CUTE geared hub motors from bmsbattery/ecitypower

Thanks for cracking those open for a look inside Lynchy. Looks like a very efficient use of space inside them. I would also like to see the tool you made with specs for it in case I want to open mine too.

Now those are ones you got directly from Ananda right? If so, I hope the "Cute" versions from BMSbattery are like those, and not a cheaper version not as well made.


Drunkskunk said:
looking through the order forms for these things, it looks like the 100mm version is rated up to 350 watts, while the 85mm is rated at 250 watts. It also appears that both versions are available in Disc mounts, for both front and rear. Is that how it is, or am I reading their pages wrong?
Click to expand...
That looks right to me, but don't be surprised if you order one and then get an email saying they can't match the specs you requested. Seems they still aren't sure of all the actual in's and out's of these motors they just started offering.

Gary
 
lynchy said:
Russell and others, I've managed to get inside 3 of these motors today; 26"-24V-85mm front with disk, 26"-36V-100mm without disk and 20" 24V-100mm without disk. All these motors are the 108 type. Had to make up a special tool but got there in the end. Here are some pics to get you started. I don't have my camera so I used the webcam on my laptop.

The narrower, with disk front motor (85mm) has very different gears and the motor itself is physically smaller than the 100mm motor. The gears are partly helical on the 85mm motor and straight cut on the 100mm motor. Also compared the high speed motor for 20" rim (24V) and a 26" rim motor (36V) and they had identical gears. I have a rear 24V 26" rim, 100mm motor also. Will pull that apart and see if the gears differ on that model.

Will try to get some better pics up once I've got my camera back. Any more info required, just ask :)
Click to expand...

Lynchy,

Very interesting but I don't understand the purpose of the second set of smaller planetary gears. In the geared motors I have the center SUN gear on the motor shaft drives 3 nylon PLANETARY gears which in turn drives the outer RING gear and the wheel.

-R
 
Russell said:
Very interesting but I don't understand the purpose of the second set of smaller planetary gears. In the geared motors I have the center SUN gear on the motor shaft drives 3 nylon PLANETARY gears which in turn drives the outer RING gear and the wheel.

-R
Click to expand...
Looks like a compound gear. the small motor gear drives the bigger side of that nylon gear, dropping the ratio by "X", Since the big side is attached to the little side, you have another reduction of "Y" and then the reduction from the little side turning the ring gear with a reduction of "Z"

Really an ingenious design. Hope it works.
 
There are more than 2X number of nylon teeth than with a non-compound gear, so better heat distribution and longer gear life? The effective gear ratio is the same as if the sun were driving the smaller planetaries directly.
 
I just can't see from the pictures what the stacked smaller gears are driving.

In this pic we see the sun gear driving the larger set of planetary gears.

cute motor 008.jpg

In other geared motors those larger planetary gears drive the outter ring gear but here it looks like the smaller gears on top are doing that(???)




-R
 
Russell said:
In other geared motors those larger planetary gears drive the outter ring gear but here it looks like the smaller gears on top are doing that(???)
Click to expand...

Yep, there isn't enough room to run the ring gear off the large planetaries. That keeps the overall diameter of the hub small.
 
^Ahh yes, so this also strengthens the primary/planetary gear interface. For the expense of the extra hub width, you get less chance of gear butter, or at least a smaller diameter hub for the same power output.
 
GrayKard said:
[snip]
I would also like to see the tool you made with specs for it in case I want to open mine too.
[snip]
Gary
Click to expand...
Hey man, look here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13998&p=210504#p210504
 
You're quite right about the compound gears. I'm told the gear ratio is 9:1 whereas a standard geared hub motor is about 5:1. Didn't consider the reduced heating of the gears by doing it that way. I'd imagine that the higher gear ratio means the motor spins faster for a given speed and so can be reduced in size. They're certainly nicely engineered.

I was using the 85mm motor today, front, with disk. It's a 24V motor and I was running it as 36V. It does about 20mph on the flat with no pedalling. No load speed is about 30mph. This motor is a 26" wheel type. I'd say the 85mm motor is a little quieter than the 100mm motor but I haven't run them back to back so can't be sure. Should be able to give an idea of any differences in power once I have managed to get the rear motor into a bike as that is a 24V, 100mm type.

