedal on my own if I run out of battery power?

4.) Has anyone considered making a powered trailer? Kind of like a genset trailer, but it has batteries instead and the wheels on it have motors of their own. Immagine in of these fillied with only batteries and the controllers for the motors.

Also, I suppose it should be noted that I weigh about 150, and my text-books (which are always with me on my commute) add up to about 30 lbs.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Link]

1) Seriously depends on your area. It's okay here in crowded So-Cal, but it can range from getting flashed by hot chicks (I swear, there's really a guy who had this happen), to getting crap thrown at you. I hear it's pretty bad in Texas.

2) Acceleration depends on what motor and how much power you have. I figure you need around 2kW to match a car (about what I have). Thing is, you'd better get out of the way of the cars quick, because they're going to be able to keep accelerating at the same rate for a while. Unless you've got a pretty high top speed, the BEMF of the motor will start limiting the amps being drawn and you'll not accelerate as fast as you were. This may not be a problem if you've got a fast bike or the streets your on have low speed limits.

3) Depends on the type of motor. Ones that freewheel (like geared hubs or something like a Cyclone) won't be any harder to pedal than a normal bike. Torquey direct-drive hubs like the Golden Motor or X5 will add loads of drag. I used to be able to get my cheap MTB up to about 25-27mph, but the motor I have adds so much drag that I can't get past about 15.

4) This has been done, but not often. There's no reason why you can't.

And, very importantly, what kind of budget do you have?

 

[Sid]

I'm looking at a $2,000 budget. My thought process is "I can either get a $2000 car with god knows what wrong with it, or I can get a new e-bike and not pay for gas!"

Most of my commute, if avoiding highways is limited to about 30-35 mph, so that's not a big worry either.

And like I said, I'm looking at the phoenix 4840, mainly because I haven't seen any others that can really match it in speed ('cept for the slipstream, but that kills my pedals) but also because I can easily get to lawrence if I have to.

 

[Link]

Pheonix 4840...if I remember that weird naming scheme Electric Rider gave these kits, I believe you're talking about a Crystalyte X5303 with a 48V 40A controller. Good choice. The X5 line hubs are about the most powerful you can get.

You might want to consider one of the 400-series Crystalyte motors (I think a 405 will get you to 35mph on 48V). They're not as robust as the X5s, but they're cheaper and lighter. Good if you're not looking for a 40mph ebike.

Either of those motors should be able to keep up with a car at low speeds on 40-50A.

 

[TylerDurden]

Also consider climate. If you ain't squeemish about riding in the rain or cold, an ebike is a good option (not so good if you don't ride it, eh).

If you would consider a standard bicycle, but the commute speed/range/effort are the issue: ebike good.

If you would consider a moped/motorcycle, but prefer paths, trails, stealth, portability and electrification: ebike good.

If you love A/C, smoking, yakking, big stereos, SUV stature, loud pipes and... getting raped at the pump: ebike bad.

(The power trailer is a fine option if you don't need to rack on a bus or park up a stairway.)

 

[mvadventure]

As Tyler said, consider climate. A Crystalyte system is NOT good in the rain and I really don't know if any kit hub motors are. You might want to evaluate your need for speed, 35 MPH on a bicycle is fast and bike frames heavy enough to support a motor, battery and controller along with all the other stuff you'll need aren't designed to go that fast. Rim brakes or disc brakes, they have a lot of weight to try and stop.

Life is a compromise and so is an ebike. The top of the food chain includes the Optibike which will, with slight mods, meet your requirement but exceeds your budget. The Giant is within your budget but won't meet your specs. A home built/mod to do both can be in your budget but requires planning and that seems to be your intention here.

My ebike provides 90% of my personal transportation but it will NOT operate in the rain and has proven that every time I've tried. Shorted controller, shorted motor, throttle failures, etc. Plus, and a big plus, rim brakes are much worse in the rain.

Each and every component of your bike becomes much more important. Look at the threads here on this forum just on tires for an example, spokes are the same, saddles, lights, helmets, etc, the list goes on and on.

