Could Electric Bikes Be Killing Off America’s Car Addiction?

[LockH]

^^ Watt HE says. Plus, I vote for electric bikes as travels seen as entertainment.

 

[DRMousseau]

I try to look at things that persist through history as a way to figure out those things that don't (and won't) change significantly.

Guess I tend to do much the same, and I also look and relate history to "cause and effect" in much the same way.
I found the article data to be interesting and revealing of much more than noted, thanks to the varied breakdown of respondent categories.

Most notable was cost as a barrier to ownership!!! Especially the significant difference between those <60ys, and those >60,... of which I belong, and of which many are likely retired to fixed incomes. I find it somewhat revealing of the hidden factor of INCOME as related to cost. That hidden "income" factor is also revealed elsewhere, like the rapid increase in purchases of China and other quickly developing nations. And that "income" is likely the greatest factor in reducing America's car addiction, as other living costs are consuming greater chunks of income today than a half century ago when income was relatively high in comparison to today. Most actually "OWNED" a car then, or it was briefly financed for 2-3yrs before ownership. Unlike today, where few can actually afford to even buy a car outside of long-term financing and we've seen a huge new developing manner of "leasing" and "renting" to keep costs lower relative to income! These cost/income differences, relative to age, also show up in the barriers of "maintenance expense", where "older folks" have more time and likely the lost skills that provide an advantage over a majority of todays working folks under 60yrs. Those maintenance costs ALSO take a big chunk from ALL car owners today, further reducing ownership in favor of lease/rentals,... even among those >60yrs.

I haven't owned a car/truck/motorcycle for 4-5yrs now,.... well, other than my 30yr old 34' "rolling upstairs apartment" (motorhome), in which I live in year around! Not as glorious as it might seem, but a vast change in lifestyle that's been nice for me. Of course it's driven much less than those folks whose retirement income is grossly greater than mine,.... about 3000-4000mi annually. But it IS owned and economically maintained within my meager budget. Surprisingly, my e-bike cost nearly HALF of my motorhome purchase! And it's really nothing special,... but it's my main transportation for all I need, except travels. And the e-bikes maintenance/expense is certainly much less than the motorhome and/or other transportation choices.

Cost as a barrier of purchase? Nope,... limited income is. And I think it's limiting to America's "car addiction" too. And if EV's are comparable in price, low income will likely inhibit their growth, in spite of reduced expenses of maintenance and operation costs.

 

[vagosofron]

An electric car is not much greener than a combustion car. Unless it is half the weight and size, it is not a significative improvement.

I think it's a pretty significant improvement in terms of energy and resource usage, but it's not a complete solution - just another step along the path to "better."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't petrol necessary for electricity production? I mean, EVs are not 100% green if you look at the big picture. Despite that, I'm building my own though...

Here in Costa Rica last year's electric production reached almost 100% from renewable sources...geothermal, wind, solar, and mostly hydro. The gas turbine backup system gets fired up only very rarely. Where electricity is produced by burning something the process is significantly more efficient and clean than burning it in a car, but you're correct in that nothing is 100% green, not even walking or pedaling a bike since powered by food is one of the most inefficient, costly, and pollution creating power source. Ebikes OTOH are the most efficient form of land transportation devised by man, and whether I charge mine from a wall socket or using my solar panels, they're about as green as it gets. Plus until we can move around by personal multi-rotor aircraft, they're the most fun and most time efficient and economical means of transport.

I totally agree on that!

 

[John and Cecil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't petrol necessary for electricity production? I mean, EVs are not 100% green if you look at the big picture. Despite that, I'm building my own though...

Why not use your own solar panels to charge your battery? Just one 4' x 2' solar panel can easily charge a 48v 20ah battery in a day (generates up to 200w per hour). Get a few panels and you can power your home lighting and maybe even the movie projector too

Even if the power was not 100% green we are now averaging over 1000 miles per gallon (based on electricity/gas cost)!

