Crank Foward DIY project Frame Dimensions

LewTwo

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I have been considering building a bamboo frame with a crank forward configuration similar to an Electra Townie. However I needed a starting point and Electra does not make ANY dimensions available. So I downloaded the highest resolution picture I could find on their web site. Then I inserted it into a CAD file and rescaled it according to the wheel size. I picked several points that I was interested in and placed a number of dimensions on the drawing. I have attached copies of the PDF and DWG file in case anyone else is interested in this information.
Townie dimensions Small.jpg
 

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There are several benefits to the Townie frame.

Flat rear drop outs easily accept water-jetted / laser-cut torque plates, for a rear hub system.

The fronts of the chain stays are far enough back from the BB that you can use a large 52T-60T chainring if you want (many frames don't allow this).

Accepts all the popular mid drives.

1-1/8th head tube accepts a wide variety of suspension forks.

Fairly low seat tube top, which allows a suspension seat post (Thudbuster / Suntour NCX), without the seat ending up too high. (KHS Manhattan Smoothie has an even lower seat possible).

Rear of frame accepts 2.5 inch wide Hookworm tires, 2.4 CST Cyclops (important for hardtails)

Downsides: stock fork should have disc brake caliper mounts, and front wheel should have a left side flange that can accept a disc.

Since the seat is a little farther back, a powerful hub can easily wheelie, limiting the amount of power it can use.

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for reference, the down tube of a 2016 Electra Townie has a 44.5mm diameter, and the seat-tube, along with the top-tube has a 35mm diameter.
 
spinningmagnets said:
Downsides: stock fork should have disc brake caliper mounts, and front wheel should have a left side flange that can accept a disc.

Since the seat is a little farther back, a powerful hub can easily wheelie, limiting the amount of power it can use.

Your second "downside" explains why the first isn't actually a disadvantage all. With relatively little weight on the front wheel, you can't use strong braking force on the front of a Townie without skidding the front wheel.

Since V-brakes give a more natural and progressive feel, they're a better choice than disc for wheels that are lightly loaded. And in that way you reap the side benefits of a lighter, stiffer, stronger wheel; less weight; and lower cost.

For what it's worth, carefully set up V-brakes can be quite a bit more powerful than disc brakes, too, at a fraction of the cost.

Here's what I've got on the bike I'm riding today: ordinary, cheap Shimano V-brakes, Kool Stop Salmon pads, simple lightweight brake booster. I weigh just shy of 350 pounds, so I can assure you from relevant experience that these simple, inexpensive brakes are far more powerful than 95% of the discs I've tried, and far easier to control than the 5% that give comparable power.
rps20160709_161455.jpg
I even have ratio adjustable brake levers so I can fine tune the feel and response of my brakes at any time. To be fair, the same levers would have the same effect on any cable disc brake-- but no cable disc brake can touch these linear pulls in terms of power available.
 
spinningmagnets said:
There are several benefits to the Townie frame. ...
Well I do not actually have a Townie frame and acquiring one would be far too expensive for this project. My thoughts are to use a BBS02 with a SA 3 speed IGH in the rear, a long stroke thudbuster and 26 inch Sun Rhyno XL rims with Hookworm tires.

The donor frame I have been looking at is an old Mongoose HillTopper with semi-horizontal rear dropouts, 1 inch threaded curved tapered fork, cantilever brake studs and of course a british BB. The donor to provide the bottom bracket, seat tube(top only),head tube, fork and rear dropouts. I was looking at MTB frames purely to get something that could mount 26x2.5 hookworms. Additional I am thinking of a Mixte dual tube style with two straight tubes (bamboo poles) from the rear dropouts to the head tube and two straight tubes (bamboo poles) from the rear dropouts to bottom bracket. My next step is to draw it up with a 48 inch wheelbase using proportions derived from the Townie. I am wondering if it would be possible to put the mid drive motor inside the frame.

HillTopper small.jpg
 
Chalo said:
...Since V-brakes give a more natural and progressive feel, they're a better choice than disc for wheels that are lightly loaded. And in that way you reap the side benefits of a lighter, stiffer, stronger wheel; less weight; and lower cost.

