Cost Comparison: Electric Bike Kit Build vs Turnkey EBikes

[bowriver]

This is my first post, and I am happy to see such great technical knowledge and passion for ebikes on this forum.

I have a customized Currie Izip, and I would like to either purchase or build something with more power and with a LiFePO4 Battery. I am looking for a mountain frame with front suspension and disc brakes. I would like to compare options that are under $1000 USD.

1: Build a 1000W 48V Rear wheel kit, with a 48V 10AH LiFePO4 Battery.

$395.00 Kit http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171150792928?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
$261.00 Battery http://www.ebay.ca/itm/281205422223?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
$250.00 Used Mountain bike frame with disc brakes
$50.00 Supplies / Misc

$906.00 total
This option gives the most power. There is some risk with making sure the components work correctly with the frame. There is also risk with customs/import charges to Canada. Could someone please help with an estimate for this build?

2: Turkey 500W 48V Lianmei Bike from China

Visit http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1082612482/Powerfull_Green_Electric_Mountain_Bikes_Top.html for specs.

$910.00 Bike + Shipping Cost
This bike gives a decent amount of power. Again I am unsure of customs import costs to Canada, if someone could comment on this it would be greatly appreciated.

3: Xtreme XB-300Li Electric mountain

$679.00 Bike Cost
$100.00 shipping to Canada
$100.00 Estimated import duty by Eric from Farbike.com (thanks)

$879.00 Total
This is the lowest cost turnkey option. It also has the lowest power in this comparison, however the battery and reviews for this bike are encouraging.

Please feel free to comment on the options and give any helpful input towards the topic of: Best Ebike solution under $1000 USD.

I would like to see consensus on an affordable and available ebike solution that allows people to reduce dependance on cars. Cycling is a sustainable and healthy activity that enriches our communities. For a truly car free experience an electric bike is often necessary to overcome hills while carrying groceries, or to commute long distances.

Looking forward to your input,

Clark at BowRiver

 

[wesnewell]

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. or just USA, but country as a minimum. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.

 

[bowriver]

Done, thanks

 

[wesnewell]

Might want to check these places out. Probably others in Canada too.
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php

 

[spinningmagnets]

For 90% of e-bike posters, my 'go to" suggestion is the em3ev MAC geared hubmotor, 10T @ 48V in a 26-inch wheel with fat tires. Fairly light and freewheels when just pedaling. Some gear-noise, but not bad. Conquers mild hills with ease. Roughly 26-MPH on flat land...lots of happy customers around here with that combination.

Direct-drive hub (DD) will be heavier, but also runs quieter. If quiet is of value to you, consider swapping-in a sine-wave controller to make the kit even slightly more quiet. If DD appeals to you, dogman has often recommended a low-speed Kv (high turn count) version using higher volts. I recommend adding a temp sensor to something like this. great for flat land, and for hills you should restrict the max amps...then slowly raise the amp-levels until you reach about 95C/200F inside the motor. At that heat level you can use that max-amps setting without having to constantly watch the temps.

If you like the take-off power of high-torque, a DD hub might require a LiPo battery to provide enough Current (C-rate).

There's a new mid-drive out right now, but it has been very popular rather quickly, so it might not be in stock at the moment. its the Bafang BBS02 750W. It is only "medium power", but climbs well. I recommend a strong chain and a 5-7 speed gear cluster on the rear wheel.

here is a thread on V-power batteries, Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV):
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53387

 

[Samd]

OP - Don't confuse price with cost. Are we comparing price, or cost?

Ebikes are just like cars - If you want a boring sedan with a simple dashboard go buy a fleet vehicle with plain paint and ride it in everyday conditions.
Need a ute, or an RV, or a pickup truck? Want to jump gutters, urban freeride, or commute weekdays and go offroad on weekends?
Ebikes can be built to suit those kinds of purposes. You might up with two or more to suit all different kinds of needs. I've got six very different ones, still for less than half the price and a tenth of the running cost of cars...

 

[bowriver]

Might want to check these places out. Probably others in Canada too.
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php

Thanks Wes, The GoldenMotor MagicPie 3 looks great. Their batteries however are overpriced. I think if I paired the MagicPie 3 with a Hkpower 48V 10Ah LiFePO4 and lockable rear pannier case I would have good setup at a reasonable price. I could use this setup with a Norco full suspension frame with disc brakes. Should be able to pull me up the steep hills where I live with 2 panniers full of groceries.

