Crystalyte TC3080 Pictures

[eAdrian]

Hi Allex, Rix and the rest.
I am also waiting for some finding from your build.

I am trying to compare TC 3080 with TC 4080 (on spec level).
I am aware of few differences between these. Just to confirm, these are the number I comparing with.
TC4080 -> TC 3080

• Stator: 40 -> 30 mm

• Weight: 9 -> 7,6 kg

• Load: 90 -> 75 Amp

• Voltage: 48-96 -> 24-104 V

• Dropout: 140 -> 135 mm

• Output: 6000 -> 7000 W

Spokes, wires, magnets same?
What is the expected torque range do you think?
I am looking for arbitration arguments why I should choose old model over the new one.

 

[Rix]

Hi Allex, Rix and the rest.
I am also waiting for some finding from your build.

I am trying to compare TC 3080 with TC 4080 (on spec level).
I am aware of few differences between these. Just to confirm, these are the number I comparing with.
TC4080 -> TC 3080

• Stator: 40 -> 30 mm

• Weight: 9 -> 7,6 kg

• Load: 90 -> 75 Amp

• Voltage: 48-96 -> 24-104 V

• Dropout: 140 -> 135 mm

• Output: 6000 -> 7000 W

Spokes, wires, magnets same?
What is the expected torque range do you think?
I am looking for arbitration arguments why I should choose old model over the new one.

Some of the data is subjective. Neither motor is "rated" for 4000w let alone 6000-7000, but with temp monitoring and venting or liquid cooling, both motors could handle burst of 7000 watts with no problems, just not continues. Obviously the TC4080 would take longer to over heat. The voltage spectrum you referenced is very optimistic for both motors. 96 volts and 104 volts, these motors would both go 50+MPH on a 21S battery or 88Volts hot off the charge. Your numbers are correct with stator widths and weights. According to the ebikes.ca spoke calculator, the spoke length needed for a rim with the same ERD from either motor is within 1.5mm of each other. Magnets are the same material, the the TC3080 mags are narrower than the TC4080.

 

[Allex]

Oh boy, so here is the story.
Did some tests and they are not promising.
The motor behaves very odd with the Adaptto. The fun part as it did not run well with a regular square wave either! Halls seems fine but when running with the regular sqare wave controller it acts like something is wrong with them.
WHat the hell?

Here is the video:
[youtube]OMDC06Ynpso[/youtube]

And here is the video with another motor but same controllers:
[youtube]y1rDws9kywA[/youtube]

 

[Rix]

Oh boy, so here is the story.
Did some tests and they are not promising.
The motor behaves very odd with the Adaptto. The fun part as it did not run well with a regular square wave either! Halls seems fine but when running with the regular sqare wave controller it acts like something is wrong with them.
WHat the hell?

Here is the video:
[youtube]OMDC06Ynpso[/youtube]

And here is the video with another motor but same controllers:
[youtube]y1rDws9kywA[/youtube]

I wonder if its something to do with brand of the controller, the TCs worked fine with the Crystalyte controllers.

 

[Allex]

Wish I had a Lyen to test it with or any other.
In a few weeks I will try doing the same with Mark II sine wave controller, the very same that Teslanv or Samd have.
http://kinaye-motorsports.myshopify.com/
http://ballaratebikes.com/

 

[madin88]

I would like to know the reason why TC motors have such shitty performance in many cases.
Right from the beginning there had been issues such as they did not like voltage above 70v, but the stator teeth count and pole count is EXACTLY the same as most popular hubmotors have, aside from the little bit deeper teeth.

It might be possible that this has something to do with the hall sensors, or the location of them (thus the timing).
Allex, i would change them for Honeywell SS411A. these are the most accurate and fastest switching sensors for all i know.

 

[Rix]

I would like to know the reason why TC motors have such shitty performance in many cases.
Right from the beginning there had been issues such as they did not like voltage above 70v, but the stator teeth count and pole count is EXACTLY the same as most popular hubmotors have, aside from the little bit deeper teeth.

It might be possible that this has something to do with the hall sensors, or the location of them (thus the timing).
Allex, i would change them for Honeywell SS411A. these are the most accurate and fastest switching sensors for all i know.

