CUBE EPO german swiss cake

F

flathill

100 kW
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
1,281
cube-epo-29er-eurobike.jpg


Love this bike! Just waiting to cash in/out when greece goes bankrupt and the euro crashes and the dollar strengthens (flight to safety riiiight haha your best bet is to immediately use all your money all the timed to better mankind so have nothjng to lose because nor out our infinite physical structure or in our 0 gram mind wealth)

Just kidding not old enough for an ebike
and yes me sweet salty balls are super sweaty if you must know

must know motor more
german engineered and swiss made. Need say more

Who wants to go into the ultra high end hub (ironless + halbach + perspiration) motor business made in California once china's real estate crashes to earth and neo prices return from the moon??? talking bout blue WhalE power not fing horses retard (aka flathill)

http://www2.cube.eu/de/pedelec/epo-29er/
 
flathill said:
must know motor more
german engineered and swiss made. Need say more
Click to expand...
The Storck motor is German "design", made in Switzerland and has similar constructional features....
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/storck-team-up-with-cosworth-on-new-electric-bike-project-28919/



1295002956668-158dotmgg0cm8-500-90-500-70.jpg


29-epo_d-4.jpg
 
Thanks Miles! 60 Nm
Not bad for a smal direct drive (i think its dd because it does regen)
Designed by Cosworth
I knew i liked what i saw
Nice bike all round integrated cables, antitheft features, replaceable dropout....7005
The new swiss currency peg should help swiss exporters
 
Ahh yes the 1st gen was fluff
I wonder if the cube has 2nd gen collab
Fluff all around good call
I want to see one torn down
Cube has no usa distribs it looks like
 
Lebowski said:
all hub motors are crap by design anyway.....
Click to expand...

Would you care to explain a bit more what you mean here Mr Lebowski ?

Do you mean all the hubs you've seen and/or tried so far are crap,
or the concept of a hub motor itself is crap ?

If it is point 2, then i must say i profoundly disagree with you.
I'm a mechanical engineer and i must say the simplicity and efficiency of the hub motor concept for a bike is something that you rarely see when it comes to transform a source of energy into a forward movement.

Think about it a minute:
- electricity in battery pack (no pipes, no pumps, rechargeable at home or work, cheap)
- efficient transformation of this energy into forward movement with so few steps and components, not even physically touching the wheel to put it in motion, it's almost magic. (no gears, no noise, no internal combustion with all it comes with, no crankshatf, no oil)
- and as if it were not enough, possibility to recuparate some of the energy into the battery while braking.

I'm sorry, the hub is the wheel re-invented. No less.

Tell me something as simple and beautiful as this for transportation needs !
 
Hugues said:
Lebowski said:
all hub motors are crap by design anyway.....
Click to expand...

Would you care to explain a bit more what you mean here Mr Lebowski ?

Do you mean all the hubs you've seen and/or tried so far are crap,
or the concept of a hub motor itself is crap ?

If it is point 2, then i must say i profoundly disagree with you.
I'm a mechanical engineer and i must say the simplicity and efficiency of the hub motor concept for a bike is something that you rarely see when it comes to transform a source of energy into a forward movement.

Think about it a minute:
- electricity in battery pack (no pipes, no pumps, rechargeable at home or work, cheap)
- efficient transformation of this energy into forward movement with so few steps and components, not even physically touching the wheel to put it in motion, it's almost magic. (no gears, no noise, no internal combustion with all it comes with, no crankshatf, no oil)
- and as if it were not enough, possibility to recuparate some of the energy into the battery while braking.

I'm sorry, the hub is the wheel re-invented. No less.

Tell me something as simple and beautiful as this for transportation needs !
Click to expand...

crap might be a little harsh, but they are dam heavy, cant climb real steep hills, badly inefficient at low speed, too much unsprung weight, etc.
but hubs are gold in other ways, and they do look like an awesome design.
 
toolman2 said:
...crap might be a little harsh, but they are dam heavy, cant climb real steep hills, badly inefficient at low speed, too much unsprung weight, etc.
but hubs are gold in other ways, and they do look like an awesome design.
Click to expand...

Good. Some meat to discuss.

Heavy: ok. not feather light. But again, what are you comparing them with on this aspect ? certainly not a gas engine ?