 

[vagosofron]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't petrol necessary for electricity production? I mean, EVs are not 100% green if you look at the big picture. Despite that, I'm building my own though...

Why not use your own solar panels to charge your battery? Just one 4' x 2' solar panel can easily charge a 48v 20ah battery in a day (generates up to 200w per hour). Get a few panels and you can power your home lighting and maybe even the movie projector too

Even if the power was not 100% green we are now averaging over 1000 miles per gallon (based on electricity/gas cost)!

I wish everyone thought that way...

 

[LockH]

Most notable was cost as a barrier to ownership!!! Especially the significant difference between those <60ys, and those >60,...

Hehe... City kid here (having circled the sun near 65 times...) Locally, with a thing "good credit rating" can purchase one new electric bike, including warranty, where monthly loan payments are about HALF of a monthly pass for pubic transit services. And "fuel" to "refill" is widely available "for free" as 120VAC electrical outlets... EVerywhere...

So V.Sorry to read that such "cheap" transportation (?) is a "barrier" to some.

 

[billvon]

Why not use your own solar panels to charge your battery? Just one 4' x 2' solar panel can easily charge a 48v 20ah battery in a day (generates up to 200w per hour). Get a few panels and you can power your home lighting and maybe even the movie projector too

That's what we do. Although usually to be good "grid citizens" we generate power during the day (when the grid needs it) and charge at midnight (when the grid has surplus.)

When I charge at work it's pretty close to direct charging - we have a 500kW solar array on the parking garage, and EV charging spots (mostly outlets) in the garage.

 

[John and Cecil]

I was considering cutting the cord to the power company completely. I am not even sure if they allow you to upload power to the grid in Italy. I was going to modify the house. All lighting replaced with high efficiency cobs running way under spec for 250 lumens per watt. No dishwasher, small efficient washing machine, movie projector, laptop pc, small microwave, gas stove/oven, etc. I figure maybe 4x 52v 20ah batteries and 4 panels to charge them. On rainy days use the extra power for movies and washing clothes, on sunny days use more power for the bike.

 

[billvon]

I was considering cutting the cord to the power company completely. I am not even sure if they allow you to upload power to the grid in Italy.

For a much lower cost (and lower hassle) way to do that consider a "net zero export" grid tie system. It is a system that will never export power to the grid - but will power your home 100% when the sun is available to do so. By moving all your loads to daytime (washing clothing, cooking, AC etc) you pay almost nothing for power.

Batteries sound great, but they end up as the #1 cost in any system. To use lead acid for full time power you have to cycle them fairly hard, so you either use a few batteries and replace them once a year or use a lot of batteries and replace them every five years. And lead acid batteries generate hydrogen, and need water, and you end up with little acid holes in all your clothing . . . .

Li-ion or LiFePO4 are much better of course but also much more pricey.

Over the long term, the grid is a much cheaper "battery" than a battery.

 

[DRMousseau]

So V.Sorry to read that such "cheap" transportation (?) is a "barrier" to some.

Some??? Seemed pretty significant to 70-80% of the large number of respondents. I didn't choose e-power over ICE because it was "cheap" (it wasn't!), my choice was purely for dependability, repair and maintenance savings, of which most was a greater concern to those under 60yrs of age. Even power savings of e-bikes were marginal over ice,... and that's with an inefficient mini 48cc 2-stroke!!! Mileage/range are concerning factors to some, but I can accept some limitation here, big deal. The legalities of e-power over ICE were also factors of my concern, as was the view of "public opinion", which is none too great regarding bicycles in general anyways!

"Cheap" IS important,... stagnant, falling and limited income, is what has created a demand for lower cost imports to fill!!! LoL!!! Either Ice or electric,... your choice! And while "financing" of various sorts is available to those of "good credit rating",.... I'm thinking 70-80% don't find that a viable option! This opens A NEW market in e-bike rentals and leases,... not ownership either.

