Controlling illegal motors?

[x88x]

If all hub motors are unable to produce more than a continuous 750 watts and they can’t use a low voltage to reduce the motors peak efficiency RPM; they would need to use an impossible gear reduction to have enough torque at the tire to be a good hill climber. Or do I not know what I am talking about….well that may be.

I think he just meant that they don't need to pull anywhere near the peak current to maintain top speed on level ground.

 

[Kingfish]

This doesn’t make any sense to me:
What would you define as “continuous”? :?

• Last summer I went continuously in excess of 800 Watts averaging roughly 27 mpg in Cruise Control Mode at 4000 feet elevation all day over somewhat level terrain on Day-1 of my Road Trip.
• On the last day of same trip when heading off to Sacramento I was pulling 1550 Watts continously up a steep grade for 8 miles, although I wasn’t going above 25 mph… more like 21 mpg. I stopped at the Pass to rest both me and the bike (pictures here). (Search for “Time? 302.7 mi, 60.2V, 156.3 Ah” to see the crest)
• When I am commuting, I am often WOT pulling up to 1550 Watts continously and going anywhere between 33 and 37 mph on a moderately level flat at near sea level if there is no wind. (Luke: I make awesome time on East Lake Sammamish which is a somewhat level beautiful lakeside drive between Redmond and Issaquah, regularly hitting the 35 mph speed limit posted by the roadside radar bandit). 8)

I could go faster but I have set the current limit so that my batteries will last longer.
Charged, and yet constrained, KF

 

[Bazaki]

Here in the Netherlands we have the European union law for E-Bikes.

250 watt max.
Pedal assist required
Above 25km/h no power from the motor allowed, so above the 25km/h the motor may not help you anymore.

The 1000 watt rule for some US states sounds good to me

 

[jawnn]

What I call a good hill climber is a motor that will give enough torque to drive 500lb up a mountain pass. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_meVnVkW1FWg/T ... go-one.jpg

sounds like your hub motor cools very fast or it has a high peak efficiencey rating.?

 

[Njay]

250 watt max.
Pedal assist required
Above 25km/h no power from the motor allowed, so above the 25km/h the motor may not help you anymore.

Actually, as far as I remember, it's even a bit worse: the motor should reduce power as the vehicle approaches 25Km/h (15.6 mph) and then stop outputting power at 25Km/h and beyond.

 

[dr_fruikenstein]

It doesn't matter what the motor rating is in this case, but what the controller's maximum output is. If the controller has a max output of 750 W, than the motor will be legal. Electric motors have a continuous rating, and can be used at less than the continuous rating. At the same time, a motor can be operated at many times the rated output for a reduced amount of time. For example, you can take the 1 hp electric motor, and run almost 3.75 Kw through it for a second, or two without hurting it. If someone, that knows nothing, were to look at the sticker on the motor, they would assume it's legal, while you were doing 5 hp launches at intersections when the light turns green.
So, be concerned with what the controller's max output is set at and the system, as a whole, will be legal.

 

[jawnn]

What I call a good hill climber is a motor that will give enough torque to drive 500lb up a mountain pass. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_meVnVkW1FWg/TM8f6Y4z0mI/AAAAAAAAATY/Yv7qyxe0m6o/s1600/go-one.jpg

I would like to see a comparison chart about hub motors abilities to produce torque/ amps.

Seems to me that If the cops wanted to test e bikes that all they would have to do is put a speedometer on a pair of rollers, then put the drive wheel on the rollers...ok not quit so easy.

 

[liveforphysics]

If the law was logical, I agree with this.

Its actually based on the rating of the output of the motor though.

Put 7.5kw from the controller to the motor while the motor is at a 10% efficient point, you get 750w out.

It doesn't matter what the motor rating is in this case, but what the controller's maximum output is. If the controller has a max output of 750 W, than the motor will be legal. Electric motors have a continuous rating, and can be used at less than the continuous rating. At the same time, a motor can be operated at many times the rated output for a reduced amount of time. For example, you can take the 1 hp electric motor, and run almost 3.75 Kw through it for a second, or two without hurting it. If someone, that knows nothing, were to look at the sticker on the motor, they would assume it's legal, while you were doing 5 hp launches at intersections when the light turns green.
So, be concerned with what the controller's max output is set at and the system, as a whole, will be legal.

