Custom A123 pack charging options.

BiGH

100 kW
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
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CBD - Melbourne
Hey all,
Both me and a mate (who i got into EVs) are looking at making an a123 based pack. I was wondering what the best options for charging and ballancing are? i'm looking for a setup (can be custom) in which it just has to be plugged in. I'm looking at building a pack that is 30s8p or two packs of 15s8p or something. After the link to battery tests were posted it seems a123 is the best!

I want it to turn off automatically when the cells are charged, and to ballance each time the pack is charged.

Take Care,
Haydon
 
TO just plug in and go that makes it harder. You could mod some external dewalt chargers to run since they each can do 10 cells and balance them too. But dewalts balancing techniques are questionable http://www.terrorhurtz.com/a123/charge.aspx

The other option is 12s max and that is to use hobby market chargers with balancers they provide. But those are not usually plug and play and require some menus but once setup work pretty well. I use the hypersion 1210i a123 version to do my 10s packs
 
magudaman said:
TO just plug in and go that makes it harder. You could mod some external dewalt chargers to run since they each can do 10 cells and balance them too. But dewalts balancing techniques are questionable http://www.terrorhurtz.com/a123/charge.aspx

The other option is 12s max and that is to use hobby market chargers with balancers they provide. But those are not usually plug and play and require some menus but once setup work pretty well. I use the hypersion 1210i a123 version to do my 10s packs

would the hobby chargers/ballancers be required to be set up each time for charging? or just once to setup then they will charge and ballance each time they're plugged in?
 
Well i have worked with my Hyperion and the Great Planes triton. Both let you set up battery profiles and that information is saved after it is unpluged. All you have to do when plugged in is select that profile then push charge.
 
Hey H

I'm looking for the same sort of setup, but much smaller than yours, just 12s3p (or 10s4p if that works out cheaper). Like magudaman says, the limit for off the shelf solutions seems to be 12s. The BalancePro system http://www.fmadirect.com/products.htm?cat=38&nid=55 looks good, but could work out expensive for your setup.

Using the DeWalt BMS and charger to charge cells in parallel seems like the cheapest option, but then you're limited to 10s modules, the BMS can be tricky to handle (I've already blown up one), and you still have to provide some sort of overdischarge protection at cell level.
 
Thanks malcom,

And to further make it worse - it looks like i just killed one of the 4 sla chargers :(:(

should only be a <2 week wait until the lithiums come (not the a123)

but now it just makes me want to get the a123s sooner (i want 2 packs)
 
Can these a123 charger/balancers be used in series? 24s LiFePO4 would make a nice 72+v pack.
 
If you build a123 packs in multiples of 4s, you can easily use any number of the better SLA chargers, which all seem to use the same constant current/constant voltage (CC/CV...) charging profile found in almost all of the hobby chargers with a123-compatible charging modes. The main difference is that the SLA chargers have a fixed cutoff voltage and with the RC chargers, you need to select the number of cells in series, which then determines the cutoff voltage.

A typical 48V SLA charger has a cutoff voltage of about 58V. It will charge a battery at the max current until the voltage reaches this level (CC mode...) and then holds this voltage while the current gradually get reduced (CV mode...). Generally, when the current drops below about 10 percent of the max charge rate, the charge is complete. In any case, a123 cells have an optimum CC/CV voltage cutoff of 3.65V, so a 16s pack setup needs a cutoff of 58.4V. This works pretty much across the board, so an 8s a123 pack will work with a 24V SLA charger, a 12s with a 36V version, etc.

There are two other issues with using RC chargers. One is they typically are only good for 180-200W, so even if they allow up to 10-12s setups, the max charge rate is limited to about 5A. The other is that they all are designed to work off a 12V input, so you still need a good power supply to use them at home. I use a 25A model from Radio Shack with two Thunder Power TP-1010C 10-cell chargers and "matiching" TP-210V auto-balancers and this setup works quite well. The balancers are linked to the chargers with serial cables, which allows the charger to monitor and display voltage levels for each block of cells.

Getting back to your question about how to do a 30s4p setup, I really think you need to break this down to sub-packs, to make the charging and balancing "managable". If it were me, I'd do six 10s4p subpacks. You would use them 3 in series and 2 in parallel. You could have a charging harness that would let you charge them in 10s blocks, either using three chargers/balancers or you could do it with two chargers and a harness that connected the packs as two groups of three packs in parallel.