Maddin, I am not smart enough to know why, but the TC3065 and TC4080 both work very well on my Bombers controller battery combo. I know this for a fact. I think there is something going on with controller programming and the TC need a Crystalyte controller.

 

[Allex]

Rick, can you check with Kenny what hall sensors they use? If they are not SS411A it might be worth to swap them like Madin says.

 

[Rix]

Rick, can you check with Kenny what hall sensors they use? If they are not SS411A it might be worth to swap them like Madin says.

Give me the weekend and I will know something.

 

[madin88]

Allex, did you try manual tuning?
after looking at the pics again i noticed that the hall wires are running underneath the windings.
I believe there could be unwanted induction voltage on the output wires of the halls, but i'm no electronics engineer..

Rix, there had beed definitely issues in combination with Infineon based controller (such as Lyen). The reports are in the early Crown Thread.
Are not crystalyte controllers also infineon board based, just with another sticker on the case?

 

[Allex]

Auto detect gave me only the right phase combo, the angles was really wrong like -50. it actually could not tune them at all, the auto procedure took a very long time and it did not even proceed to the next phase where the motor spins up fast. So I had to tune them manually.
Adaptto have The Crown in their lab and Jeka, lead engineer, faced the very same issue like in my video above.

Btw, here is a old video, the controller is one of the earlier versions. They test with an old Clyte motor and all is good.
Jeka, the lead engineer is on the bike(actually Andreys old bike), Andrey is behind the camera and in the chair we have the owner of the company
[youtube]sqkcvxjl5KE[/youtube]

 

[Rix]

Allex, did you try manual tuning?
after looking at the pics again i noticed that the hall wires are running underneath the windings.
I believe there could be unwanted induction voltage on the output wires of the halls, but i'm no electronics engineer..

Rix, there had beed definitely issues in combination with Infineon based controller (such as Lyen). The reports are in the early Crown Thread.
Are not crystalyte controllers also infineon board based, just with another sticker on the case?

Yes they are, but I am thinking its something to do with controller's programming, like i said the TC4080 and 3065 I have worked on my Bomber. I will see if I can get a video of the TC3065 this weekend.

 

[Rix]

Rick, can you check with Kenny what hall sensors they use? If they are not SS411A it might be worth to swap them like Madin says.

Got this from Kenny, let me know what your thoughts are. Rick

Crystalyte Motor <kenny@crystalyte.com>
1:46 AM (4 hours ago)

to me
Hi Rix,
The motor build in with hall effect sensor ss411A x 3pcs.
I saw the video which it work with sine wave controller more smooth and square not so smooth. It is the fact that the sine wave controller much better and low current on unload.
- We have sine wave controller with 48-72V 50A and 65A now.
Kind Regards
Kenny
www.crystalyte.com

---------------------回复的邮件---------------------

发件人：Rix Babs<babcockrick8231@gmail.com>

收件人：kennycrystalyte<kennycrystalyte@gmail.com>

时间：2016年4月15日 09:21:06 (星期五)

主题：TC 3065 and TC3080s



Hello Kenny,

I purchased two TC3065 and two TC3080 a while back through Electricrider. The motors work fine with Crystalyte Controllers, however, not with generic controllers and Adapto controllers. What kind of Sensors are you guys using with the motors? Here is a vid explaining what I am talking about.

 

[Rix]

Hi Allex,
Got another email from Kenny, he seems to think when you tried the TC3080 with the generic controller, the phase wires weren't matched correctly. I sent him your video so he did see it. If you want, I will forward the emails from Kenny to you.

Rick

 

[Allex]

Thx Rick, but this was the best phase/hall wire combo. Could be so that this generic 250W shit controller is the issue, Will let you know in a week with a another sinewave controller.

 

[Rix]

Thx Rick, but this was the best phase/hall wire combo. Could be so that this generic 250W shit controller is the issue, Will let you know in a week with a another sinewave controller.

Just passing along what Kenny said, I know you know what you are doing, in spades. Still it doesn't explain why the Leaf Motor ran okay with the Generic. I can understand the Adapto not being compatible, you noted that a long time ago, and Adapto has stated there controllers don't work with the TC series. BTW, I forwarded Kenny's emails to you.

Rick

 

[andrmorr]

Anyone got any updates...sure hoping Powervelocity.com's sinewave controller will run my 3080...it's in the mail so it won't be long now and I'll be able to report my own results...