Now,...

I have various redundant power options in my "rolling upstairs apartment",... 4000W on-board generator, 100A chassis alternator, AC shore-line (used most), and DC battery banks and chargers/converters and inverters. I've considered solar,.... but jus not an economical option for me. "WHAT???" you say!!! Well, unless I choose to create a hot-box of my home and park in the open sunshine!!! I'm only on the open road for 3000mi a year, and mostly during cooler hours of inefficient sunshine. Otherwise I prefer to park my home in the shade. I do have air-conditioning,... it's been run for maybe an hour or so for all the time I've lived in here,... and mostly for short systems checks in keeping it operational,... WAY too much power need otherwise!
Wind has also been considered,... but most worthwhile sets require a minimum breeze that exceeds the comforts of my canopy and shade. This thing rocks plenty on breezy days!!!

So, much of my "independent" power comes from ICE,... either the genny or the main engine alternator while on the road. And mostly, from a shoreline to an outlet,.... hehe, ya,... most everywhere, "free" at that,... but my needs are minimal. While I carry 100lb of propane onboard, and 20lb backups,.... it's devoted to heat, either warmth or hot-water when necessary, and a little stove cooking. Most cooking is electric, via convection/microwave.

Again, "Americas car addiction", is more about REAL income and affordability. Has been ever since Henry Ford gave us a great option,... "..in any color as long as it's black!"

 

[craneplaneguy]

After previously spending 28 years off grid, I am super happy to be grid tied. My local utility IS my battery, it's of infinite size, 100% efficient (no self discharge, and no conversion losses), doesn't take up any room, needs no maintenance, and never sulfates!

 

[DRMousseau]

Batteries sound great, but they end up as the #1 cost in any system. To use lead acid for full time power you have to cycle them fairly hard, so you either use a few batteries and replace them once a year or use a lot of batteries and replace them every five years. And lead acid batteries generate hydrogen, and need water, and you end up with little acid holes in all your clothing . . . .

Li-ion or LiFePO4 are much better of course but also much more pricey.

Over the long term, the grid is a much cheaper "battery" than a battery.

Even the basic flooded wet-cell batteries have benefited from recent technologies, and are far better than in their former basis of the not so distant past. Of course glass-mats and gels can hardly be called an advancement given their "disposable" nature of a relatively short life due to consumers need for "maintenance-free". They ARE safer in applications needing such safety against constant upright use. Flooded lead/acid DO require some personal maintenance and attention to last longer the gels and mats, and I expect fully 7yrs+ of regular use from my banks. Of course it helps to have good charging and monitoring technology that was unavailable to me years ago.

Lithium an advantage??? Ya,... it is. Much lighter, more compact, somewhat safer in application, greater power density and efficiency,... and of course costly. Given life expectancy and application purpose,.... I'll stick with flooded cell batteries for my home, and lithium for my e-bike and other things. Been fading away my use of alkaline and other disposables,... not so much for cost, but for budget!

Of course I Iuv the grid, but my systems are such that I hardly notice when the grids down due to local weather or whatever. I actually have installed special visual indicators to display loss of grid power, otherwise I'd hardly noticed. Seems odd that I'd be the only one in dark local neighborhoods with lights and power at such times. Nice having backups.

 

[John and Cecil]

I understand the grid may be cheaper than an off grid solution, however cost is not my reasoning. I want to cut the cord to as much as possible (oil, electric, pharma, etc). I don't care if it costs triple. The world ecosystem is collapsing and I do not want to be a part of it anymore. When I look into the mirror I want to see a man that is not causing the destruction of the planet.

 

[billvon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't petrol necessary for electricity production?

Petrol as in oil? Not here. The only place the US uses oil for electrical power to any degree is Hawaii because that's the only fuel we can ship there.

Petrol as in any fossil fuel? Depends where you are. Here in San Diego, for example, we are 35% natural gas, 4% coal, and the rest are non-fossil sources. 26% comes from renewables (solar, wind) 10% comes from large hydro and 9% comes from nuclear.