 

[wesnewell]

Just be sure the battery you buy is capable of delivering 35A. That will leave most 10ah lifepo4 lacking a lot, as most are 1-2C rated. If you aren't sure post a link to it, and ask if it will handle a 35A controller.

 

[bowriver]

Just be sure the battery you buy is capable of delivering 35A. That will leave most 10ah lifepo4 lacking a lot, as most are 1-2C rated. If you aren't sure post a link to it, and ask if it will handle a 35A controller.

I am looking at pairing this Vpower Battery: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/281204490039?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649

with this MagicPie 3 kit from Golden Motor. Is this a good match? Are the prices competitive?, Thanks again Wes

 

[footloose]

I am looking at pairing this Vpower Battery: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/281204490039?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649

Bowriver --

There are a couple red flags with that eBay listing for 10Ah battery.
The picture shows A123 cells (they are great cells, capable of high C-rate discharge).
The description states maximum of 20A discharge for the battery.
Based upon that, and upon the battery price, I'm about 100% convinced that the actual cells used aren't the A123 ones shown.

Secondly, about the seller. His FB looks good on the surface (100%), but take a closer look. He had some crappy FB last year, then stopped selling for a year, resumed just recently... so the old negs and neutrals don't show up unless you look closer.

Based on above, I'd stay away from the seller and his battery.

My unsolicited advice on battery to get... buy one of the 10Ah batteries from EM3ev, NCM chemistry, Samsung cells.
I have his 12.3Ah version. It reliably delivers 30A for me... so figure 2.5 C-rate.
10Ah version would give you 25A current, which is ample for most uses.

 

[dogman dan]

If you are reasonably handy with tools, and could increase the budget to closer to $1500, you can build your own, and end up with a very nice result.

The cheap ready to go bikes are based on exactly that, really cheap bikes. But with a slightly better budget, you can include 3-500 bucks for a decent bike.
It can make all the difference. One of mine is finally showing some real wear, after about 10,000 miles.

The cheap stuff can't go near that far, frames get soft and floppy, cheap shifters wear out, cranks bend easy, etc. Oddly, some cheap bikes can be crazy durable, like simple beach cruisers.

Yep, we are biased as hell towards build your own here on this forum. It seems the really good ready to go bikes are priced in the $3,000 ballpark, but I know you can build one just as good for $1500, if you find a good deal on a quality used bike.

 

[bowriver]

I am looking at pairing this Vpower Battery: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/281204490039?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649

Bowriver --

There are a couple red flags with that eBay listing for 10Ah battery.
The picture shows A123 cells (they are great cells, capable of high C-rate discharge).
The description states maximum of 20A discharge for the battery.
Based upon that, and upon the battery price, I'm about 100% convinced that the actual cells used aren't the A123 ones shown.

Secondly, about the seller. His FB looks good on the surface (100%), but take a closer look. He had some crappy FB last year, then stopped selling for a year, resumed just recently... so the old negs and neutrals don't show up unless you look closer.

Based on above, I'd stay away from the seller and his battery.

My unsolicited advice on battery to get... buy one of the 10Ah batteries from EM3ev, NCM chemistry, Samsung cells.
I have his 12.3Ah version. It reliably delivers 30A for me... so figure 2.5 C-rate.
10Ah version would give you 25A current, which is ample for most uses.

Thanks footloose,

I check the EM3ev site and I really like the 1000W pick n mix kit. I have seen many posts warning about the MagicPie3 internal controller failure in snow and rain - so I am reconsidering my kit choice. The Alex rims are a nice addition. To go car free I need to be able to carry 50lbs of groceries up steep hills, what is the motor speed on the kit that would be best for that?

 

[bowriver]

If you are reasonably handy with tools, and could increase the budget to closer to $1500, you can build your own, and end up with a very nice result.

The cheap ready to go bikes are based on exactly that, really cheap bikes. But with a slightly better budget, you can include 3-500 bucks for a decent bike.
It can make all the difference. One of mine is finally showing some real wear, after about 10,000 miles.