For what it's worth, carefully set up V-brakes can be quite a bit more powerful than disc brakes, too, at a fraction of the cost. ...
I happen to like rim brakes as well (I tip the scales somewhat lower).

I think that you would find the article at the URL http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco-fever/disco-fever.html interesting.
Disk vs Rim Brakes.jpg
 
I have been messing around trying to come up with the design for a Bamboo frame in a crank foward configuration, This one (Plan A) is based on using Hookworm 24x2.5 tires and Sunringle Rhyno Lite XL rims. I still have lots of gotchas to work out but I wanted to pu this up for comments from anyone who is interested because I have looked at too much to see the obvious.
I am not concerned with jumps but I am concerned with bumps which is the whole reason for using the Hookworm balloon tires. I have read that they work well on Sun Rhyno Lite rim but after drawing the things I really question if even the Sun Rhyno Lite XL rim are wide enough. It is also a real problem to try and fit them into a straight tube frame (bamboo bends but when released it unbends). Those really wide tire may necessitate some funky rear drop fabrication in order to accommodate them.
Edit: pictures/files removed ... see below
The other accommodation for bumps is the full stroke Thudbuster seat post. Yes, it is not drawn correctly but the space is about right. That extra six inches in the seat post is also one reason for using 24 inch rims (and keep the minimum seat level at about 30 inches). The handlebar stem is turned around backwards to get the handle bar deeper into the cockpit. No derailleur is shown because I will use a IGH rear hub (the dimension are taken from a SA 3 speed --- I got lazy and just used the rear wheel in front). Ultimately the idea is to mount a Bafang BBS02 in the BB with the motor above the frame.
Edit: pictures/files removed ... see below
Other thoughts:
This might be a heck of a lot easier with 26x1.95 tires or even 26x2.125. With the 195 tires I might be able get by with using an old 700C mixtie frame as a donor by replacing the one inch thread fork with a 24 inch fork. That would also allow me to use caliper brakes (I just happen to have a set of brand new long arm calipers taking up space).

OK ... at this point my mind is wondering. Thoughts, comments, remarks and criticisms are welcomed are appreciated.
 
Be aware that 20-inch rims can now be had that will seat a 3-inch and even up to a 4-inch tire, for the rear.

Dogman has tried MANY different configurations, and by extending the tail, the rear wheel is much farther away. That means (for instance) if the tire hits a two-inch bump, the seat might only rise one inch. On a stock townie, the rear tire is almost right below the seat, much closer than on a longtail.

the center rooms in a cruise ship are actually the most expensive. They don't have an "ocean view" but...as the ship rolls from side to side in rough seas, the center-located room will "feel" this motion the least. It's the same for the seat of a longtail bike. The farther away both wheels are from the central seat, the less the seat will feel any bump/dip.

Whether you are talking about a hubmotor kit, or a mid drive, my "ultimate street commuter" is a longtail cargobike with a 20-inch rear wheel, suspension seat-post, and fat tires (not necessarily 4-inch, but 2.8-3.5 are pretty sweet IMHO).

edit: I have a crank-forward cruiser, and even though I have a large battery?...I found out how much range I have this morning. Two and a half week-ends.

The battery is big enough, that I don't feel any pressure to charge right away, and since I always feel like "I'll get to that later, when it's more convenient"...it never gets done. The result being that...I had to actually pedal home from the park, after riding there with my grandson (our Saturday morning ritual). I know, shocking, right? pedal forward stance is not the best for hills, because its awkward to stand on the pedals and efficiently shift your body weight from side to side (with a toddler seated between your handlebars). Will I get a bike with a more pedal-friendly posture? HA! I will now charge every weekend, and when this battery wears our I will buy one even BIGGER!

Electric feet-forward for lyfe, bitches!
 
You can steam bamboo to bend it, and leave it in a jig to cool, and it will "take" the new shape, and even act a a "springy" frame to absorb bumps/dips.

