CYC Photon Gen 2?

[neptronix]

CYC made exactly the right design choice by going with outrunner for the Photon - for me. Absolutely perfect. YMMV.

TBH I'm surprised they listened to all the people complaining about the Photon power output, instead of just getting the Proton out there and keeping more people happy.

I have a lightest.bike mid drive here with an inrunner, and a higher pole count and reduction ratio.
The drive unit's weight is half that of the photon. The design sheds heat excellently, and you could run it at 900W constant it would hang out at 45-50c temps, indicating it can take a LOT more power.

I also hear a lot of reports of the CYC Photon gen 1 going into thermal throttling on what looks like wimpy power levesl.

Yeah maybe you could put 2000w into it but a huge portion of that is just gonna make heat that the design cannot shed.

Based on this, i would say no, this outrunner setup in the CYC Photon gen 1 was far from an optimal design. Power, efficiency, and thermals matter. I think of the gen1 as a BBS02 in a suit.

 

[raylo32]

"Reports"? You won't get one from me. I just did another 30 mile ride with 2400 feet of climbing averaging about 22 MPH with no throttling. Granted that was on assist 3, but that's pretty much as fast as I can go with the gearing and cadence. Now if I were to weigh 300 pounds and try to do that on assist 5, maybe it would throttle?? But for most of us this just isn't an issue. I still look forward to the gen 2 improved cooling so I can have a little more fun on throttle. But for just riding the current design works well.

Let us know when the install puzzles are solved and that Lightest can actually get ridden. It's going on, what, a year or so?

I have a lightest.bike mid drive here with an inrunner, and a higher pole count and reduction ratio.
The drive unit's weight is half that of the photon. The design sheds heat excellently, and you could run it at 900W constant it would hang out at 50c temps, indicating it can take a LOT more power.

I also hear a lot of reports of the CYC Photon gen 1 throttling on stock power levels, sometimes a few hundred watts below that... and this

Based on this, i would say no, this outrunner setup in the CYC Photon gen 1 was far from an optimal design. Power, efficiency, and thermals matter. I think of the gen1 as a BBS02 in a suit.

 

[neptronix]

That would be a 1.5% grade which isn't much of a challenge.. and you had the power turned down..
This is a use case where a 350w geared hub motor would work great.

I wouldn't use this as a comparison point for any mid drive's performance, efficiency, or thermal characteristics.

Install puzzles have been solved for me for over a year. Now you know..

 

[raylo32]

Average grade means little. This ride had short to medium grades up to 10%. Long grades maybe 4%.

That would be a 1.5% grade which isn't much of a challenge.. and you had the power turned down..
This is a use case where a 350w geared hub motor would work great.

I wouldn't use this as a comparison point for any mid drive's performance, efficiency, or thermal characteristics.

Install puzzles have been solved for me for over a year. Now you know..

 

[pomah]

No. Inrunner means better cooling BUT a larger motor for the same torque. That's due to the rotor size and then having the stator around it. Seems that the Photon 2 will be both larger and heavier than the V1 and CYC have indicated this.

CYC made exactly the right design choice by going with outrunner for the Photon - for me. Absolutely perfect. YMMV.

TBH I'm surprised they listened to all the people complaining about the Photon power output, instead of just getting the Proton out there and keeping more people happy.

And TBH I don't get why people were complaining anyway - the Photon beats the pants of almost all OTS ebikes especially emtb for power and torque even when run conservatively. It is certainly illegal where I live and how much power do you really need?

Torque in a middrive is more than just the electric motor, an inrunner that spins faster could generate similar torque with a different gearing, so once again, not sure why you say it is bigger, but there is no point in speculating, a more efficient design benefits all, lets see what they create.

 

[hindesite]

Torque in a middrive is more than just the electric motor, an inrunner that spins faster could generate similar torque with a different gearing, so once again, not sure why you say it is bigger, but there is no point in speculating, a more efficient design benefits all, lets see what they create.

Torque "at the rotor" of course. For a sensible comparison you have to hold some parameters steady.

 

[hindesite]

I also hear a lot of reports of the CYC Photon gen 1 going into thermal throttling on what looks like wimpy power levesl.

Yeah maybe you could put 2000w into it but a huge portion of that is just gonna make heat that the design cannot shed.