The last thing I want to do is discourage you but IMHO to be forewarned is to be forearmed. 35 MPH is expensive, dangerous and illegal on an ebike lacking registration, license and insurance. 20 MPH is the legal speed limit most everywhere.
Good luck, Mike

 

[dogman dan]

I love my ebike. But my wife made me look like a fool when she bought a used chinese 150cc gas scooter for 1/3 of what I spent on good batteries, a motor I fried and bike mods. If it breaks, she can buy another at the same price and still be under what I've spent.

Tyler has is right on as usual. If you want to ride in busy streets, maybe a gas scooter, or horrors, the car would be best. Even on the gas scooter at the same speed as them, THEY WON'T SEE YOU! Its up to you to ride as though you are invisible and be ready when they turn right into your path. You can steer a skid with the front wheel when the rear wheel is locked up, but lock up the front, and you go in a straight line.

I still prefer my ebike, but I can ride some relatively nice bike lanes or trails in my town, or the back street routes are still good. Not really that big a city here even after the recent boom. But I still have a car avaliable when I need it, like bad weather.

How far you go makes a big difference too. I have a long ride, but could put up with a lot more in the way of car dodging if it was short, like under 5 miles.

Riding wet I know squat about, but I do belive that a few puddles can be dealt with easy. Riding daily in Seattle or Vancouver is another story. Some suceed there, and some not.

 

[Sid]

Well, Even if 35 is way to fast, I can peak around 27 according to my speedo for about 1/4 a mile and run fine with it. Even being able to keep a constant speed would be nice, around the end of my commute, my average speed drops down to 10 mph, and that makes cars very mad.

 

[pwbset]

Well, Even if 35 is way to fast, I can peak around 27 according to my speedo for about 1/4 a mile and run fine with it.

Say that again with 35-40lbs of added ebike gear and a wet road. :wink: I top out at 30mph and it's just downright scary to me trying to stop at that speed. If something pops out in front of you you're toast. Almost never go over 20mph at this point. Would also echo Dogman's comment that no one in a car will see you... ever... bright clothes, orange flags, foghorns etc. etc. They simply don't see bikes. Period. Believe it.

 

[Link]

A 400-series or Wilderness Energy BD/BL36 would be a better choice all around if you're okay with less than 30mph. Using an X5 for less than 30 is a sin around here. :wink:

Oh, and drivers DO respond to bright, neon orange. I've had a teacher say I looked like a traffic cone once when I was wearing mine, which is good for visibility.

 

[swbluto]

As Tyler said, consider climate. A Crystalyte system is NOT good in the rain and I really don't know if any kit hub motors are.

My ebike provides 90% of my personal transportation but it will NOT operate in the rain and has proven that every time I've tried. Shorted controller, shorted motor, throttle failures, etc. Plus, and a big plus, rim brakes are much worse in the rain.

It's possible to protect all of those from the rain(Well, the throttle would require a specifically designed throttle, but it's possible.) and adapt accordingly(For rims, use "Salmon Pads", otherwise just use Discs. You really should be using larger discs anyways with the kinetic energies involved with higher-speed e-bikes and subsequent heating and brake fade.), but I'm surprised about the "shorted motor": Do you mean failed hall-sensors? There's two well-known solutions to that: Bypass the hall sensors by using a pedal-first controller or use a sensor-less adapter module. Do you have any evidence that a "shorted motor" has happened? With a Crystalyte, in particular?

 

[swbluto]

Pheonix 4840...if I remember that weird naming scheme Electric Rider gave these kits, I believe you're talking about a Crystalyte X5303 with a 48V 40A controller. Good choice. The X5 line hubs are about the most powerful you can get.

You might want to consider one of the 400-series Crystalyte motors (I think a 405 will get you to 35mph on 48V).

