cost of operating!

[mvly]

WOW I just realized it's not much cheaper to run my ebike than my car assuming you already own the car and the ebike... well you guys make your own decision but here is my math:

Civic Si Sedan 08:
mpg on highway: ~ 30
mpg on city ~ 26 (I drive very conservatively)

I spend most of my time on the highway so for simplicity say 30mpg.
1 gallon of premium gas here in California ~ $4.40. It is higher, but to be conservative on the calculation, lets say $4.40
In the 10.8K, I would have used 360 gallons, I would have done 1 cheap oil change and 1 expensive oil change on my car, so my guess is $300 bucks.

total cost: 360*$4.4 + $300 = $1884
so miles/dollar = 10.8K/1884 ~ 5.74miles/dollar

My ebike:
nano tech battery: ~$110*8 stick to form 74V20Ah Lipo battery + shipping ~ $1000 for simplicity. Yes I need to factor in charging setup, but lets keep it simple

It is suppose to get 300 cycles, but since I am babying it, i.e. 4.1V-3.6V and roughly 2.5C max current draw, I say it is good for 600 cycles. Again conservative, but it makes calculation easier.

So far I have 1000Ah and 1800miles and ~ 100 cycles. So I have roughly 10.8K on this battery before I should replace.

My bike, I would have spent $150 on tires/flats and brake pads and some lubricant in that 10.8K miles is my best guess.

(10.8K)/$1150 = 9.4miles/dollar
But lets make it 9 miles/dollar since i have to factor in electricity cost.


So CONCLUSION: it's not that good. We really need cheaper batteries to make it really worth while. (i.e 30K for my battery)

So yes still cheaper, but still just looking at operating cost, it's not much. The only upside is relatively clean, and almost guilty free transportation and stress relieving because I don't have to deal with traffic.

I am sure there are people out there with better numbers than I do, i.e. LiFePO4 with higher cycle counts, or cheaper motors, etc. But keep in mind, I would not ride anything not capable of 50mph. : )

 

[TylerDurden]

I see it as you are getting paid $700 a year to enjoy your commute. :lol:

 

[DAND214]

No insurance, registration and the local sticker? Did you figure that in?

Or did I miss that?

Dan

 

[Juiced Riders]

You depreciated the battery, but forgot to depreciate the car.
The car loses surprising amount of value every day and every mile.

Kelley Blue Book
Good Condition
2008 Honda Civic Si Sedan 4D

30,000 mi = $17,505
40,000 mi = $16,805 ($700 for 10,000 mi)
50,000 mi = $16,080 ($725 for 10,000 mi)
60,000 mi = $15,230 ($850 for 10,000 mi)

So even if you were rolling downhill in your car for 10K, the depreciation per mile is alone closing in on the cost of the pack.

So add about 700 bucks to your original $1,884
$700 + $1,884 = $2,584
10,800mi / $2,584 = 4.17 mi/dollar (or about 24 cents a mile)

If you include insurance and registration, at least $350
10,800mi / ($2,584 + $350) = 3.68 mi/dollar (or 27 cents a mile)

So a Quarter jumps out of your pocket for every mile you go in a car and a Dime jumps out of your pocket for every mile you go on e-bike (unless you pedal more)

Also the cycle lifespan figure is typically when he pack reaches 80% original capacity. So there is plenty of riding to do especially with such a large pack.

 

[neptronix]

Your battery cost is very high and your cycle life is very low. Color me shocked that the economics look poor

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25832

Here is a related thread. Read my calculated cost of the battery replacement cost per mile.

Do the math on a battery that costs only $400/wHr shipped and lasts for 1500-2000 cycles. You'll see a completely different picture. ( yes, i am talking about cheaper lifepo4 )

It would be rather expensive to operate a car if you used 112 octane fuel in it as well, wouldn't it?
Your nanotechs are that 112 octane fuel

 

[mvly]

Yeah I guess I forgot the insurance part.

As for the depreciation value, I don't factor that in because I will drive that car until it break. I have no intention to resell the bike or the car so it should not be included.

But yeah insurance is around 350 + 150 for registration for the year, 500 more. But i figured I keep the those anyways regardless if I use it or not.


10.8K/2384 ~ 4.53mile/dollar. So roughly twice even with insurance and registration.

I guess there might be other stuff I am missing. But i think twice is a pretty good estimate. LOL

 

[mvly]

Your battery cost is very high and your cycle life is very low. Color me shocked that the economics look poor

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25832

Here is a related thread. Read my calculated cost of the battery replacement cost per mile.

Do the math on a battery that costs only $400/wHr shipped and lasts for 1500-2000 cycles. You'll see a completely different picture. ( yes, i am talking about cheaper lifepo4 )

It would be rather expensive to operate a car if you used 112 octane fuel in it as well, wouldn't it?
Your nanotechs are that 112 octane fuel

well keep in mind unless i get legit A123 LiFePO4 cells, this is not possible. I need high voltage and relatively low capacity (20Ah). And I drive my motor up to 60Amps averaging around 30-40Amps. I doubt LiFePO4 would like that. Also keep in mind the weight. 24s20Ah LiFePO4 A123 cells will be heavy compared to my nanotech.

 

[neptronix]

An ebike doesn't have a timing belt, a brake job only costs you $50 ( at most, that includes pads on both sides and service cost at a local bike shop! ), it never needs its oil changed, it never needs it's fluids flushed, new tires cost about $30 each instead of $100-$200 each x 4. The only wear and tear part is the battery, um.. should i go on? :lol:

Best of all, you are not going to make $300-$600 payments for 5 years on your ebike..
And with the right batteries, it is like paying 30-50 cents a gallon for gas..