Regarding some of your comments. I would say that the 100mm motor cannot be disk type when front mounted. It will not fit into a lot of forks, let alone with a disk fitted. I have a 100mm motor that has a threaded section for a disk carrier but it's very wide. I've now run an M12 * 1.25 dye down it and will take off 1 of the spacer sleeves. See pics below. Need to extend the flats on it before fitting it into a bike. It may need to be single speed due to the limited space for a freewheel.

Here's some more pics:

cute motor 029.jpg


I'm gonna have to use the web cam in future till I can buy a new camera :( Some f**king c**t stole my girlfriends bag today with camera, quite a bit of money, ID card and bank cards. Ripped it off her shoulder as they went past on a scooter :evil: :evil: :evil: Lucky I wasn't there, she's away visiting her family. They'd have had a big problem if I'd have got hold of them :evil:

If anyone's interested I can hook something up on these motors and also have Ananda controllers with PAS display/controller. I've got a few spares but not so many, will be ordering a few more in the not too distant future. Can sort out something on ebay or we can just have a skype and sort something out via paypal. Also got some Bafangs on the way very soon. Was in their factory last thursday and they were very friendly and flexible. Custom motors are not out of the question either :wink: Can also get Puma motor. I'll go check the shipping costs to US and let you know if anyone's interested. I wasn't really planning to ship direct from here but if anyone's interested, I'll try to help :wink:
 
Hi Lynchy,

Thx for the pictures. But I'm also surprised that they look the exactly same as the Protanium motors. Well, almost exactly the same, as the latter have no Hall sensors (though provisions has been made to install them).
Do I understand you well that the smaller motor is equipped with helical gears, while the larger one has strait spur gears?
At least, this is the case with my motors.
Also, the helical planet gears are supported by small axial needle bearings (not visible on the picture). The sun gear is supported by an additional tiny axial ball bearing, see picture. Same as the Cute motor?
As for the reduction ratio, I got 8.75 : 1. (the sun gear has 12 teeth, the planet gears 26 respectively 35 teeth and the ring gear 78 teeth)

Regarding the different motor sizes (250 vs 350W) I wonder whether you only can get the larger one with strait gears and the smaller one with helical gears (that is the impression I get from Protanium). Could you shed some more light on this issue, please?
Also, what do the 'Cute guys' say about this?

Regards,
Edmond.

edit: I'm sorry to hear what those ****** AH's have done to your girlfriend.
 
lynchy said:
[snip]
Regarding some of your comments. I would say that the 100mm motor cannot be disk type when front mounted. It will not fit into a lot of forks, let alone with a disk fitted.
[snip]
Click to expand...

I had the same trouble with my '100mm' motor. Actually, it was 108mm wide. However, after some 'machining', it does fit into a 102mm fork. See picture at mark A.
 

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Edmond said:
Hi Lynchy,

Thx for the pictures. But I'm also surprised that they look the exactly same as the Protanium motors. Well, almost exactly the same, as the latter have no Hall sensors (though provisions has been made to install them).
Do I understand you well that the smaller motor is equipped with helical gears, while the larger one has strait spur gears?
At least, this is the case with my motors.
Also, the helical planet gears are supported by small axial needle bearings (not visible on the picture). The sun gear is supported by an additional tiny axial ball bearing, see picture. Same as the Cute motor?
As for the reduction ratio, I got 8.75 : 1. (the sun gear has 12 teeth, the planet gears 26 respectively 35 teeth and the ring gear 78 teeth)

Regarding the different motor sizes (250 vs 350W) I wonder whether you only can get the larger one with strait gears and the smaller one with helical gears (that is the impression I get from Protanium). Could you shed some more light on this issue, please?
Also, what do the 'Cute guys' say about this?

Regards,
Edmond.

edit: I'm sorry to hear what those ****** AH's have done to your girlfriend.
Click to expand...


Hi Edmond,

that pic you posted looks exactly like what I've got here motors and yes you are right, the larger motor has straight cut gears and the smaller 1 has helical cut gears. I didn't do any teeth counting for my 9:1 figure, it was just what I was told by Ananda.

On the helical gear, the sun gear extends out to the cover and has a bearing, just like your pic. The Helical gears will produce an outward thrust on the sun gear and inward thrust on the planetary gears. Well I assume that is the case, as the helical planetary gears do not have anything to stop them pushing out. The bearings may have been on the cover in my pics, but they look the same as your pic.