Based on this, i would say no, this outrunner setup in the CYC Photon gen 1 was far from an optimal design. Power, efficiency, and thermals matter. I think of the gen1 as a BBS02 in a suit.

I've heard maybe a couple of people complain about it on these forums, and more people then quoting those people. Yeah, many reports...

I think there are a bunch of people (especially Youtubers) who expect the Photon to be like the bigger motors and look at them as cheap way to make an over powered, illegal, motorbike with pedals. They expect to be able to ride around using just the throttle all day. Of course these guys are going to be disappointed. They make a couple of videos (maybe) then move on to the next fad.

Meanwhile, I've been riding my Photon for 2+ years, have maybe encountered thermal throttling once, possibly (I'm not sure) and I just could not be happier. If you use the Photon for what it is intended - as a DIY version for standard OTS emtb - is it almost perfect. Almost all my riding is backcountry and offroad. It is perfect for that. Example below. Temps included.

This bike holds multiple KOMs on Strava in my area. For example, the climb shown in this video, KOM is 3:45, next fastest is 5:19 with several riders in the 5+ mark. If you think there is a need for more power than this, you are definitely using it wrong.

 

[raylo32]

Yeh, you get 300 pound non-pedaling youtubers trying to climb Pike Peak in the summer and it's gonna overheat. But as you say, used as intended I can't make it overheat, nor can I use more power. I am already spun out on assist level 2 or 3. If I can do no sweat throttle runs to the store to shop with Gen 2 that will be a bonus.

I've heard maybe a couple of people complain about it on these forums, and more people then quoting those people. Yeah, many reports...

I think there are a bunch of people (especially Youtubers) who expect the Photon to be like the bigger motors and look at them as cheap way to make an over powered, illegal, motorbike with pedals. They expect to be able to ride around using just the throttle all day. Of course these guys are going to be disappointed. They make a couple of videos (maybe) then move on to the next fad.

Meanwhile, I've been riding my Photon for 2+ years, have maybe encountered thermal throttling once, possibly (I'm not sure) and I just could not be happier. If you use the Photon for what it is intended - as a DIY version for standard OTS emtb - is it almost perfect. Almost all my riding is backcountry and offroad. It is perfect for that. Example below.

 

[hindesite]

nor can I use more power. I am already spun out on assist level 2 or 3.

My problem is more about the front wheel steering in a more advisory capacity, some of the rides I do are insanely steep. I would have enjoyed riding them on my trials bike back in the day, but MTB is a little different (and so am I :-( )

If I can do no sweat throttle runs to the store to shop with Gen 2 that will be a bonus.

Ugh, definitely not taking my bike to the store. Round here it would get stolen.

 

[raylo32]

Yeah, I have had that problem keeping the front wheel down even with pedal MTBs on the real steep stuff. Some bike geometries are better than others for that.

I've taken mine down to Lowes once or twice but walked around with it. Otherwise need to keep it in sight, even if locked.

My problem is more about the front wheel steering in a more advisory capacity, some of the rides I do are insanely steep. I would have enjoyed riding them on my trials bike back in the day, but MTB is a little different (and so am I :-( )


Ugh, definitely not taking my bike to the store. Round here it would get stolen.

 

[scianiac]

At some point the overheating thing is just a matter of how they designed it, they could have just set a lower power limit and then you could never overheat it but I would rather have it have the higher power limit for intermittent use. That being said an enclosed outrunner is just a bad cooling design, that's just physics, metal is more thermally conductive than air.

My problem is more about the front wheel steering in a more advisory capacity, some of the rides I do are insanely steep. I would have enjoyed riding them on my trials bike back in the day, but MTB is a little different (and so am I :-( )

Ah that's the fun part, balancing that weight so I have just enough weight on the front to steer but no more so the back has all the traction I can give it. I find the issue is not the weight balance though, it's either loose terrain or more commonly step-ups from roots or rocks that are hard to maintain traction through.

 

[raylo32]

Whether or not it is a perfect design isn't the only criterion here. It seems to be plenty good enough for many of us in our use cases. If the new Gen 2 is more capable, that will be great, but if it comes at additional cost and/or with additional size and weight that might not be worth it. I guess we'll see.

Edit: The teaser also promised better serviceability and spare parts availability for Gen 2. That could make a difference and maybe justify a small premium.