The cheap stuff can't go near that far, frames get soft and floppy, cheap shifters wear out, cranks bend easy, etc. Oddly, some cheap bikes can be crazy durable, like simple beach cruisers.

Yep, we are biased as hell towards build your own here on this forum. It seems the really good ready to go bikes are priced in the $3,000 ballpark, but I know you can build one just as good for $1500, if you find a good deal on a quality used bike.

Thanks dogman,

I am handy with tools and I have a small bike mechanic setup in my garage. I am a student so I really need to keep my budget as close to $1000 as possible. Can you recommend a good kit and battery to achieve this?

 

[dogman dan]

I would say the 10T can do that, if the hills are not above 8%. Question is more, can your bike frame handle that weight?

If you don't care much about speed, then the slower 12t motor on 48v will climb that hill loaded down the best. Much depends on how steep and how long that hill is. Chance are, the 10t on 48v, with a 25 or 30 amps controller is plenty.

Oh, now I see the new reply.

A good kit to get a tad cheaper, and able to climb well would be the direct drive kit from Em3ev. Get the very slowest rpm, to get up the hills nicer. And it will be nice in stop and go riding too. The lowest amps controller will be enough to climb pretty steep hills, and a lower amps controller will help you not need to spend as much on a high performance battery.

A cheap battery that is good is a real dilemma. Sunthing on ebay has developed a reasonably good track record for a decent lifepo4 pack. Get one in 15 ah size, in 48v if you can afford it. That should still leave a few bucks to get a decent used bike.

 

[footloose]

... I really like the 1000W pick n mix kit. I have seen many posts warning about the MagicPie3 internal controller failure in snow and rain - so I am reconsidering my kit choice. The Alex rims are a nice addition. To go car free I need to be able to carry 50lbs of groceries up steep hills, what is the motor speed on the kit that would be best for that?

Interesting, I have similar "needs" profile: bike that will haul groceries despite nasty gravity well here.
I live couple miles from the San Andreas fault, and hills here are extreme... steep uphills everywhere I look.
I purchased the 'pick n mix kit', 10T, 9FET controller, along with 12.3 Ah Samsung battery.
Used a mid-80's Specialized MTB frame, with wide tires, and good pannier rack.
Frankly, the bike has enough power to be scary, and makes easy work of these hills... It hauls a*s while also hauling groceries.
(Hills here are short but steep... don't know how it would perform on long, long grades.)
For everyday riding, and if on the flats, I often keep it in the lowest of 3 power settings and smell the roses.
Set it higher, and you need to pay attention.

 

[bowriver]

Thanks dogman and footloose! you're both helpful and awesome!

So my revised Build is either a Direct Drive DD500 or Pick n Mix Kit from EM3ev (still need to do some research - any final thoughts?), with a 48V 10AH LiFePO4, I will choose the Alex DM24 rim and put a Maxxis Ardent 2.4 Tire on for good traction

I am going to use a rear rack with this a Planet Bike locking case for battery and controller storage. Groceries will go in pannier bags.

I already have this Infinity Impact full suspension mountain bike, but would need to add disc brakes. Is it possible to find a rear rack compatible with this full suspension bike? Or should I sell this bike and get something already closer to what I need eg. disc brakes?

Thanks again, If it weren't for your help I would have ended up with a cheap shoddy bike. The EM3ev kits look solid, looking forward to riding on one!

 

[footloose]

Thanks dogman and footloose! you're both helpful and awesome!

So my revised Build is either a Direct Drive DD500 or Pick n Mix Kit from EM3ev (still need to do some research - any final thoughts?), with a 48V 10AH LiFePO4, I will choose the Alex DM24 rim and put a Maxxis Ardent 2.4 Tire on for good traction

Thank you, but here's the difference. Dogman has been involved with ebikes for years, so has some real depth of experience. I've been farting around with ebikes for a year, so mostly have marginally informed personal opinions :wink:

That said, I'll pitch in.

Your proposed bike isn't ideal.

If you'll really be loading serious groceries on the back in panniers (as I do), then not a good idea to put the batteries back there also. You's end up with a rear-heavy wheelie machine that wants to pop front wheel every time you tweak throttle.