Your drawing reminds me of this (very graceful style):

2015-09-16-14.24.10.jpg


Requisite pic of "Spicy Curry"

yuba-spicy-curry-1.jpg
 
I think you're going to have to curve the bamboo to properly clear the 2.5" tires with enough room. STeaming the bamboo works. You can build a steam box out of styrofoam, Wood, or even PVC pipe, that sits over a boiling pot on a hotplate, or even a tea kettle.

12918_5F00_lead2.jpg


You can also soak the bamboo in a tub for a day or two, and then bend it to shape. In ether case, it's usually better to knock out the nodes inside the pole so it's hollow and will let moisture enter and leave.
http://www.wikihow.com/Bend-Bamboo
 
Because of the relatively poor torsional strength and stiffness of bamboo compared to metal, I think you're going to need a bracing tube running directly to the bottom bracket.
 
spinningmagnets said:
....Dogman has tried MANY different configurations, and by extending the tail, the rear wheel is much farther away.....
I will grant you that long tail bikes have certain advantages. Texas is known for wide open spaces however some of the places I must maneuver the bike (my townhouse and its postage stamp size patio/back yard) are not.
spinningmagnets said:
You can steam bamboo to bend it, and leave it in a jig to cool, and it will "take" the new shape, and even act a a "springy" frame to absorb bumps/dips. ...
Drunkskunk said:
I think you're going to have to curve the bamboo to properly clear the 2.5" tires with enough room. ...
I think that you folks are 100% correct about bending the bamboo. Unfortunately that means starting with green bamboo ... or more to the point starting with building jigs to bend it.
Edit: pictures/files removed ... see below
Chalo said:
Because of the relatively poor torsional strength and stiffness of bamboo compared to metal, I think you're going to need a bracing tube running directly to the bottom bracket.
I assume that you mean a brace from the BB to the top tube to resist the torque when pedaling. If I have to add htat then it will be a retro-fit. I really want to reserve that space for the BBS02. I also do not plan on pedaling very much (what can I say ... I am old and lazy).

I think that this is going to require cutting out some custom rear drop outs. I would like to use a 'track' style horizontal dropout with the SA 3 speed hub. I believe that I failed to show enough rake in the fork. I really will not know that until I get my hands on the donor bike and I am still looking in that regard. The Mongoos above was sold before I made up my mind (yes I am senile as well).

That still leaves me the question about the wide hookworms on a Rhyno Lite XL rim. I found a bit wider Sun 24 inch rim called BMX Kingpin:
Outer Width: 34.2mm
Inner Width: 26.3mm
Wall Depth: 15.25mm
Rim Depth: 19.8mm
Erd: 490mm
It is not shown anywhere on their web site (discontinued: was manufactured by SUN before the company was purchased by the current owners).
 
So I got a message that some of the files/pictures were missing. Seeing as how I have been working on some of the details and doing a bit of fine tuning I decided to delete all the "Bamboo Bike - Plan A" pictures/files and repost the newer stuff here. If you want to see the details (bottom stays and drops outs) then I really suggest that you get the PDF ... it is a heck of lot cleaner than the JPG pics.
Bamboo Bike - Plan A.jpg
Just to prove that I am more depraved than the average bear, I also considered cutting the bottom stays out of a piece of solid 1-1/2 inch thick bamboo plank (actually it is two pieces of 3/4 inch plank laminated together). That is a somewhat expensive (but possibly more practical) solution as a single piece of bamboo plank 3/4 thick x 12 wide by 48 long runs nearly $100 with shipping.
Reference: https://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/product/BAM44.html

View attachment Bamboo Bike - Plan A- All.pdf
 
spinningmagnets said:
edit: I have a crank-forward cruiser, and even though I have a large battery?...I found out how much range I have this morning. Two and a half week-ends.