The straight cut sun gear does not extend out to the cover as you can see in the pics. The planet gears have a small rubber stopper to keep them lightly pushed down in position.

Hopefully my girlfriend will get over it. She's tough, she'll be ok. Her and the rest of the family will be wishing a slow painful on those involved, so hopefully there wishes will come true :x

Thankfully they only caused a major upset and some inconvenience :( Thank God nothing happened to her. Maybe it's Karma coming back on me.... I went a bit crazy on a guy that pulled in front of me as I was going along on my bike this morning on the way to School. It's very standard over in China. If you're in a car, everyone on foot or any vehicle smaller than yours should just move out of your way and you always have right of way. Really pisses me off and have to contend with it day in day out on my fairly long e bike commute across Shanghai. Don't even get me started on the cyclists and motorcyclists, they're even worse, but in a different way :twisted:
 
Edmond said:
lynchy said:
[snip]
Regarding some of your comments. I would say that the 100mm motor cannot be disk type when front mounted. It will not fit into a lot of forks, let alone with a disk fitted.
[snip]
Click to expand...

I had the same trouble with my '100mm' motor. Actually, it was 108mm wide. However, after some 'machining', it does fit into a 102mm fork. See picture at mark A.
Click to expand...

Edmond,

how did you modify the axle on the motor. I might do the same on 1 of the 85mm motors so that I can more easily fit it into a smaller than standard drop out.
 
Hi Lynchy,

First, I dismantled the left axis. Then I simply removed some metal on a lathe. And finally I extended the two flat sides by means of a file.
It's really simple, though you need a lathe, or someone in the neighborhood who has one.

Good luck.
Edmond.
 
Got a little more info on a 24V 85mm motor. Done a little testing today and found that the motor is giving about 10rpm/V, so 250rpm on 24V LiFePO4 and 400rpm on 36V LiFePO4.

I used the motor today with 24V battery and the performance was rather weak to be honest. This motor is supposed to be a 24V, 26" rim type. It was only pulling about 24kph, so less than 15mph without pedalling. With 36V battery it was about 33kph, so about 20mph. The acceleration is ok at 36V. It's a bit high geared for a 26" rim IMO. But should be ok with a dual motor setup or fitted into a small rim, if run at 36V. The motor got a little warm at 36V but nothing to cause any concern IMO.

I'll try to get a rear motor into a rim tomorrow, if I can get hold of the right length spokes.
 
lynchy said:
Got a little more info on a 24V 85mm motor. Done a little testing today and found that the motor is giving about 10rpm/V, so 250rpm on 24V LiFePO4 and 400rpm on 36V LiFePO4.

I used the motor today with 24V battery and the performance was rather weak to be honest. This motor is supposed to be a 24V, 26" rim type. It was only pulling about 24kph, so less than 15mph without pedalling. With 36V battery it was about 33kph, so about 20mph. The acceleration is ok at 36V. It's a bit high geared for a 26" rim IMO. But should be ok with a dual motor setup or fitted into a small rim, if run at 36V. The motor got a little warm at 36V but nothing to cause any concern IMO.

I'll try to get a rear motor into a rim tomorrow, if I can get hold of the right length spokes.
Click to expand...

Just wondered what's the max current on the controllers you are using for the tests above? Also do the Cutes freewheel when no power is applied?

-R
 
Russell said:
lynchy said:
Got a little more info on a 24V 85mm motor. Done a little testing today and found that the motor is giving about 10rpm/V, so 250rpm on 24V LiFePO4 and 400rpm on 36V LiFePO4.

I used the motor today with 24V battery and the performance was rather weak to be honest. This motor is supposed to be a 24V, 26" rim type. It was only pulling about 24kph, so less than 15mph without pedalling. With 36V battery it was about 33kph, so about 20mph. The acceleration is ok at 36V. It's a bit high geared for a 26" rim IMO. But should be ok with a dual motor setup or fitted into a small rim, if run at 36V. The motor got a little warm at 36V but nothing to cause any concern IMO.

I'll try to get a rear motor into a rim tomorrow, if I can get hold of the right length spokes.
Click to expand...