I don't think so. My 407 only gets to 26 mph, unassisted, and I suspect a 405 would only get somewhere around 31 mph just looking at the power curve(Man, someone should supplement that graph with some-kind of physical forces curve and subsequent power-required so you can immediately predict what speed you'd be going. You'd just really need the motor, hill-climb percentage, guesstimated frontal area, weight and wind speed. I might just program that... ). With pedaling, and assuming you have the right gearing for assisting at those speeds, you could probably get near 35 mph.

 

[Link]

Yeah, I know. I kinda just look for a point where I think the efficiency curve and power requirement for a given speed should be around.

The throttle is really easy to waterproof if you're not using whatever LED indicators you may have. Pop it open and put some hot glue on the hall sensor's legs. I've managed to do this to all of my throttles.

Third solution to fried hall sensors: Open up the motor and cover their legs with epoxy. This should be done from the factory, but, for some reason, it's usually not. I kid of found it odd that the low-quality Golden Motor had covered the legs nicely and the bolt holes on the cover plates seemed to be drilled out very precisely; the BD-36 is very finicky about how the bolts line up, and it's really annoying.

(Thanks for the tip on the Salmon's.)

 

[SamSpeed]

Back in the mid 70s, my wife and I decided to buy two good bikes instead of one cheap car. We were in college and had various jobs. That was a good decision, those bikes served us well and we still have hers and still ride it. No e-bikes back then but this shows my bias.

I have always tended to ride VC style, at least to the extent that it makes sense. My e-bike is just a couple months old, but I wondered about this same thing when I got it. Keep in mind I'm pretty new to this game but here's what I found.

You can't jump curbs ('least I cant'). The motor and battery about doubled the weight of my bike, and you can only get so light in the saddle. So I had to abandon that style of riding. So I find myself riding even more VC than before just because of that.

I don't dread stop signs nearly as much as I used to. That throttle is a wonderful thing. On peddle bike, when I had to stop I'd use it as an excuse to take a break, and do a lot of coasting -- and of course timing the lights. But that throttle can be compelling. I find myself keeping my speed up and using heavy braking on the stops because I know I won't wear myself out getting up to speed again. Brake pads are cheap.

As far as response from other vehicles -- I've had several folks pull out in front of me. They probably just saw a bicycle and did not bother to try to judge speed, and I'm probly going twice normal bike speed. That is something I really watch out for.

On the other hand, there is a 35mph narrow 4 lane stretch that I always dreaded. With the ebike and peddling, I can ride easy in the high 20's and that seems acceptable to the flow of traffic. So I just take the right lane and go for it. That, I think, is good defense against the right hook. In reality, there's lots of cars that don't go faster than that anyway.

Overall, the additional speed and acceleration the ebike provides makes me more comfortable in traffic. I'm more bold about taking the lane and generally, riding a bit more "vehicularly" than I used to. Just my story, hope it helps.

 

[dogman dan]

I wasn't trying to say don't do it, just be aware of the car drivers tendency to ignore anything smaller than a dump truck. Since I ride some bike trails, I have the biggest problems where they cross intersections. Nothing more dangerous than a crosswalk with the walk light green. The other day a lady looked right at me and stopped, so I started to cross the crosswalk, and she started rolling again. Guess I should have jumped out while she was still moving so she'd know I was crossing.

Link, wearing orange, or bright yellow like I do, is not to be relied on. You'll learn in time as the close calls pile up in your list. Now after 40 years on bikes, mopeds, motorcyles, and now ebikes, I just act like I'm invisible, and assume they are aiming at me. On the bright side, I haven't had beer cans thrown at me in years.

 

[Link]

Yah, but it helps. Looking like a traffic guard at first glance makes you a lot more conspicuous than a black tee. Whether they actually give you any courtesy is another story...

My solution is a mixture of slight paranoia and avoiding roads when possible.

 

[swbluto]

Yah, but it helps. Looking like a traffic guard at first glance makes you a lot more conspicuous than a black tee. Whether they actually give you any courtesy is another story...

My solution is a mixture of slight paranoia and avoiding roads when possible.

Do you mean arterials and sub-arterials? I find it hard to avoid roads except for using sidewalks but then I impose a speed limit on sidewalks for my own safety and I find that unwelcoming.