Can't climb steep hills: how steep is this ? on asphalt i can climb any hills made for cars. on rocks/grass/mud , a bit tricky i agree. But it's not really the hub that cannot make it more than the bike itself. What other vehicle can climb better on these surface ? A quad ? But then let's make a quad with for hubbies instead and it'l work just as fine in my opinion.

inefficient at low speed: low speed of vehicle or low speed of engine ? If low speed of vehicle then which other engine is more efficient ? gas engine running iddle ? Add some gears to a hub and you solve this problem, if it is a problem.

too much unsprung weight: i've read this in Optibike ad's. Ok. If you want to ride dirty trails, i agree on this one.
 
It also appears to have a round axle on that end. :?

Can't see the other end; maybe that has a torque arm flat on it outboard of the disc brake rotor.
 
Lebowski said:
all hub motors are crap by design anyway..... (and I live in Switzerland even :roll: )
Click to expand...

Them is Fightin' wo'ds! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Gotta watch yer back now, hubbies doesn't take kindly t'thet kind of talk!! :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I see advantages to hub motors in their elegant simplicity, and if you don't have to climb a lot of varied terrain, meaning lots of elevation change with steep hills, it's hard to beat the low parts count and few things to go wrong with a good DD or geared hub motor.

However, if you need to climb steep hills, and want to go 20+ miles range, for most cases, your battery is going to need to be larger than most (at least 20 AH for LiFeP04, 15 AH for LiPo) to do the same work a good mid-drive can do with half the battery capacity.

So, each to their own, I plan on building up a hub motor soon too as my "bang around" bike that I will use on the Tri-Met Bus racks as a commuter.

If it's something that will become available for a better price due to a falling Euro, it might be pretty nice to have.

It looks pretty compact, how powerful is it? Hopefully it's not just another 250W underpowered motor. :?:
 
flathill said:
cube-epo-29er-eurobike.jpg


Love this bike! Just waiting to cash in/out when greece goes bankrupt and the euro crashes and the dollar strengthens (flight to safety riiiight haha your best bet is to immediately use all your money all the timed to better mankind so have nothjng to lose because nor out our infinite physical structure or in our 0 gram mind wealth)

Just kidding not old enough for an ebike
and yes me sweet salty balls are super sweaty if you must know

must know motor more
german engineered and swiss made. Need say more

Who wants to go into the ultra high end hub (ironless + halbach + perspiration) motor business made in California once china's real estate crashes to earth and neo prices return from the moon??? talking bout blue WhalE power not fing horses retard (aka flathill)

http://www2.cube.eu/de/pedelec/epo-29er/
Click to expand...

Hmmm but where did they hide the battery??!?! :?










J/K!! :mrgreen: :p
 
Lebowski said:
all hub motors are crap by design anyway..... (and I live in Switzerland even :roll: )
Click to expand...

Newbies can be so Funny! A few months in a very very narrow slice of the hobby, and already an expert. :lol:

Don't worry, once you learn a little about the ebike hobby and gain some perspective, you will discover that there are other people on ebikes who have needs and design criteria that are <GASP> different from yours. There is no single 'right' or best solution for all ebikers - there is a different 'best' solution for each of the thousands of different needs.

In my 5 years in this hobby, I've made it a point to buy and try everything eBike. A lot of solutions don't meet MY needs, some of it is poorly made, but for every single piece of hardware, I can envision an application where it would be the best choice. Why can't you?

I've been trying to figure out why the Outrunner Thugs and LiPo Bullies feel the persistent need to drop into threads on hubbies and LIFePO4, look down their nose, and pronounce it crap? I don't see people going to Outrunner/Lipo threads being abusive like that. Honestly, you guys don't look half as cool as you think. :oops:

I miss the old days of E:S when we were just thrilled to share the EV grin with each other, we didn't care how you got your grin, and we definitely weren't divided up into little cliques like high school girls arguing about who has the cutest date to the prom.

-JD
 
Ha ha :D

I built an RC drive myself, only to discover that the noize and hassle is not worth it. I'm still considering building a mid-drive, but it will have to be 40HP in a Gas Gas trial frame to make the noize worth it. Toy motors can only make a bike sound like a toy, with toy like reliability. :mrgreen:

How is that?