At some point the overheating thing is just a matter of how they designed it, they could have just set a lower power limit and then you could never overheat it but I would rather have it have the higher power limit for intermittent use. That being said an enclosed outrunner is just a bad cooling design, that's just physics, metal is more thermally conductive than air.

 

[linklemming]

I wonder why you ended up going mid drives exclusively? I am running hubs + VESC controllers (with custom code for torque sensing) and am generally very happy with them, but I want to try something new, looking to buy either the TSDZ8 OSF or CYC Photon V2.

Mostly because my primary focus these days is more offroad and MTB.

I built a Grin System (52V CA3, Torquesensor, Phaserunner and GMAC 10T) and rode it for a few years. At that time I also had a 52V BBSHD setup. Much preferred the Grin due to the torque sensing. I did alot of gravel rides with it because many MTB trails were closed to ebikes.

I tried the CYC Photon at 52V about two years ago (temporarily replaced the Grin) and concluded that thermally it was equivalent to the Grin setup and ran with that for a year. The Grin was slightly better on the flats though (less heat for the same speed).

Lots of local trails have opened up in the last two years so the focus has been more mid-drive. Many rides have steep sections that are just better suited to a mid-drive.

Recently tried a ToSeven DM01 and absolutely love it. While the torque sensing isnt on par with the Photon, its good enough for the rides I do on that setup and better than any other DIY torque sensing I have tried.

So these days, my DIY setup is two mid-drive setups (Soma Juice with BBSHD and DM01). I do prefer the more nimbleness of having the motor low and in the middle of the bike as opposed to being in the rear.

I am in the process of building up another 52V DIY ebike which will be a Surly Bridge Club with the GMAC initially and then a 9C RH212(with statorade). This ebike with the RH212 will be a high power project. I will most likely try a Grin All Axle motor on it at some point.

For around town, hub drives are just much better especially with a throttle.

 

[linklemming]

A service kit would be REALLY useful. Try getting the recommended lubricants for the Photon in anything less than industrial quantities, down here in NZ it is extremely difficult. In particular, lubricant for Spragg clutches.

When I ordered a new sprag clutch from CYC, it came with a packet of sprag clutch grease. I found a link at the facebook CYC users group.

I bought some Sprag Clutch grease at ebikemotorrepair.com. Not sure if its the 'official CYC' stuff though.

 

[hindesite]

When I ordered a new sprag clutch from CYC, it came with a packet of sprag clutch grease. I found a link at the facebook CYC users group.

I bought some Sprag Clutch grease at ebikemotorrepair.com. Not sure if its the 'official CYC' stuff though.

CYC suggest Alvania RS, which is out of date, the Gadus S2 V100 2 is the replacement so you have the right stuff. The only other greases they recommend are all Kluber. Not really helpful for a lot of the world.

Thanks for the link, the issue I have is shipping to NZ is frustratingly expensive, especially for a product or equivalent that should be available locally.

 

[pomah]

Torque "at the rotor" of course. For a sensible comparison you have to hold some parameters steady.

That is the whole concept if an inrunner is a higher rpm, that could be beneficial for an ebike design, just comparing a motor to another with torque at the rotor not looking at other qualites is kinda weird. But you have very certain about your thing, I will await the spec sheet and see what is what.

 

[raylo32]

Here is a US source for the Gadus grease. $18 for a 400g tube vs $5 for 10 ml at that other link. Unfortunately shipping costs a little more than the product but not too bad here. Amazon also has it but apparently only in 10 tube packs for $60 or in huge barrels.

Order Shell Gadus (S2 V100 2) 400g Grease - CNC Specialty Store

Stocking distributor of Shell Gadus S2 V100-2 (400g). CNC Specialty Store is a distributor of Shell, Mobil, Kluber, Kyodo Yushi, THK and more. 414-881-4493

cnc-specialty-store.com

 

[pomah]

I found some more pictures here, an image of the new display here as well: CYC Photon Gen 2

 

[phobos]

Looks the same as the display found in Bonnell bikes.

 

[raylo32]

I just got a notification from Electrify that these are now available. IDK why but I wasn't expecting them to drop this soon. I'll probably get one and either swap it onto my current Photon mule or perhaps do a new build on a more road friendly (and faster) 700c bike. I need to research those some, I guess. Probably an alloy flat bar hybrid or maybe a gravel bike converted to flat bar.... or I may just try it on my existing gravel bike after figuring out a way to mount the display on drop bars.