 

[Allex]

I got the Mark II controller But did not had the time to install the right connectors and try all 36 phase/halls combos yet!

 

[Rix]

Got this idea from Dr Bass. He runs a bead of epoxy around the edge of the magnets for reinforcement. It must work as he has a 2wd 1/8 mile drag racing ebike build puming 17kw to each motor for a total of around 34kw. The magnets are holding just fine. I used JB weld on my TC3065 so I didn't have to bake the shell over night to get it to cure.

 

[andrmorr]

Anyone got any updates...sure hoping Powervelocity.com's sinewave controller will run my 3080...it's in the mail so it won't be long now and I'll be able to report my own results...

Results also posted in similar thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=75888


UPDATE-
Final testing completed, and the sinewave controller from Powervelocity.com runs my Crystalyte TC3080 like a champ! Figuring out the Hall and Phase combinations was the killer...Crystalyte likes to make their colors in different order I guess, but after a bunch of trial and error and a huge amount of help from Powervelocity.com, it works great...Here's the winning combo for hooking this controller to a Crystalyte TC3080...FYI my Battery is 84v nominal so the original problem posed by HPC is no longer an issue...

Controller PHASE BLUE to Motor PHASE YELLOW
Controller PHASE GREEN to Motor PHASE BLUE
Controller PHASE YELLOW to Motor PHASE GREEN
Controller HALL BLUE to Motor HALL GREEN
Controller HALL GREEN to Motor HALL YELLOW
Controller HALL YELLOW to Motor HALL BLUE

 

[Rix]

Anyone got any updates...sure hoping Powervelocity.com's sinewave controller will run my 3080...it's in the mail so it won't be long now and I'll be able to report my own results...

Results also posted in similar thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=75888


UPDATE-
Final testing completed, and the sinewave controller from Powervelocity.com runs my Crystalyte TC3080 like a champ! Figuring out the Hall and Phase combinations was the killer...Crystalyte likes to make their colors in different order I guess, but after a bunch of trial and error and a huge amount of help from Powervelocity.com, it works great...Here's the winning combo for hooking this controller to a Crystalyte TC3080...FYI my Battery is 84v nominal so the original problem posed by HPC is no longer an issue...

Controller PHASE BLUE to Motor PHASE YELLOW
Controller PHASE GREEN to Motor PHASE BLUE
Controller PHASE YELLOW to Motor PHASE GREEN
Controller HALL BLUE to Motor HALL GREEN
Controller HALL GREEN to Motor HALL YELLOW
Controller HALL YELLOW to Motor HALL BLUE

Thats great news! Are you running any kind of thermal monitoring/management? Also, have you done any speed runs yet?

 

[andrmorr]

Both the motor and the CA have thermal sensors so I will get them synch'd to prevent a thermal accident...
Unlaced the max speed on the CA is over 101 mph...I let off before it maxed out because I don't have all the side screws in which leaves it a little off balance...Note to self, don't leave side screws in another state when you want to reassemble a motor... will post better results as I get everything bolted up... today is some wheel lacing...

 

[Rix]

Both the motor and the CA have thermal sensors so I will get them synch'd to prevent a thermal accident...
Unlaced the max speed on the CA is over 101 mph...I let off before it maxed out because I don't have all the side screws in which leaves it a little off balance...Note to self, don't leave side screws in another state when you want to reassemble a motor... will post better results as I get everything bolted up... today is some wheel lacing...

Nicely done, I am patiently awaiting your up and running set up.

 

[Allex]

Well, looks like a wider stator gives you lower kv at the same turn count. So a 45mm 4t motor does spin slower than a 30mm 4T at the same voltage. Given this My 3080 will be to fast on the road. Maybe I should have gotten 3065 instead. But there is so little information regarding kv, windings and other stuff when it comes to Crystalyte.

 

[Rix]

Well, looks like a wider stator gives you lower kv at the same turn count. So a 45mm 4t motor does spin slower than a 30mm 4T at the same voltage. Given this My 3080 will be to fast on the road. Maybe I should have gotten 3065 instead. But there is so little information regarding kv, windings and other stuff when it comes to Crystalyte.

The TC3080 is 9.9 Kv
the TC3065 is 8.6 KV

And now you know