12p3phPMDC
1 kW
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2009
- Messages
- 462
That configuration gives the largest reduction right?
Cyclone 1200W commuter build
- Thread starter glv
- Start date
glv
10 W
kentlim26 said:
$30 is ok, although free would be preferable. I hope you get more miles out yours than I did. I guess $0.08/mile compares favorably to driving a car, but swapping out drivetrain components every 3-4 weeks sounds pretty inconvenient (not to mention wasteful) to me. These components should last at very least 10 times as long IMHO, provided it really is rated for the output of the motor. A complete riding season would be nice.
glv
10 W
Miles said:
yep, this is right on
lesdit
100 W
The $30 is a special deal, I fear. The list price for the part is about $140 if I remember correctly.
They should at least sell the gear parts cheap, as a gesture of good faith.
They should at least sell the gear parts cheap, as a gesture of good faith.
glv said:
glv
10 W
lesdit said:
Yes, I'm sure it's a deal vs new (the $30 is covering the shipping from Taiwan to the US) and more than likely ends up being cheaper than sending motor+gearbox back to Taiwan for repair. Probably cheaper for them also since they don't have to mess around to tear down and rebuild my gearbox.
I asked paco if they'd just send me a new set of planet gears, but he didn't offer that as a choice, only sending the whole drive unit back for repair (shipping there at my expense) or paying shipping to me for a spare gearbox. It's a nice little gearbox, I hope the new one is more durable.
I've been a little down on this kit lately on this thread, but paco has been very responsive and the outcome is probably the best I could hope for from any mail-order company, domestic or otherwise. If it hadn't broken in the first place I'd have nothing bad to say at all.
Hi Glv,
Sorry to hear about your gears.
My 1200 Cyclone has been fine for about 400 miles so-far. When it was new I opened up the planetary box and found the grease inside to be very thick so that it would get pushed away into the corners and stay there not lubricating the moving parts.
My solution was to pour in some EP90 gear oil and mix the grease with it so it became less viscous. I thought would allow the lube to flow around the gears better.
Sorry to hear about your gears.
My 1200 Cyclone has been fine for about 400 miles so-far. When it was new I opened up the planetary box and found the grease inside to be very thick so that it would get pushed away into the corners and stay there not lubricating the moving parts.
My solution was to pour in some EP90 gear oil and mix the grease with it so it became less viscous. I thought would allow the lube to flow around the gears better.
glv
10 W
Burtie said:
That sounds pretty similar to what I found in my gearbox also, kinda like cake frosting all along the edges. I'll probably try relubing the new unit in a similar fashion. It's encouraging it's working out for you so far.
glv
10 W
GTA1 said:
Straight gear oil may work pretty well if the gearbox is sealed to the motor bearing block with some RTV. The only place it might leak is at the motor shaft bearing seal. That seal seemed to keep the original grease in pretty well, but I'm a little nervous about accidentally filling up the motor housing with gear lube. If the oil level could be kept low enough that it wouldn't reach the motor shaft (say 1/3 full) then it would probably be perfect.
Ok, it's official: I'm going to try this
glv
10 W
The new gearbox arrived Tuesday. I didn't swap out the grease like I planned, just added a little gear lube (maybe a tablespoon), RTVd it, and bolted it all back together. I set off yesterday for the first ride and my grip shifter died :? Swapped that out last night and did my normal commute this morning.
Right away it was noticeable how much smoother the new gearbox was. None of the vibration through the frame or extra noise. It was very nice. By the end of my commute (a very short 4 miles) I thought it might be making a bit more noise than it had at first, but I couldn't be sure. After riding back at lunch it was obvious it was making more noise and a little vibration, though not nearly as bad as the old gearbox ended up.
I am concerned that, in sealing the gearbox to the motor bearing block, the RTV may have gooed out into the gearbox itself and contaminated the works. If so, this is most likely how the original failed also and I am a total doofus. If everything did get contaminated maybe I will be lucky and cleaning it all up and relubing will stop the damage, though I am not optimistic on this.
The other possibility is the input/sun gear from the motor was worn in a non-obvious way from the beating it took with the first gearbox and it is rapidly wearing down the planets on the new gearbox. I do not think this is the case, but it's the only other reasonable explanation.