Just wondered what's the max current on the controllers you are using for the tests above? Also do the Cutes freewheel when no power is applied?

-R
Click to expand...

At 24V it's a small Ananda controller, 15A. At 36V, the Ananda controller was current limiting when on the road. I used a bigger, 25A controller for use under load and it is produced the above figures with no load. Yes they freewheel but you still feel a bit of drag.
 
dear lynchy;

hi from france,

i'd read your post about motor hub, i will be interested by 2 motors , one bafang 8fun front wheel whith disk with the max power possible, and the rear bafang _fun climber whith disk, could you make me an offer for this 2 motors and by the way a good shi




Best regards
laurent
GrayKard said:
Does anyone know the spoke count on the Q-F-100SX 250/350 watt 108mm diameter Cute motors? I would email ecitypower but I know I won't get a reply until Sunday night. I was hoping to get some rims ordered today. Thanks.

Gary
Click to expand...
 
Easyvelo,

I've got some samples on order from Bafang including the new Bafang front motor, QSWXK which is a 250W at 36V. I've ordered with hall sensors but generally comes without. The BPM climber comes in 250W-36V, 350W-36V, 500W-36V and 750W-48V. I'm not so sure about the 750W, they were a little reluctant to let me have 1 for testing. I have a 250W Climber, 500W climber, SWXH rear 250W-36V and QSWXK 250W-36V samples on order. Also have a few models of controllers, supplied and built to their specs, with a nice integrated E-Bus control system. Should have them by next weekend I hope

Basically Bafang have just taken standard controllers, put them into nicely finished black cases and did a nice job using nice multicore, good quality connectors. They have a single connector and muticore going from the E-Bus (brakes, throttle, PAS controller, throttle and small PCB with some dip switches for controls which I'm not yet sure about) to controller. The larger controllers are narrow and long, so they can be fitted more discreetly to a bike. I have 2 15A controllers (1 with hall sensor, 1 without), 1 20A controller with hall and 1 25A controler with hall. They're a little more expensive than buying the bits from the manufacturers directly but peronally, I think they're a nice piece of kit and if I don't go with them, I'll be trying to do something similar myself, using IP67 rated connectors and better enclosures for the controllers etc. The long and thin controller is a good option IMO plus it's so obvious, so why don't we see it more?....

I haven't got any Bafangs to sell right now but will have some in a few weeks if you can wait. I would have thought I could offer them at about 110USD for the QSWXK and Climber at about 145USD for the 500W if I get a big order in as I expect to and I sell them direct from China. The smaller wattage climbers are maybe 5USD cheaper. Shipping is about 11USD per KG to USA and about 14USD/kg to UK so I would imagine about the same to France. I need to double check this shipping so please do not hold me to it and maybe can even get a little cheaper as I haven't looked into direct shipping so much.

The only problem is that I will be buying them for export to UK so you do not have to pay Chinese VAT and not sure how I can take some from the shipment and send directly. I'm not really set up to sell directly from China right now, but of course I can if there's a need :wink: I'm presently trying to get some good products together that I am happy with and get some comeplete e bikes plus e bike parts to UK for say March 2010. Been testing stuff for months already and things don't always happen so quickly in China....

Drop me a PM and I can give you a bit more info and I'll do my best to sort something out for you :wink:
Lynchy
 
How well do the sensorless motors work? Are they still instant start, or do you need to roll the bike a little to get them running?

Also, how is the noise when running the sensorless? I understand that other motors tend to make more noise when run without hall sensors. Does this hold true to the Cute motors?
 
I spoke with the Ananda engineers today and was told the following but do not have first hand experience as all the motors I've used have all been with hall sensors:
- big motors start smootly from standing start without hall sensors.
- small motors are not so smooth without hall sensors from standing start.
- you lose some efficiency without hall sensors. Ananda engineer said 2-3%, another engineer said 5%.

I've ordered all my bafang samples with hall sensors and have small controllers both with and without hall sensors so I'll be able to check back to back to see for myself. Will also be able to check the cutes motors without halls, once the new controllers arrive. I'll let you know my findings. I've got a CA on the way too, so will not have to go around with DMMs tie wrapped to the bike anymore :)

The Ananda motors come with whatever number of spokes was specified, they're made to order. I would've thought 36 spokes, but who knows...
 
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