You can run and tell that, homeboy!

 

[neptronix]

well keep in mind unless i get legit A123 LiFePO4 cells, this is not possible. I need high voltage and relatively low capacity (20Ah). And I drive my motor up to 60Amps averaging around 30-40Amps. I doubt LiFePO4 would like that. Also keep in mind the weight. 24s20Ah LiFePO4 A123 cells will be heavy compared to my nanotech.

Well you could actually go with a cargo bike and thundersky/sinopoly/calb/gbs cells. Only 100wHr/KG but it won't matter at all, and they will be dirt cheap, like $360/KW-HR, basically the price of Turnigy hardcase packs, except you you know, they last 5-10x times as long

Some 40ah lifepo4 cells would do the job pretty well.

Non-nanotech would also save you a hell of a lot of money. My magic pie bike was much like yours and i only used 10AH of 20C cells to get that kinda output. Nanotech is 33%-50% more expensive.

Dow Kokam cells at $1000/KW-HR might actually be better too due to their multi thousand cycle life.

Nanotech or other similarly high priced, high C rate RC Lipo is probably one of the worst deals out there for $ per cycle life. Even the economics of 20C cells are really bad.

 

[StudEbiker]

I think your calculations heavily favor the automobile, but either way. The real savings comes when you sell the car and only ride your e-bike. I did that a year ago and wish I did it sooner. That's when not only is it (even by your own estimations) almost half as cheap per mile to operate, but you get rid of insurance, registration, the occasional ticket, and the "extra" driving you do in a car (because you can) which also drives the costs up.

I always found that if I drove my car to work, I would find all these little errands I thought I needed to run, that now just aren't that important.

The savings has been substantial. I honestly don't know if I will ever own a car again. I am really looking at a velomobile type setup. If I want to drive somewhere out of town, I will rent a car. It will be much cheaper than maintaining one year round.

 

[wesnewell]

Bought a new car in Nov. of 2009 for $18,000. So far it has ~3000 miles on it and its depreciated by over $5000. So that's $1.50 per mile. I hate insurance, but I have to have liability and that cost $500 a year, so that's another 50 cents per mile just for insurance., So I'm up to $2 per mile. And then there's $40 a year for inspection, plus gas, but it's minor compared to other expenses, so I'll just say it cost me $2 per mile to drive my car. My bike gets the equivalent of ~1000mpg with gas at $4 a gal., and cost about $700 total. No insurance cost. No inspection cost. No gas cost. Let's say $200 a year depreciation. I ride my bike 3650 miles per year. Now these are the real numbers. So car=$2 per mile. Bike=$0.05 per mile. Now if I only counted the gas cost of $3 a gallon for the car and not the real expenses, that would still be $0.12 per mile for the car. And gas is only a minor portion of the cost of operating a car.

 

[amigafan2003]

Try it in the UK with a 2.9l V6 Cosworth averaging 18mpg on the commute to work (18.5 mile round trip) with petrol @ $9.40 a gallon

 

[Thud]

And I drive my motor up to 60Amps averaging around 30-40Amps.

for a fair compairison you need to operate your car in the same "high power" levels you demand from your bicycle. your pushing your bike to 90+ % of its potential. your pushing your auto only to 30% of its potential.

 

[dogman dan]

Wesenwells calculations are spot on. Nothing costs like an expensive thing that isn't used much. Buck a mile or more is not uncommon for a vehicle driven less than 10,000 miles a year. But for many in the USA, going completely carless can be pretty hard to do. However, though the car is book depreciating now regardless of mileage, if the car is kept for long enough, it will start to get less expensive per mile by about 10 years. At that rate of use, he'll not need a timing belt or a water pump till about 25 years down the road. That will mean about 15 yeas of the car costing little more than the cost of insurance, a few sets of tires, and an oil change every other year. Not bad on the long haul, but horrible now of course.

A more typical cost per mile on a car that retails under 20 thou is about 40-50 cents per mile for the first 100,000 miles. Trucks and larger Suv's run about 75 cents to a buck. My ebike costs about 15 cents per mile, using a more ecomomical lifepo4 battery.

So my ebike commute of 15 miles was putting about 12 bucks a day in my pocket. Only 6 bucks an hour to ride a bike, but better than nothing.

 

[Lessss]

Car (I asked 4 car owners and averaged costs)
-
Car, gas, oil, spark plugs, filters, insurance, inspection etc
$15000 purchase 10 yr life, 50g/w, maint say 100/yr, ins 1000, insp 100
1500+2600+100+1000+100=yearly cost $5300 /2 = 2650 for half a year


Taxi
$7-$12 a trip call it $10 x2x5 (just back and forth to work)
100x26=2600 for half a year

Bus
$2.50 per trip x2 a day x5 (just back and forth to work)
25 a week x 26weeks =$1300 for half a year


ebike
unrealistic ebike new one every 3 years 3000(9k over 10 yrs), new expensive lithium battery every 2 years 2000(10K over 10 years), charging costs 100 per year = 9k+10k+1k=20k for 10 yrs = 2k a year = 1000 for six months

realistic cost 2000 for new bike every 5 years(4k over 10), 2 lithium batteries over 10 yrs 2.5k, 10 years of charging 1000= 7.5k/10= 750 so 375 for 6 months

Warning these cost do not factor in ebike addiction.