 

[hindesite]

I just got a notification from Electrify that these are now available. IDK why but I wasn't expecting them to drop this soon. I'll probably get one and either swap it onto my current Photon mule or perhaps do a new build on a more road friendly (and faster) 700c bike. I need to research those some, I guess. Probably an alloy flat bar hybrid or maybe a gravel bike converted to flat bar.... or I may just try it on my existing gravel bike after figuring out a way to mount the display on drop bars.

Really looking forward to any kind of informed review - if CYC just hand these out to some of the people as they did last time, almost nothing useful was learned. There were some shockingly incompetent people trying to install and ride the first gen Photon.

 

[raylo32]

It really is hard to get a good technical review. The spec power and torque between Gen 1 and 2 are similar and I expect them to subjectively ride almost the same, with the main difference that Gen 2 supposedly has better cooling and will be able to run higher power longer. How high and how long? Who knows. But without controlled instrumented tests it would be hard to show or prove that. And like for any new product you will always find some people with unknown motives who are out to trash it, so some fat guy will get one and go full throttle up a mountain on a 100 degree day until it dies and then tell everyone how bad it is. Like some folks did here last time. LOL.

Really looking forward to any kind of informed review - if CYC just hand these out to some of the people as they did last time, almost nothing useful was learned. There were some shockingly incompetent people trying to install and ride the first gen Photon.

 

[hindesite]

It really is hard to get a good technical review. The spec power and torque between Gen 1 and 2 are similar and I expect them to subjectively ride almost the same, with the main difference that Gen 2 supposedly has better cooling and will be able to run higher power longer. How high and how long? Who knows. But without controlled instrumented tests it would be hard to show or prove that. And like for any new product you will always find some people with unknown motives who are out to trash it, so some fat guy will get one and go full throttle up a mountain on a 100 degree day until it dies and then tell everyone how bad it is. Like some folks did here last time. LOL.

I was thinking more about the guy (Electric Vehicle Space) who didn't realise that the Photon didn't have enough clearance to fit in a carbon frame BB - and AFAIK he still hasn't produced a review despite teasing some new frame that he refused to give the details on. There was the guy who fell off during the first test ride because he didn't know how to change gear - and he STILL published the video. Never got the stage of any kind of useful review, let alone technical. I think Surronster installed it, did a few wheelies, smashed the display and left it at that.

Hey - CYC, if you are reading this...

 

[hindesite]

I found some more pictures here, an image of the new display here as well: CYC Photon Gen 2

Still not on CYC website unfortunately.

My thoughts:

So CAN bus may be useful for extra displays, The round display looks quite good, my SW102 is fading as it ages, not sure if just due to use or if UV is a factor. Same happened with my OLED smartwatch. What else will CAN bus be good for?

72V - no surprises there, since CYC largest capacity battery is only available in 72V. Still bugly though... and still not appropriately certified AFAIK.

Looks significantly bigger than the original Photon, and looks like it is assembled differently with a easier to remove end cover.

Looks like there is a bit more room between the motor and the shaft, so might accommodate cables under BB, or maybe even some carbon frames with bulky BBs if you use a PF30 eccentric spacer.

Moved from pigtails to connector on the motor casing - probably easier to make waterproof, and less connectors. Pity, because I thought the pigtail system on the original was flexible and easy to route.

May have a high Q factor since CYC have rationalised BB choices. Q factor previously varied depending on the BB kit you ordered, smaller BBs had lower Q factor. The original Photon had a 200mm Q factor for 83mm BBs, and 230mm for 120mm BBs. If the new Q factor for the Photon gen 2 is 230mm, I'm out. That's insane. Have to see how CYC have approached this, maybe you still have to order a 120mm specific kit with a longer shaft like for the original. Hope so.

Should have offered 155mm cranks. Even some of the OTS ebike manufacturers are finally figuring this out.

 

[raylo32]

Electrify lists 4 versions, 68/73/83mm, BB92, 100mm, 120mm. They list 2 displays, neither one is the round one. SW102 standard and Intuition display optional for extra $105. I don't get the short crank thing. I am a taller 175mm guy. 155mm is like Trix... for kids.

Here's the link to the listing. Already showing sold out.

CYC Photon Gen 2

The CYC Photon Gen 2 mid-drive motor is the latest mid-drive motor from CYC Motors. Stays within legal limits (750W)

electrifybike.com