 

[x88x]

Seems to me that If the cops wanted to test e bikes that all they would have to do is put a speedometer on a pair of rollers, then put the drive wheel on the rollers.

It's a little more complicated than that, but that's sorta of what a chassis dynamometer is (though they're used for testing BHP, not top speed). It would also depend on the local laws whether that would even be applicable. For example, in Maryland the law is similar to speed limits for licensed/tagged vehicles. That is, the max speed you're allowed to go is 30mph, but there's nothing saying that your vehicle's top speed has to be 30mph. Testing the power of a motor would be a much more complicated affair, which is why the suggestion to just put a sticker on the motor...give them an easy way out.

 

[Arlo1]

The burden of proof is on them.

i presume u have photo-radar where u liv?
or parking tickets?
where's does the burden of proof lay there?
guilty until proven innocent is becoming SOP with freshly minted laws.
(homeland security/guano-tanamo case in point).

Every photo-ticket I've been mailed I've simply ignored (as everyone should). They mail a few more threatening letters (saying they will revoke your drivers licence and/or send it to collections etc) after each month or so aimed around getting suckers to pay it, then they just drop it (because there is not a damn thing they can do).

Its a little different up here in canukastan they make you pay it when you renue your insurance!!!

 

[liveforphysics]

i presume u have photo-radar where u liv?
or parking tickets?
where's does the burden of proof lay there?
guilty until proven innocent is becoming SOP with freshly minted laws.
(homeland security/guano-tanamo case in point).

Every photo-ticket I've been mailed I've simply ignored (as everyone should). They mail a few more threatening letters (saying they will revoke your drivers licence and/or send it to collections etc) after each month or so aimed around getting suckers to pay it, then they just drop it (because there is not a damn thing they can do).

Its a little different up here in canukastan they make you pay it when you renue your insurance!!!

Ohh, right. I forgot some people have that. (just kidding, I have insurance)

 

[boostjuice]

The burden of proof is on them.

i presume u have photo-radar where u liv?
or parking tickets?
where's does the burden of proof lay there?
guilty until proven innocent is becoming SOP with freshly minted laws.
(homeland security/guano-tanamo case in point).

Every photo-ticket I've been mailed I've simply ignored (as everyone should). They mail a few more threatening letters (saying they will revoke your drivers licence and/or send it to collections etc) after each month or so aimed around getting suckers to pay it, then they just drop it (because there is not a damn thing they can do).

In Australia, fail to pay a speeding fine and;

- 1st reminder letter
- 2nd more threatening letter
- court summons ....ignore that and
- the boys in blue rock up at your doorstep

Why is the USA any different?

 

[liveforphysics]

i presume u have photo-radar where u liv?
or parking tickets?
where's does the burden of proof lay there?
guilty until proven innocent is becoming SOP with freshly minted laws.
(homeland security/guano-tanamo case in point).

Every photo-ticket I've been mailed I've simply ignored (as everyone should). They mail a few more threatening letters (saying they will revoke your drivers licence and/or send it to collections etc) after each month or so aimed around getting suckers to pay it, then they just drop it (because there is not a damn thing they can do).

In Australia, fail to pay a speeding fine and;

- 1st reminder letter
- 2nd more threatening letter
- court summons ....ignore that and
- the boys in blue rock up at your doorstep

Why is the USA any different?

They can never make a court summons for a ticket that they have no strong evidence of who was driving the car. (in the US at least)

 

[liveforphysics]

Seems to me that If the cops wanted to test e bikes that all they would have to do is put a speedometer on a pair of rollers, then put the drive wheel on the rollers.