I mean, EVs are not 100% green if you look at the big picture.

Right - they are just a lot greener than IC cars. And as time goes on, and more of the grid switches to renewables, they will get even greener.

 

[billvon]

Even the basic flooded wet-cell batteries have benefited from recent technologies, and are far better than in their former basis of the not so distant past. Of course glass-mats and gels can hardly be called an advancement given their "disposable" nature of a relatively short life due to consumers need for "maintenance-free". They ARE safer in applications needing such safety against constant upright use. Flooded lead/acid DO require some personal maintenance and attention to last longer the gels and mats, and I expect fully 7yrs+ of regular use from my banks.

If you get very good batteries (Rolls and the like) AND you treat them well AND you have a lot of experience in the care and feeding of lead-acids that's a reasonable expectation

Of course it helps to have good charging and monitoring technology that was unavailable to me years ago.

But for lead acid nothing has really changed. Still three phase charging, still equalize charging for balancing, same temperature compensation that has been around for decades. One of the reasons lead-acid is fairly mature is that they were the mainstay of telecom and data center backup systems since the 1930s - so people have a lot of experience with what works and what doesn't.

The _monitoring_ has gotten better (actually cheaper and easier rather than better; look at any WWII submarine for proof of this) but that doesn't really affect battery life the way an active balancer does for lithium ion.

Lithium an advantage??? Ya,... it is. Much lighter, more compact, somewhat safer in application, greater power density and efficiency,... and of course costly. Given life expectancy and application purpose,.... I'll stick with flooded cell batteries for my home, and lithium for my e-bike and other things. Been fading away my use of alkaline and other disposables,... not so much for cost, but for budget!

Yep, lead acids are definitely cheaper in terms of up front cost.

Of course I Iuv the grid, but my systems are such that I hardly notice when the grids down due to local weather or whatever. I actually have installed special visual indicators to display loss of grid power, otherwise I'd hardly noticed. Seems odd that I'd be the only one in dark local neighborhoods with lights and power at such times. Nice having backups.

Well, for backup you really can't beat a generator. But if an off-grid system works for you, great.

 

[wturber]

Most notable was cost as a barrier to ownership!!!

The problem with comparing ownership costs is that what you get is so much different. When I was a kid, having 100,000 miles on a car was a big deal. Today that is ordinary. Some warranties are that long. Air conditioning was rare and unusual as were many other features we take for granted today. Yes, cars today are relatively more expensive. But they do more and last longer.

As for being able to afford a car ... it isn't so hard. Simply buy used cars. I've never owned a new car. I haven't made a car payment since I think 1982. Most people spend far more on cars than is necessary and have all kinds of interesting reasons for doing so.

One thing I like about my ebike is that it means fewer miles on my car. So it should last even longer and require less maintenance. About the only thing I'd really save by getting rid of my car completely would be the insurance. As it is, it is nice to be able to shift to less car or more car use to suit my current situation.

 

[wturber]

Why not use your own solar panels to charge your battery? Just one 4' x 2' solar panel can easily charge a 48v 20ah battery in a day (generates up to 200w per hour). Get a few panels and you can power your home lighting and maybe even the movie projector too

Why not? Because the e-bike uses so little power that it doesn't make financial sense. I burn so much less fuel by virtue of the light weight and low speed that it doesn't make sense to spend money to save just a tiny bit more. I forget the exact numbers, but my daily commute consumes about 10 cents worth of power for my 32 mile round-trip commute. If I rode every day all year, my total energy costs would be $25 and I would save about $800 on gas costs. It would take me well over ten years just to recoup the costs of the storage batteries needed for my e-bike solar charger. Not burning all the gas to move a large car around to begin with is what really matters if the goal is to burn less fuel.

 

[LockH]

So V.Sorry to read that such "cheap" transportation (?) is a "barrier" to some.