The battery is big enough, that I don't feel any pressure to charge right away, and since I always feel like "I'll get to that later, when it's more convenient"...it never gets done. The result being that...I had to actually pedal home from the park, after riding there with my grandson (our Saturday morning ritual). I know, shocking, right? ...
So if you had a motor with regen enabled you could have just put it up on the kickstand and cranked the chain until you had built up enough charge to get home :lol:
 
Lew,

Basic design looks really good.
Couple of thoughts, mainly about rear triangle.
On my bamboo built the rear triangle caused one of the few “aw hell” moments,
when it looked like only a skinny tire was going to fit between the chain stays.
I got lucky, and a 38C tire works. But getting enough spread between the stays is challenge with bamboo.
Your first idea of bending the bamboo – don’t know, but I’m not too confident about that one.
Your second idea re building rear stays out of solid bamboo – cool idea, would work to give the right
space for substantial tires, but think it may have one killer problem. The areas I shaded in diagram
will both be “short bamboo fiber”. While bamboo fibers have great long-fiber strength, not sure about
bamboo strength in this kind of short-fiber situation. Looks like those areas could be vulnerable to breaking.
View attachment 1

Not fair to suggest problem without suggesting possible solution, so here is a thought.
Fabricate your own custom bottom bracket assembly, with a wider shell, like 120mm instead of 68.
Braze on the stubs for chain-stays and down-tube.
Relatively easy to do using just a propane torch and silver solder.
Instead of BBS02, use a BBSHD – empoweredcycles and maybe other vendors has them for up 120mm bottom bracket.
Then use simple straight bamboo poles for chainstays.
Presto, you’ve got an additional 50mm of tire clearance.
Crappily rendered illustration of concept below:
LewTwo2.JPG

Thinking separately about Chalo's comment re seat tube. He might be on the money re need for more bracing, just not sure.
 
For anyone that is still interested ...

I started looking at rigid forks and came to the conclusion that I might not be able to fit an inflated 2.5 wide tire between the cantilever posts. So I decided to back off to a 2 inch wide tire like the SCHWALBE Big Apple 24x2.0. This solves several problems. I might try some tricks to fit a wider tire on back at a later date but I think the 2 inch wide tires are doable. So I am calling this PLAN - B.

I also lengthened the bottom stays by two inches and raised the seat height to an even 30 inches to get a bit more reach from the seat to the pedals. I am showing a wooden brace between each set of stays. I figure to laminate several thinner pieces together with the layers running alternate directions to avoid splitting. Besides adding strength to the frame these give someplace to to attach the seat tube, calipers brakes as well as a handy kick stand. There is the possibility of chain rub against the inside of the right upper tube. This could require the use of some creative construction techniques. The cockpit is a bit on the long side so I might also need to do something funky with the handlebar/stem. Bamboo Bike - Plan B.jpg
I still do not have the front fork right. Any further refinement will have to wait until I have some actual pieces parts in hand particularly the front fork. I have ordered a Tange 5J MTB Fork. I think will fit a Critical cycles 49cm x 700C frame I have. I have never liked that frame so I would be happy to use the header tube, seat tube and BB from it.
View attachment Bamboo Bike - Plan B - All.pdf
 
I like the idea. Even though it may not be as rigid as steel, I totally love the mixte type frame concept.
 
footloose said:
... Your second idea re building rear stays out of solid bamboo – cool idea, would work to give the right
space for substantial tires, but think it may have one killer problem. The areas I shaded in diagram
will both be “short bamboo fiber”. While bamboo fibers have great long-fiber strength, not sure about
bamboo strength in this kind of short-fiber situation. Looks like those areas could be vulnerable to breaking. ...
I total agree with your assessment on both counts. It would be much better to have the plank made of layers with alternating directions for the grain to eliminate the tendency to split. I found something like that on EBAY: Solid Bamboo Three Ply plywood, 30"x11.5"x1/4" Bamboo Xcross 799.jpg http://www.ebay.com/itm/302017571371?
It is less expensive as well. I figure several of these could be laminated (epoxy) together, perhaps with a bit of carbon fiber cloth between the top and bottom layers for added strength. With a 1/40 bamboo veneer on the edges it would be hard to distinguish it from a sold plank.
 