So a cop is going to have a a dynomometer with them, and a power source to run your motor? Rollers is just going to give no-load speed (which the law states nothing about).
Then to prove your motor is over the "750w rated output" limit, he is going to need a power source to run your motor with (as they sure can't use your battery to do a continuous 750w output test). Then he is going to need to know how to setup the dyno for your bike (not always an easy task). And then, lets say they go nuts and make a lab just for testing ebikes, it's only going to prove you're not violating the law, as ALL hubmotors are going to melt at 750w continuous output in a legal speed range.


Unless they catch you speeding (then you're toast), but that has nothing to do with the motor being legal or not.

 

[boostjuice]

Every photo-ticket I've been mailed I've simply ignored (as everyone should). They mail a few more threatening letters (saying they will revoke your drivers licence and/or send it to collections etc) after each month or so aimed around getting suckers to pay it, then they just drop it (because there is not a damn thing they can do).

In Australia, fail to pay a speeding fine and;

- 1st reminder letter
- 2nd more threatening letter
- court summons ....ignore that and
- the boys in blue rock up at your doorstep

Why is the USA any different?

They can never make a court summons for a ticket that they have no strong evidence of who was driving the car. (in the US at least)

Ahh, there you go then. In Australia, the owner of the car is liable for all fines/demerit points unless they present a signed statement from another person supposedly driving the car at the time of the infringement. Another case of guilty until proven innocent...

 

[jawnn]

I was reading the new federal laws that bush signed into being… they say that any pedal powered- motor assisted vehicle that can be propelled over 20 mph by a motor is not a legal:

"Electric bicycle means a two or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less
than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph."

http://www.x-tremescooters.com/techdocs/adobe/e-bicycle-fed-regulation.pdf


I think every one should build a real motorcycle. Read ‘Build your own electric motorcycle’ by Carl Vogel

 

[beast775]

have you ever considered that every vehicle sold in northern hemishpere can go deadly speeds? most over 100 miles an hr whenever you feel like pushing your foot down.hard to justify worrying about watts,just get a 500w sticker and a 55 tooth sprocket.
we have a hill in my town that we ride pedal bikes over 50 miles an hr all the time,dangerous but non compliant.there are over 4,000,000 non compliant laws to begin with.use your brain you wont need any special tricks. :lol:

 

[jawnn]

Sorry beast, but I did't write the laws. But I would like to hear from a lawyer. :|

have you ever considered that every vehicle sold in northern hemishpere can go deadly speeds? most over 100 miles an hr whenever you feel like pushing your foot down.hard to justify worrying about watts,just get a 500w sticker and a 55 tooth sprocket.
we have a hill in my town that we ride pedal bikes over 50 miles an hr all the time,dangerous but non compliant.there are over 4,000,000 non compliant laws to begin with.use your brain you wont need any special tricks. :lol:

 

[liveforphysics]

I was reading the new federal laws that bush signed into being… they say that any pedal powered- motor assisted vehicle that can be propelled over 20 mph by a motor is not a legal:

"Electric bicycle means a two or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less
than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph."

http://www.x-tremescooters.com/techdocs/adobe/e-bicycle-fed-regulation.pdf


I think every one should build a real motorcycle. Read ‘Build your own electric motorcycle’ by Carl Vogel

This means definitively, ever hubmotor and every battery is legal for an electric bicycle. Just use the CA's speed-governor set at 19.5mph while you're in "on-road" mode.

 

[jawnn]

Thank you for contacting the Seattle Police Department (SPD) regarding your concern and interest in complying with traffic laws associated with electric-assisted bicycles.

Enforcement of RCW’s 46.04.169 (Electric-assisted bicycle) and 46.04.071 (Bicycle) by law enforcement officers is dependent on officers’ judgments and observations. Officers do write citations for moving violations, including for speed limit overage, to bicycle operators. However, officers must have ‘reasonable suspicion’ to conduct a traffic stop rather than solely pulling over an electric-assisted bicycle operator to verify the motor’s wattage does not exceed 1000 watts or to test its ability to exceed 20 mph. In the event of a serious collision involving an electric-assisted bicycle, it would then be properly tested and investigated for the aforementioned requirements.