I'm doing a new a123 setup that will use the cells pretty much just how they come out of the DeWalt packs. By keeping the plastic end cases intact, all the balancing connections are available in the two 5-pin connectors that the DeWalt BMS plugs into, normally. I made a simple harness that plugs into these connectors and has standard balancer connectors on the other end. Here's what a 10s2p pack looks like:

a123-10s2p-01.jpg


a123-10s2p-02.jpg



Actually, what I'm doing now is making two 10s4p packs, using this method, which I will use in a 20s4p configuration on one of my bikes. I got some extra-wide shrink wrap that will cover a complete 10s4p pack. With the harnesses pre-made, it only takes about a half hour to do the whole thing.

What I'm also doing is making a 10-cell version of the LVC circuit that Bob Mcree came up with in one of the other threads. This very clever, and simpl, design will monitor the voltage of each block of paralleled cells. The circuit plugs into the "Brake Inhibit" input on all Clyte controllers. When any block of cells drops below 2.7V, the brake inhibit line trips, which causes the controller to cut power. The board I'm doing will have connectors that will plug into the balancer plugs on the pack. I will use two of these circuits, one with each 10s4p pack. The outputs can be"ganged" together and connected to the controller.

-- Gary
 
Can you give a part number and vendor for the extra-wide heatshrink?

I've been looking for it, and have only come across some expensive stuff at buyheatshrink.com, 5".

And I'd love to see your LVC implementation when it's done...
 
brandonh said:
Can you give a part number and vendor for the extra-wide heatshrink?

I've been looking for it, and have only come across some expensive stuff at buyheatshrink.com, 5".

And I'd love to see your LVC implementation when it's done...

The rubberized shrink wrap I use is from BatterySpace (http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=964). I used the 6.25" stuff to make the pack shown above. For the 10s4p packs, which are basically two of what is shown above, side-by-side, I will use the 9-3/8" version, which they seem to be out of at the moment (I bought all the had yesterday...).

As for the circuit, I'm working on getting the boards made now. I'm thinking about offering them here, both standalone and as part of a new kit that will include the pre-made harness and the shrink wrap needed.

-- Gary
 
Great information Gary! I was just starting to look at lead acid battery chargers when you posted this, so it's good to have you confirm that they'll work. Bob Mcree's LVC circuit sounds like a very neat solution and I'm sure you'll have lots of demand for them. Just one question: is the brake inhibit line a common feature on most brushless hub motor controllers?
 
Malcolm said:
Great information Gary! I was just starting to look at lead acid battery chargers when you posted this, so it's good to have you confirm that they'll work. Bob Mcree's LVC circuit sounds like a very neat solution and I'm sure you'll have lots of demand for them. Just one question: is the brake inhibit line a common feature on most brushless hub motor controllers?

Actually, I'm not sure about any other controllers, but all the Crystalytes I've seen have this input. Basically all that happens is that this line gets grounded to enable the "inhibit", so any number of these circuits can be ganged together. I picked 10 per board mainly because it can then use the same standard balancer connectors. The balancer plugs then serve a dual purpose, they provide access to each cell block for the LVC circuit while riding, and then are plugged into the auto balancers during charging.

I've got a big pile of parts coming from Mouser in a couple of days, and the board is off to be fabbed. With any lock, I can have these ready to go in a week, or so. :)

-- Gary
 
OK, different tack – I like to explore every angle before I finally settle on my original idea 8)

Does anyone know of any cheap but reliable single-cell chargers suitable for A123, in other words 3.6–3.7V cutoff?
Speed of charging is not a priority, so the charge current could be as low as 0.5A.

I keep coming across chargers for CR123A batteries. These are 3V lithium batteries, supposedly charged to 3.6V, but I'm not sure of the chemistry and I suspect that the final charging voltage is higher than 3.6.
 
https://s.p10.hostingprod.com/@www.voltphreaks.com/ssl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=28&osCsid=5ea41f2200e37bea92b3bbff2839be03

I ordered 18 of those a few days ago, have not received yet, but Tony replied to my email promptly and has them in stock. ( Unless i cleared him out ! lol )
 
Thanks Y

Did you get confirmation that these chargers cut off at 3.65V? It's just I noticed that the spec sheet for the cells advertised on the same page states a maximum charging voltage of 4.2V. A123 say that brief but repeated charging to 4.2 will reduce life. Not trying to teach granny to suck eggs, honest :D
 
Email reply to my questions

Quote "Hi Gaston,

They seem to charge to over 3.6V, maybe 3.7V or so?

They can't be paralleled.

They are isolated so you can safely charge an entire pack though.

We ship priority which should be 5 days or so? Yes we take paypal via our website. Thanks! "

I don't have them yet, so i canot provide personal feedback but i'll update the thread as soon as they show up. :wink:
 
Interesting idea. Individual cell charging is definitely a great way to get balanced packs with every charge, and this is a relatively inexpensive solution at about $10 per cell block. From what I've seen from charging a123-based packs over the last year, or so, is that the optimum CC/CV cutoff voltage is 3.65V per cell. In the "early days", when the DeWalt packs first came out, we tried using straight 4.2V RC chargers. What happens is that during the charge process the voltage will rise at a steady rate until it hits 3.65V per cell, and then it goes up very quickly after it hits that point. It will rise to 4.2V in a few seconds. If you just stop at that point, the cell will be at about 80%. To get a full charge, however, you really need the CC mode, which holds the voltage at the cutoff and gradually reduces the current until it gets to about 10% of the max charge rate. You can do this using 4.2V as the cutoff, but it is said that it will reduce the life of the cell. I dcan't confirm that but I do have a few of my early RC packs that we abused this way and they still are going strong, with hundreds of cycles on them. In any case, I don't think an absolute cutoff of 3.65V per cell is critical. Anything from 3.65V to about 3.8V should be fine.

I just ordered 10 of these chargers myself. I'm in the process of trying to standardize on 20s setups on everything, and am in the middle of building a number of 10s4p "sub-packs" that will have standard RC-type balancer plugs on them. I plan to use these with a pair of Thunder Power TP-210V auto-balancers and a pair of TP-1010C 10-cell chargers, but I can also wire these ten single chargers into connectors that can use the balancer plugs. At a 2A max charging rate it will take longer to charge (about 5 hours for a 10s4p pack...), but most of the time, that is fine. Should be interesting. :)

-- Gary
 
I'll be charging 25ah cells with these !!!!! :shock: helloooo long charge time.. but i will rarely drain the packs flat...

This will do for now until i get my hands on a big regulated power supply unit !!! sometime this winter !

ps: If anyone has a good solid unit for sale.. PM me !!! :p
 
What i plan in long term is to realize a multiple independend cell charger.

In other words, this cahrger would have multiple independent output set to 3.7V with a CC max of 10A (4C).

I have a big totoidal transformer of 10 output of 9V 10A.

What i would do is to seperate each 9V output into 2 seperate output and getting 20 secondary output of 4.5V.

Then i will search for a CC CV circuit that can hold 15A and be adjusted using 2 pot (one for I limit and another for the V limit)

I will built 20 of these circuit and charge each 4p cells with 10A.


Bob, have you an idea about an IC that can regulate 10A and 3.7V from a 4.5V source??


The other way would be to buy many 5V 10A power supply like Condor made that include a pot for seting I and V limit. they are something like 14$ each.

exemple:http://cgi.ebay.com/5V-DC-10A-50W-R...ryZ58286QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Or this one at 3.3 +/- 10% =3.63V(perfect!) 20A enclosed at 21$
http://www.web-tronics.com/103siouposuc.html
14$ x 20=280$ for a safe charger that charge very fast like 15min for 1p to 1hour for 4p...

Doc
 
Doctorbass,

This is an issue I've been looking into for the last month as well: do I use a big honkin' power supply or a multiple independent power supplies?

I'm leaning toward going with a Mastech HY5020E 50V 20A supply, because there is so much info out there on using it as a CC/CV charger, plus a power supply of that size would be really useful for motor bench testing. I'm also not sure where to get a 10-output transformer, and even then you have to figure out the individual charging. The issue with using "just the charger" is that you don't charge each cell to its maximum capacity or balance, which is why I'll use clamper circuits on each cell, similar or identical to the design Jeff posted recently. To automatically shut off, the opto-isolated outputs from the clampers, representing 'full charge', will all be connected in series and turn off the charger connection to the batteries. To me, this seems like the easiest solution; I could just adjust voltage/current with knobs. What I don't understand about it is how the transition to CV mode is handled with simple clamper circuits, if one cell gets to CV while another is at CC.

If you're set on individual charging, Maxim, Analog, and Linear all have a selection of charger ICs. I'm not sure what extra components let you charge at 10A with these. One of the nice features of some of the charger ICs is an I2C interface that can report charge delivered and monitor current and voltage. I think this would make creating your own hobby-style charger, with individual charge totals for cells, much easier! You'd just aggregate the I2C information and display it on a PC or LCD.

Now that I wrote that last paragraph, I'm not sure that either method is better. Sigh.

Keep us updated, because I'm looking for a faster charge solution for a 10s4p pack, and I'd go with the individual charging method if it was cheaper.

One more question, Doctorbass - what's the transformer part number, and where did you get it?

-Brandon
 
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