Oatnet is right, everyone is entitled to fullfill his own need, the way he likes. Building Ebikes is a beautifull and usefull hobby, all ways to get one to work are good when you built it yourself and use it.
 
The low speed inefficiency isn't really correct either, not on flat road anyway. Don't forget small throttle = low voltage for the motor. Up hill or into a stiff wind or pulling a trailer, ie higher load, at low speed then yes it's not efficient, but neither is any BLDC motor without variable gearing. The efficiency curves for all of our BLDC motors are shaped virtually the same, so overlay low % of max speed on any of them and you get a similar result. Current limiting can go a long way to flattening out the efficiency and power curves, but that requires bigger heavier motors to take real advantage of, so few really get that one.
 
crap might be a little harsh, but they are dam heavy, cant climb real steep hills, badly inefficient at low speed, too much unsprung weight, etc.
but hubs are gold in other ways, and they do look like an awesome design.
Click to expand...

If you're in the area, come try out my MAC motor on 3000 watts. Or someone's BMC :)
 
Hugues said:
toolman2 said:
...crap might be a little harsh, but they are dam heavy, cant climb real steep hills, badly inefficient at low speed, too much unsprung weight, etc.
but hubs are gold in other ways, and they do look like an awesome design.
Click to expand...

Good. Some meat to discuss.

Heavy: ok. not feather light. But again, what are you comparing them with on this aspect ? certainly not a gas engine ?

Can't climb steep hills: how steep is this ? on asphalt i can climb any hills made for cars. on rocks/grass/mud , a bit tricky i agree. But it's not really the hub that cannot make it more than the bike itself. What other vehicle can climb better on these surface ? A quad ? But then let's make a quad with for hubbies instead and it'l work just as fine in my opinion.

inefficient at low speed: low speed of vehicle or low speed of engine ? If low speed of vehicle then which other engine is more efficient ? gas engine running iddle ? Add some gears to a hub and you solve this problem, if it is a problem.

too much unsprung weight: i've read this in Optibike ad's. Ok. If you want to ride dirty trails, i agree on this one.
Click to expand...

its ok, 99% of all my ebike fun has been on hubbies, they are unreal at being simple, sealed away, reliable, and cruising even at very high speeds. but they are always going to have a very limited ability for high torque and efficiency at low speed, especially continuous output.

the reality is that at or below 20kph most of our hubs will struggle to output even 1kw continuously without cooking, despite weighing up to 10kg. -this means that even a mild 5 degree (about 10%) hill cannot be climbed continuously, normally its just lucky the hill is done before we are cooked and thats where the 10kg of thermal mass saves the day. -i doubt anyone is going to really like this 1kw maximum much, so ask around a bit, like justin who has tested this (as i have) on a dyno, or liveforphisics, or maby try the ebike.ca simulator etc.

and yes, we can put 5 or 10 times more power in but that just gives 25 and 100 times the heat losses, showing some quite high CA readings, but dont confuse this with power out.

so to climb something not just 5 degrees, but 30 to 35 degrees+ (that 4wds and dirtbikes can climb even when its gravel) needs a different approach, the best you can do with a hubbie is make it the full diameter of the wheel, or just make it fatter. little tweaks here and there like axial flux or ironless would help but you cannot do what you really need to get its efficiency up and that is GEAR IT DOWN, unless you can get your motor about 5 times the diameter of the tire. :wink:

so to try and explain it john, about them all just being bldc motors with the same kinda efficiency curves and sould be the same, they are not being used at the same spot on the curve ie peak efficiency is when your no load losses match your ir losses, but with a hub with a 26" tyre this could be above 100kph and the hubbie is right in its element, but if you can gear a small 2kg motor to peak for the job you want it to do, and output more than a 10kg hub.

this is why: optibikes do well up pikes, bmc and others gear their hubs, dudes going for max output from hubbies use 20" wheels, hubs win at high speed cruising like solar races, etc, etc.

the geared hubs are a good way around this issue -agreed. and each motor type has its purpose, and i am mad keen to ride my hub motored bike daily. but if you are stuck with the wheel rpm as your motor rpm then its a bit limiting in terms of output power, and cosworth should know all about it cos at 20kph with a 26" wheel, even one of their 500kw+ F1 engines jammed in our hub could still only make around 5kw. :shock:

btw this motor seems good and all but im wondering if you have to unspoke to get it apart?
 