For grocery hauler, batteries need to go in the frame triangle. On that bike... frame triangle is pretty constricted.
Get a different frame.
Suggestion: older mountain bike frame, with V-brakes.
V-brakes are, imho, ample.

Also, about Calgary topography. Calgary and Edmonton may be very different in reality, but my memory of Edmonton is... mostly flattish, with some steep hills climbing up out of the river valley. Same for Calgary? If Calgary and Edmonton more or less similar... geared hub would work fine. If Calgary has more extreme hills... DD hub may be better.

Finally, re LiFePO4. I hand-built a battery out of A123 cells for my first build. Love it, but not convinced that LiFePO4 is required in most cases.
Second build (the MAC build) I used an NCM chemistry battery.
My understanding is that... the two chemistries are ~equivalently safe; NCM power/weight ratio is a bit better; LiFePO4 longevity is a bit better.
So my conclusion was NCM rocks. By the time I wear out this NCM battery pack, likely that new and improved cells would make me lust after new battery anyway.
Message: I can't afford LiCo risk where I live, so I don't take advantage of their price/performance... but LiFePO4 and NCM both seem like "sensible" risk profiles. NCM is cheaper.

 

[cal3thousand]

(snipped)
Also, about Calgary topography. Calgary and Edmonton may be very different in reality, but my memory of Edmonton is... mostly flattish, with some steep hills climbing up out of the river valley. Same for Calgary? If Calgary and Edmonton more or less similar... geared hub would work fine. If Calgary has more extreme hills... DD hub may be better.

I think you might have that suggestion backwards?

Extreme hills would indicate that a geared hub with more torque would be more efficient. A speed wound DD hub would be OK if he didn't have extreme hills to climb.

hills / stop and go = geared or slow-wind DD
flats and long stretches = fast-wind DD

 

[footloose]

[
I think you might have that suggestion backwards?

Cal3K -- My thought process was unclear at best.
Completely agree... if steep hills, geared is the answer.
If long hills... slow-wind direct may be better answer.
Guess I was wondering... is Calgary close enough to the Rockies that long, long, steep gradients are involved?
I know Edmonton is a bit farther east, in the prairies... steepest incline there is climbing up out of river valley, otherwise kind of flat. (Picked geared hub.)
Guy in Calgary might actually be dealing with more opportunities to ride in mountains? (DD could be answer?)

Thanks for pointing out my muddled explanation!

 

[bowriver]

The steepest hill I would ever be climbing while in the city is about 20% grade. When I take the bike on trips to Banff some trails would have steep 25% or higher grades. For most of my daily riding I will be looking at 5% - 15% grades. I live in Parkdale NW in the Bow River valley so most of the hills have only a short steep incline section then flatten out.

 

[footloose]

All of those fall into what I'd call "steep".

My thought:

If they aren't brutally long: MAC geared motor.

If they are brutally long: slowest wind DD.

(Brutally long = ... more than a couple kilometers steady uphill.)

 

[cal3thousand]

All of those fall into what I'd call "steep".

My thought:

If they aren't brutally long: MAC geared motor.

If they are brutally long: slowest wind DD.

(Brutally long = ... more than a couple kilometers steady uphill.)

Those are definitely steep, and you brought up a VERY important point: How long is that climb? I'm sure I could do a 45 degree incline for a few feet at least

 

[bowriver]

My house is in this valley. The grocery store I go to is near the condo towers in the upper right of the photo. U of C is closer to where the photographer is standing. Both are steep grades but the grocery trip side (south side) is steeper. The hills only have short steep sections of 300m or less. Based on your info I think a geared hub motor would be best.

 

[bowriver]

So now it is a question of 10T or 12T. What would my flat land speed be with the 12T vs 10T ? Also wondering your opinion of half twist vs full twist throttle? If I do choose to use my Infinity full suspension bike is it possible to mount a rear rack (non seat post rack)?

 

[footloose]

10T.

With 10T, my bike with 50V and 26" wheels will top out slightly above 30mph.
30 mph is fast.
Mostly ride it around 15-20.
But sometimes... nice to open it up and fly.
And 10T will give you ample grunt for climbing those hills.

I like half twist throttle.

Specific bike rack mount? Don't know. Almost anything is possible with enough creativity :wink: