CUTE geared hub motors from bmsbattery/ecitypower

[GrayKard]

I've been looking for a small and light motor to do a 2wd DH bike conversion. I think these would be perfect so I bought two.

I purchased one Q-F-128SX front motor which is the 350/500 watt 36/48 volt version, and one Q-R-128SX rear motor same wattage and voltage. I made sure to include detailed comments so I get the right fit but will have to cross my fingers until they arrive.

I'll start a long and detailed build thread on this project in a day or two. Note: it may take a while to complete as I will be learning a lot as I go, like how to build a wheel, etc...

Gary

 

[Papa]

lynchy,

After pondering these 'Cuties', I'm interested. But, I need to know which hub has both the 6 screw access cover and is drilled and tapped for disc brake rotors. So is it the 108mm units or the 128mm.... front or rear?

 

[Drunkskunk]

108mm, 128mm, either way would work out great. I'm hoping to build a folder this winter, and Dahon makes a 20 pound model that work out great.

the only question is how strong are the gears?

 

[lynchy]

I hope the pics come out ok. I have a few different versions of the Ananda motor. The motor mounted in the rim is a 36V, 26" rim type. Also have some 24V motors; a front 20" rim without disk (high speed gear ~290rpm), front 26" with disk and a rear 26" with disk. I'm still waiting on test equipment and a cycle computer so can't give you definitive answer for the RPM but hopefully soon.

The front motor with disk is narrower than without disk as you should be able to see in the pic, but the same diameter. They are all 108 between spoke centres. The 128 motor is supposed to be not as good performance as the 108 plus it's cheaper and I'm not sure if it's geared. I don't have any 128 motors. The 108 motor has different gear ratios for the diferent rim size. At least 2 and maybe 3 different ratios. I've asked but can never get an answer as to how many ratios are available and what the max rpm of each is.

Regarding power, I've been told that they only use 1 winding which is 250W nominal which is 400W max power. I don't believe they do anything as high as 500W. As far as I understand they supply these primarily for Europe. However the sales guy in Ananda is particularly unhelpful and doesn't seem to have a very good grasp on either bicycles or his companies products, so who knows. The rear motor that just arrived requires 155mm drop out spacing, so that's no use to anyone. Even though their products seem pretty good, I'm pretty much at a point where I can't deal with their sales man any more, so Bafang will likely be getting my business, but who know, time and some more testing will tell.

By the way, what are they charging for these?

 

[danoulz]

Here's another Ananda-based hub motor kit (note the crankset / chainring torque sensor, shameless plug for those interested in this particular aspect: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1172-home-made-pedelec-pedal-torque-sensor.html#post62512 ):

http://www.e-bicycles.eu/en/index.html

 

[philf]

The 155mm rear option is a real pain. Even if you have a steel frame bike you can bend, you'll find it doesn't work well anyways - the chainline won't allow you to get down to the smaller cogs on the freewheel without the chain wanting to come off the front chainrings, and the spacing sux - you can't get more than a 5-speed freewheel on there without spreading the dropouts even more.

I "machined" (read that, "hacked off") the threaded collar off my rear GM mini (which was also for a 155mm dropout) that was intended for a threaded disc adapter, moved some of the spacers around, and then dished the wheel. I was able to get it to fit into 139mm with a 6-speed cassette (which has a 9 tooth cog on it!). It was a nuisance, but the only way to make the thing work reasonably.

Anyone else notice the picture of the wheel posted above? 3-cross lacing pattern - which might be a *bit* extreme for that diameter of hub to begin with - but whoever laced it started in the wrong place. Check out the location of the valve stem. I notice these things...

 

[lynchy]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the wheel build, but give me a break, it was my first effort as I gave up getting a local bike shop to do it for me, and without anything other than a spoke wrench and screwdriver. I tried to find suitable spokes for a 2 cross but could only get hold of 245mm spokes over here at short notice. Will try to get my hands on some appropriate spokes for a 2 cross pattern. I did follow Sheldon Browns instructions but must have got my left/right handed rim, drive/non drive, leading/trailing or whatever mixed up somehow....

I think I kind of caused the issue with the wide rear motor as I did ask for a rear motor with disk and 6/7 speed freewheel, if it was possible. I suppose I should have also stated that I required it to also fit into a bike :? I'm sure if the threaded section for the disk were removed and it was fitted to a corrctly machined axle it should fit ok into a standard dropout. I'll see if I can persuade them to take some more of my money to give me a motor that actually fits this time. They also do a narrower motor with the same diameter which was supplied for front with disk (in the previous pics), but haven't got round to testing it yet but suspect it might be lower powered.

I have used a 36V front motor at 48V and it pulled ok but it was noticeable that it seemed to heat up quite quickly and the power seemed to drop off as the resistance of the windings increased with the heat build up, but still maintained a reasonable speed on the flat. Once I've got a workable rear I'll do an all wheel drive with a pair of these and the Ananda controllers which are also very compact or a dual motor controller. I'll also be looking into getting some stronger gears made up for these and some other motors I'm using, but that's some way off yet.

 

[philf]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the wheel build, but give me a break, it was my first effort ...

Hahaha... and a good first effort it is . I did exactly the same thing before I realized that it mattered where you start. If you find shorter spokes and go with a 2-cross pattern, a slightly wonky pattern around the valve is unavoidable, you'll discover...

I'm anal about putting the brand label on the tire next to the valve stem, too. I dunno why.

 

[Drunkskunk]

So anyone know if the cute little motor's controller is worth using?
Anyone tried the battery yet?
I've got a bike all picked out to mount one or two of these in.

 

[Russell]

So anyone know if the cute little motor's controller is worth using?
Anyone tried the battery yet?
I've got a bike all picked out to mount one or two of these in.

Here are reviews of two of the controllers ecitypower/bmsbattery sell, they are essentially identical except for FET count/power rating.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13691

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13659

-R

 

[Drunkskunk]

lynchy, or anyone who knows. I see a QX85 and a QX100 version of the 108mm motors, for both front and rear, disc and no disc. The main diffrence seems to be the weight, a pound less for the QX85. top wattage is 100 more for the QX100

But is the gearing bigger or stronger for the QX100, or are they the same?

 

[lynchy]

If you look at the pics I posted previously you can see 1 of the motors is narrower than the others. I'd assume that is the QX85 that allows a disk to be bolted on directly to the motor. I've just laced a 24V front motor with disk into a wheel, QX85. Will try to get around to running it soon. I'm concerned that it is lower powered than the bigger QX100 motor, but I don't have the same Voltage motors with both QX85 and QX100, so will be difficult to determine.

I've asked the question to the manufacturer but either the sales guy doesn't know what he's selling, thinks I'm not important enough to waste his time responding to or is scared of letting out some big company secrets Very frustrating when you need to order 5 pieces minimum to get sample and they don't clearly explain what is available or what exactly they will be sending you. Plus the fact it takes weeks for the sample to arrive. I've now ordered 10 pieces of these motors and controllers, the 1st 5 pieces arrived as 36V when I had requested 24V and ordered 5 pieces of 24V packs to match

If you can give me some pointers on how the hell I can get the side panel off these motors I'll have a look inside and forward some pics. They are very well bonded together.

I'm not down on the motors, just the little sh!t I have to deal with If you don't like answering questions about your product and don't understand the technology, get another job

 

[lynchy]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of the wheel build, but give me a break, it was my first effort ...

Hahaha... and a good first effort it is . I did exactly the same thing before I realized that it mattered where you start. If you find shorter spokes and go with a 2-cross pattern, a slightly wonky pattern around the valve is unavoidable, you'll discover...

I'm anal about putting the brand label on the tire next to the valve stem, too. I dunno why.

I've worked out where I was going wrong now. I was starting in the right place, but when I goth to the 2nd stage where you fit the trailing, non gear spokes, I was fitting them behind, rather than in front of the trailing gear side..... If that makes sense :?

Anyway, the spokes now look great but the rim looks like an egg and moves about an inch side to side :lol: Don't worry, I'm not a quitter, I'll get there in the end 8)

 

[fechter]

Generally speaking, you can't run two brushless motors off a single controller, senorless or not. I think you would need two controllers. You should be able to run two controllers off a single throttle.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I've got an email in to BMSbattery.
they offer the motors with diffrent wheel sizes and configurations for disk brakes or no disk brakes, but the order form doesn't let you specify.

we'll see what they say.

Plans right now are to stick a Cute QS100RX in the back, and the 85FX in the front of a folding bike. making a Cute 600 watt bike for less than the weight of a 500 watt 9C. I figure the 6 fet controllers will be all I need for each motor.

But that all depends on if BMSbattery can supply the 20" disk brake compatable motors I need.
If they can't let me specify, I may risk it and order just 1 rear Cute motor.

if this works out, I'm going to be stuck telling people that I have a cute little bike with Cute little motors in it.

 

[GrayKard]

I've got an email in to BMSbattery.
they offer the motors with diffrent wheel sizes and configurations for disk brakes or no disk brakes, but the order form doesn't let you specify.

we'll see what they say.

I ordered two of the "Cute" motors a few days ago. When you go through the checkout process there is a text box at one point for additional information. That's where you specify rim size, with or without disc, hall sensors or not, and also voltage and wattage.

If you forget to put some of the specs like I did they email you for clarification. I still don't have my motors though because I paid by E-check which slows the whole payment down. I should get them by the middle of next week and will report back if everything is correct with the order.

Gary

 

[Edmond]

[snip]
If you can give me some pointers on how the hell I can get the side panel off these motors I'll have a look inside and forward some pics. They are very well bonded together.
[snip]

Hi Lynchy,

I've a made special tool to turn the side panel off. See pic.
BTW1, this hub motor from Protanium (definitely not my first choice).
BTW2, the other 6 holes are intended for a Tongxin motor (again, not my first choice).

Regards, Edmond.

 

[lynchy]

Hi Edmond,

thanks for the heads up This place is an absolute hive of useful information. I didn't realise the side panels are threaded. No wonder I couldn't shift it by trying to know it straight off with a hammer and boulsther :|

That motor you've got there looks just like the "Cute" Ananda motors, but you say it's a Protanium and definitely not your first choice. Please elaborate.

Cheers
Lynchy

 

[Edmond]

Hi Edmond,

thanks for the heads up This place is an absolute hive of useful information.

You're welcome.

I didn't realise the side panels are threaded. No wonder I couldn't shift it by trying to know it straight off with a hammer and boulsther :|

At first, I was puzzled too. :?

That motor you've got there looks just like the "Cute" Ananda motors, but you say it's a Protanium and definitely not your first choice. Please elaborate.

Cheers
Lynchy

Hi Lynchy,

Same as Ananda motors? Perhaps. But have a closer look at their website and you will discover that the pics are inconsistent: In some cases the side panel is threaded, in other cases it's bolted. IOW, it stinks.

As for the Protanium motor, they are produced for some obscure Dutch one-man business (called 'Protanium'). However, the hub motor is manufactured by: Acetrikes Bicycles (Taicang) Co. and sold through an agent, Sunnex Int'l Co. in Taiwan.

Why it's not my first choice? Well, first: too noisy, second: not much power and last but not least, typically China made.
For more details, please, give me your email address and I'll send you some more pictures plus a 'soundtrack'

As for the Tongxin motor, the (interior) motor itself is of obsolete design:
1- Overlapping windings instead of concentrated windings. As a result, needless electrical losses in the far too long end-connections (so called end-windings, i.e. the copper wires outside the stator that do not contribute the useful magnetic fields).
2- The permanent magnets are glued on the rotor surface (instead of embedded) and subjected to centrifugal forces, of course with predictable results.

As I'm through with this Chinese cr@p, I'm planning to design and build a gearless hub motor by myself (though very expensive ).

Below a picture of the interior Protanium motor (rear hub).

Regards,
Edmond.

 

[drewdiller]

I'm going to chalk this one up as a semi impulse buy (I was attracted to the low weight). I ordered a Cute rear hub. I was contacted today asking for details (I thought I provided them in my ordering comments). Turns out their smallest freewheel (6 speed) fits a 141mm dropout. My dropout is 135mm, I asked a refund. I'll post back when (if?) I get it, to at least vouch that they're hopefully not too disreputable.

 

[lynchy]

Thanks for the info Edmond.

Didn't understand what you were referring to with the website. Which website do you mean?

Gotta get some sleep, it's late here in China. I'll drop you a PM and we can have a chat, be interested to hear your thoughts. I'm assessing a few different motors and maybe you could give me some pointers as I'm not so clued up on motors to be honest.

I'll try and get some of these ananda motors apart at the weekend. Be interesting to compare the different voltage, power ratings and supposedly different gear ratios.

Cheers
Lynchy

 

[Edmond]

Hi Lynchy,

I mean this website: http://www.ananda.com.cn/anandaenglish/product_list.asp?id=321
and, please, look at the small six bolts on some of the picture, while other pictures (that is, taken from a different angle) have no such bolts. Doesn't that make you suspicious? Are these picture genuine or 'borrowed' from somebody else's website?

Sleep well. Till tomorrow (or so)

Regards,
Edmond

 

[lynchy]

The photos are a bit misleading on the Ananda website. They have mixed 108 motor pics in with the 128 motor pics I think. The 108 motor seems for come in 2 forms but they both have 3 screws seduring the side panel. 1 form is wider, almost 100mm and the other is about 85mm and suited for disk brake. The pic with 6 bolts is a 128 motor I believe. I haven't had any of the 128 motors, but have a few different versions of the 108 motor.

Ananda are a proper manufacturing company, not just a shady re-seller. I've visited their factory/offices and their products seem pretty good. Unfortunately I haven't bonded with the sales guy and he's not answering me emails now. It seems unless you just want to order 10,000 pieces, take what your given and don't ask too many dificult questions, you'ree not really worth the bother.

I'm assuming that the stuff they are selling on BMSBattery and Ecity is the same Ananda motors. Either; they are not Ananda, Ananda made a special batch of special motors or the specs are misleading on the re-seller websites. I have a sneaky suspicion it's the latter. By the way, the cost price of the 128 motor is about 25% less than th equivalent 108 motor. I don't know what they are selling the for. I bought them from the manufacturer 8)

I'll get the covers off some of these motors at the weekend, now I know how to do it, cheers for that :wink: and post a few pics.

 

[drewdiller]

I ended up getting a response within 24 hours (several responses, actually) from someone representing ecitypower after ordering at bmsbattery.

They wanted to ask some "technique" questions (I assume that meant "technical"), which basically boiled down to which hub I wanted. We had this go-round that sounded like "we have disc compatible hubs at 135mm, but if you want a 6, 7 or 8 speed freewheel, it's going to be wider than that".

I think it is as follows:

5-speed, attach your own freewheel (we will see): 135mm
6-speed: 141mm
7-speed: 144mm
8-speed: 147mm

Will post again when I receive the unit.

 

[lynchy]

I've had a Chinese friend contact the Ananda sales guy today and hopefully I can get some better information from them. Will let you know what I find out. By the way, what are BMS and Ecity charging for these motors?