 

[Zoot Katz]

I regard all vehicle operators as a potential menace and treat them accordingly.

I've seen too many squashed traffic cones to trust a colour to keep me safe.
There's plenty of dead and injured road side and construction workers who were dutifully wearing their orange and retro reflective yellow vests.

Now there's cell phone induced tunnel vision and reduced reaction times with which we must contend. Throw in the over the counter prescription drug cocktails plus sleep deprivation and it's a wonder we get anywhere. Statistically, bicycling is a safe activity compared to motorcycling, walking, home repairs, sky diving and roller skating to name a few. It does us no good to pretend that it isn't.

There are six different types of colour blindness. The colour most commonly distinguishable among them is a day-glo yellow. My favourite is day-glo fluorescent hot-pink. People think I'm addled so give me plenty of room. It also holds the eye longer than orange, yellow or red. I have a winter and a summer outer layer of hot pink. Genuine day-glo colours work best in dawn, dusk and overcast conditions. White is best for night visibility. Stealth riding is an all together different ball of wax.

While driving, motorcycling and bicycling the first most visible thing to me is a white helmet. Mainly because it's higher than anything else. Those flags on recumbents are all but invisible from a distance but they're a good idea if you're riding through gridlock. Bicyclists are not invisible and they can easily make themselves more visible by lane positioning than by employing any gaudy colour scheme.

A blinking white LED makes a fine day-time running light. Use it. Though a blinking light gets attention it's hard to judge its distance when it's dark.

Without having already survived a few years as a bicyclist or motorcyclist an ebike neophyte coming from car-culture would be best advised to take a safety course. Vehicular Cycling by John Forrester is available through most libraries. Check it out. It's a start. Most cities offer free courses during their "bike month"

Coming at it with a driver's perspective doesn't really work. Knowing the rules of the road as they pertain to bicycles would be a good place to start re-learning what you figured you knew. In most jurisdictions you're required to ride as far to the right as practicable even though you're entitled to a full lane. Give yourself as much room as you'd like drivers to give you and you'll find them passing more courteously. Bicyclist inferiority complex is well documented. When you learn that a bicycle really is the superior vehicle. . . you've got it.

'There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad gear' is an oft repeated axiom in bicycle and climbing circles. Dressing in layers is a habit for me.

As far as riding "environment" goes, it's always better if you live a region with lots of other cyclists about. Drivers become more accustomed to us though they don't expect us to be approaching at thirty MPH. Stay at bicycle speeds for greater safety. That will also increase your range while using a lighter battery pack.

Never have the proponents of speed ever proven that it's better for personal human conveyance.

 

[TylerDurden]

Never have the proponents of speed ever proven that it's better for personal human conveyance.

Pompeii and Phuket notwithstanding. Bikes would still rule tho.

 

[Zoot Katz]

Never have the proponents of speed ever proven that it's better for personal human conveyance.

Pompeii and Phuket notwithstanding. Bikes would still rule tho.

I was merely echoing what I'd read of Ivan Illich.

 

[dogman dan]

I think when Link says he avoids roads, he really means not on the road. I think I've seen Link talk about a RR track, but avoiding roads can mean alleys, bike paths, behind the box stores in the parking lots, and in my town the old standby, irrigation ditchbanks. The farms are gone but the ditches are still there.

 

[Mathurin]

My favourite is day-glo fluorescent hot-pink. People think I'm addled so give me plenty of room. It also holds the eye longer than orange, yellow or red. I have a winter and a summer outer layer of hot pink. Genuine day-glo colours work best in dawn, dusk and overcast conditions.

You have +20 manlyness over me, sir.

 

[dogman dan]

Guess we kinda lost Sid when we hijacked the thread. Dang, I keep getting this craving for corn on the cob!

 

[Sid]

Nah, still here, but now that you mention it corn on the cob sounds delcious. :|

 

[dogman dan]

This happens, good info posted, but little to do with the thread sometimes. Gotta learn to animate my atavar, that's cool as hell.