just a small analogy

back in the 1880's it seemed a really good idea to build steam engines / internal combustion
engines where the wheel shaft doubled as crankshaft (locomotives being a very good example)

but as said by other people, its a question of efficiency. The Bosch crank motor for instance
has its peak efficiency at 60 to 80 rpm. This is the rpm region most people pedal at so the motor
takes advantage of people's need to change gear outside of this rpm range.
 
now you're bringing something Mr Lebowski.

I'm learning here, through this lively debate.

But damn it, a hub is so silent and simple ! I've tried the Bosch, quite bulky under the pedals, does not look so good from the design point of view.

I'm just thinking out loud here, at what RPM the hub is most efficient ? Is there a way to add a simple clutch mechanism to exploit in a better way it's performance ?
 
Lebowski said:
its a question of efficiency.
Click to expand...

That is an important design criterea for you. Not for me, I rarely ride more than 30 miles, and 18lbs of battery is enough to get there. I have VERY steep hills in my area that I climb every day with my hubbies, no problem.

For me, a hub motor introduces zero additional moving parts to an ebike, which translates to reliability. I want a bike I can get on and ride every day for the next two years without f'ing with the drivetrain. Stealth is important to me - the quieter the better. Ease of installation is important to me - I don't need to demonstrate my fabrication skills for bragging rights. I could go on and on, but that isn't relevant - what is relevant is my preferences are just as important to me, as yours are to you.

Finally, it is a question of whether you are a brother in the Cult of EV Grin (CEG), or a hater who drops into other peoples threads to tell them their grin machine is crap.

-JD
 
Hugues said:
But damn it, a hub is so silent and simple ! I've tried the Bosch, quite bulky under the pedals, does not look so good from the design point of view.
Click to expand...

huh ?

I quite like the looks of my girlfriends bike...

I once did some quite fundamental equations for my radial flux motor. If I remember correctly efficiency (or: power_loss / power_usefull)
depends on (as mentioned already by someone else)
- copper volume
- motor volume
- speed squared
- magnet force squared
more is better as far as these points go. for power_loss I only calculated resistive losses in the wiring, not bearing/mechanical losses
 
oatnet said:
Lebowski said:
all hub motors are crap by design anyway..... (and I live in Switzerland even :roll: )
Click to expand...

Newbies can be so Funny! A few months in a very very narrow slice of the hobby, and already an expert. :lol:
Click to expand...


Actually, Lebowski has done some amazing things that I don't think any other single member of ES has ever matched in the history of the site.

He made his own motor from scratch, it's a beautiful axial flux motor built from normal household things. Which he uses for, get this, his own brushless controller that he built from SCRATCH, complete with all the programming and an amazing control system and everything.

There are a handful of people here who have the skills and knowledge and experience to be entitled to making a blanket statement about motors. Lebowski has single-handedly done more amazing motor/controller development, design, and research than perhaps the entire rest of all hubmotor users on ES combined (excluding Justin).

That said, I do think hubmotors have there place. If you can fit a huge one into a small enough diameter wheel, it's not too painful to use as long as you're only in a light-use situation, and you lack ambitions of racing. I've still not have one survive more than 7minutes of a racing situation, but a few delivered only mildly-soggy performance for a few minutes before smoking, and that means they do have a place in the world.
 
Hub motors have their place, because they are simple, and this simplicity is the best way to spread the use of Ebikes.
They have their place because they are silent, and without this silence, many could not ride an Ebike where they like to ride.
They are promised to an even better place, when they evolve toward better performance and lighter weight.
They will have the best place when a proper, shifting internal gearing system is developped for them.

I gave it a try, and I admire those who are spending so much time in research and building the RC bikes. I prefer to spend time riding, and like to be able to do maintenance quickly. My mid-drive build will be a motorcycle, for I don't have the time nor use for an RC Ebike. Many are like me, and most Ebikers don't even want performance. I will continue to try pulling the best out of hub motors, and hope that they evolve quickly, for I don't have so many years left of trail riding ahead.
 
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