LewTwo said:
The cockpit is a bit on the long side so I might also need to do something funky with the handlebar/stem.

photo151.JPG


That's called a "zero offset" or "zero reach" stem. You'll typically only find them for 22.2mm bars, but bars that diameter are easy to get with a pulled-back cruiser bend.
 
Laminated bamboo ply braces should make “Plan B” frame strong as an ox. Nice solution!

Love the configuration of BBS02 unit with motor inside frame. Very clean.

Stretched bottom stays + thudbuster + 2 inch Big Apples + 65 degree front fork angle… this should be a really comfortable ride.

Please let me know when you are ready to get the dropouts fabricated. If it is not too much trouble to order extras, I’d like to get a couple for myself for future project.
 
A 65 degree head angle requires a fork with more than the normal amount of offset to have a normal trail dimension for acceptable handling qualities. A fully equipped framebuilder can bend more offset into a traditional steel fork for you if necessary.
 
Chalo said:
That's called a "zero offset" or "zero reach" stem. You'll typically only find them for 22.2mm bars, but bars that diameter are easy to get with a pulled-back cruiser bend.
PERFECT !!! Thank you :) :)
Edit: Apparently no one has manufactured those since about 2006 :?

Chalo said:
A 65 degree head angle requires a fork with more than the normal amount of offset to have a normal trail dimension for acceptable handling qualities. A fully equipped framebuilder can bend more offset into a traditional steel fork for you if necessary.
That was one of the reasons that I laid out the dimensions for the townie and the smoothie --- to get and idea what they were using for the fork angle and offset. The Smoothie uses 67 degrees with a 2.25 inch offset. The townie has a 68 degree angle with a 2 inch offset. The extreme that I found was the Daysix Patriot. It was so ugly that I did not even bother to do a layout but I would guess it uses something like 63 degrees and a 4 inch offset. The fork that I ordered has about a 2.25 to 2.5 offset so I am going to try and live with that.
EDIT:
My bad ... I forgot to take into account the steerer tube laying on top of the table. Result is closer to 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 ... well crap
:( !
offset.jpg
It is also a 26 inch fork so I am going to have to break down and have someone braze/weld a piece of bar stock between the blades to mount the brake calipers.
 
footloose said:
Laminated bamboo ply braces should make “Plan B” frame strong as an ox. Nice solution!

Love the configuration of BBS02 unit with motor inside frame. Very clean.

Stretched bottom stays + thudbuster + 2 inch Big Apples + 65 degree front fork angle… this should be a really comfortable ride.

Please let me know when you are ready to get the dropouts fabricated. If it is not too much trouble to order extras, I’d like to get a couple for myself for future project.
Perhaps a bit too strong and heavy as well. I am back to using straight 1-1/4 tonkin bamboo with the laminated planks for braces. My very short (four inch) header tube necessitates a bit shallower top tube angle. I am reworking the dropout design to accomidate that as well as eliminate the possibility of chain rub. The good news is I am considering a two piece design that allows the angle to be changed. It might even allow for a gates belt to be installed.
 
LewTwo said:
Chalo said:
That's called a "zero offset" or "zero reach" stem.
Apparently no one has manufactured those since about 2006 :?

There were quite a few different brands of those. Hart was probably the best known. I think Dan's Competition has the Crupi version for sale.
 
Seems I was working too hard to 'reinvent the wheel' ... well at least the two piece rear dropouts with which to mount the wheel.
IMG_6560__41591.1466640766.225.225.JPG

http://www.shopcalfee.com/aluminum-dropouts/
Note the provision for disk brakes. They get around the chain rub problem by trimming (check the videos) off the inside of the bamboo stays in the area where it is bonded to the dropouts. Unfortunately --- no dimensions anywhere. Another interesting feature is they use pre-pegged fiberglass casting tape to wrap the joints.

They also have cable stops that can be epoxied/screwed to the bamboo.
Cablestops__63222.1416004682.225.225.JPG

http://www.shopcalfee.com/cable-stop/
 
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