Some??? Seemed pretty significant to 70-80% of the large number of respondents.

Maybe look at it as loading the costs of years of purchasing gasoline/diseasal fossil fuels "up front" into the purchase price of that new vehicle. Any better? :wink:

 

[John and Cecil]

financial sense

That term is where we differ in opinion. I would rather spend more and take the money away from the big corporations. The corporations are the problem, and they funnel money to the politicians to allow them to abuse the planet. A good example would be big pharma. Republican senators received 92k on average in 2016 from big pharma, and the average dem senator received 61k. There are drugs in our drinking water and yet the water is not tested for them (only by the AP). The system is completely broken.

 

[John in CR]

financial sense

That term is where we differ in opinion. I would rather spend more and take the money away from the big corporations. The corporations are the problem, and they funnel money to the politicians to allow them to abuse the planet. A good example would be big pharma. Republican senators received 92k on average in 2016 from big pharma, and the average dem senator received 61k. There are drugs in our drinking water and yet the water is not tested for them (only by the AP). The system is completely broken.

I go even further, everything BIG is the problem, whether it's big oil, big government, big pharma, big utilities, big banks, big insurance, big healthcare, military-industrial complex, etc. With near zero exceptions they operate in a morally corrupt manner and take actions contrary to the common good. With the laws allowing them to collude more and more each year they've become like one evil entity I refer to as BIG. BIG is the world's biggest problem, and I'm with you in that I'll pay extra to avoid giving money to BIG.

 

[wturber]

financial sense

That term is where we differ in opinion. I would rather spend more and take the money away from the big corporations. The corporations are the problem, and they funnel money to the politicians to allow them to abuse the planet. A good example would be big pharma. Republican senators received 92k on average in 2016 from big pharma, and the average dem senator received 61k. There are drugs in our drinking water and yet the water is not tested for them (only by the AP). The system is completely broken.

Who do you think is pushing solar? Big corporations and government.

The fact that there is only $25 to save is a signal to put your effort elsewhere if your goal is to reduce fossil fuel use. That is true regardless of your particular goal/motivation.

 

[John and Cecil]

I go even further, everything BIG is the problem, whether it's big oil, big government, big pharma, big utilities, big banks, big insurance, big healthcare, military-industrial complex, etc. With near zero exceptions they operate in a morally corrupt manner and take actions contrary to the common good. With the laws allowing them to collude more and more each year they've become like one evil entity I refer to as BIG. BIG is the world's biggest problem, and I'm with you in that I'll pay extra to avoid giving money to BIG.

Complete agreement!!!

 

[LockH]

In theory, while the automotive industry built bigger and bigger vehicles (to fit larger and larger operators and passengers...) more folks may be able to fit ON a vehicle rather than IN a vehicle. Maybe...

 

[MadRhino]

You are green when all you need is close by, and you are using the most simple means to get it.

Our society evolved to the point of the absurd. People and goods are traveling so much mileage, that we consume more earth resources in transportation than the resources that we transport.

 

[LockH]

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Thoughts From the NY International Auto Show
("The end of the appeal of owning things - maybe."):
https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/technology-and-learning/thoughts-ny-international-auto-show

Starts:

This weekend my wife and I took our college-age daughters to the New York International Auto Show. In truth, we had not planned to attend the giant car extravaganza held annually at the Javits Center. We had planned a weekend in Manhattan as a spring break getaway, and ended up at the car show largely by happenstance.

There is some degree of irony in my attendance at any auto show. Our oldest drove away with our second car at the start of her sophomore year. My wife drives our family (and only) car to work. Most days, I don’t drive anything bigger than an electric bicycle.

Includes:

Cars are expensive and dangerous. Nowhere at the NY International Auto Show was there any mention of the approximately 40,000 U.S. vehicle deaths in 2017.

Many of us don’t want cars, but transportation.

8) Injuries of course MUCH higher. (Obesity much?)