I'll tear it down again over the weekend, see if anything is obviously wrong, and totally clean it all up. No RTV between the gearbox and bearing block this time when reassembling, though.
Right away it was noticeable how much smoother the new gearbox was. None of the vibration through the frame or extra noise. It was very nice. By the end of my commute (a very short 4 miles) I thought it might be making a bit more noise than it had at first, but I couldn't be sure. After riding back at lunch it was obvious it was making more noise and a little vibration, though not nearly as bad as the old gearbox ended up.
I am concerned that, in sealing the gearbox to the motor bearing block, the RTV may have gooed out into the gearbox itself and contaminated the works. If so, this is most likely how the original failed also and I am a total doofus. If everything did get contaminated maybe I will be lucky and cleaning it all up and relubing will stop the damage, though I am not optimistic on this.
The other possibility is the input/sun gear from the motor was worn in a non-obvious way from the beating it took with the first gearbox and it is rapidly wearing down the planets on the new gearbox. I do not think this is the case, but it's the only other reasonable explanation.
I'll tear it down again over the weekend, see if anything is obviously wrong, and totally clean it all up. No RTV between the gearbox and bearing block this time when reassembling, though.
lesdit
100 W
Since the RTV is fairly soft and non abrasive I don't think it would harm much. In IC engines, I worry about RTV getting into an oil delivery passage to a main bearing or something, but there is none of that in the little gear box. Is there any room to put an O ring on the motor shaft to stop gear oil from entering the motor housing ?
glv
10 W
I'm not so worried about the abrasiveness of the RTV, more about it increasing stress on the gears as it gets stuck between planet and ring gears (or any of them, really), pushing them around in ways they weren't designed to be pushed and wearing them out more quickly as a result. I don't know if that's really something to worry about either as I don't really have a good feel for the magnitude of forces flying around in there.
It could be the noise is just from the gears hitting stuff getting stuck in there and it isn't really hurting anything. If I am lucky and that's the case it should all quiet down once I clean it up.
As far as the motor shaft bearing seal goes, I think it will probably hold the oil out well enough, especially since there's only a few ounces at most in there. I can't imagine an o-ring would hold up well to a 3000 RPM shaft grinding on it, but who knows.
It could be the noise is just from the gears hitting stuff getting stuck in there and it isn't really hurting anything. If I am lucky and that's the case it should all quiet down once I clean it up.
As far as the motor shaft bearing seal goes, I think it will probably hold the oil out well enough, especially since there's only a few ounces at most in there. I can't imagine an o-ring would hold up well to a 3000 RPM shaft grinding on it, but who knows.
glv
10 W
Both of my fears appear to be confirmed. There was RTV that found its way into the gearbox (though I don't know if it was picked up by the gears or just hung out by the edges) and there is already a small bit of wear on the new planet gears. I took it all apart and cleaned up the works with an unholy brain-cell-killing amount of degreaser this evening. I'm going to take a new planet gear to a local shop and see if they can rustle up a set for my lame gearbox. So I can have a working spare.
For fun, here are some pics of the old and new planets side-by-side
The amount of wear on the old gears is pretty apparent in this close-up.
The new gears still measure just shy of 35mm OD. The extra 1-2mm I estimated was apparently way off.
The calculation I found here says metric module = OD/(num teeth+2) so 35mm OD / (33 teeth + 2) = mod 1.0. I'm guessing the difference in measurement is either a deficiency of the calipers or is related to the odd number of teeth. If it had an even number of teeth I could take an OD measurement from the tips of two opposing teeth. In this case the measurement is at the tip of one tooth and the space between teeth on the opposite side.
For fun, here are some pics of the old and new planets side-by-side
The amount of wear on the old gears is pretty apparent in this close-up.
The new gears still measure just shy of 35mm OD. The extra 1-2mm I estimated was apparently way off.
The calculation I found here says metric module = OD/(num teeth+2) so 35mm OD / (33 teeth + 2) = mod 1.0. I'm guessing the difference in measurement is either a deficiency of the calipers or is related to the odd number of teeth. If it had an even number of teeth I could take an OD measurement from the tips of two opposing teeth. In this case the measurement is at the tip of one tooth and the space between teeth on the opposite side.
glv
10 W
Been a while since I updated. It's good to hear from you other cyclone users, keep us all in the loop on how your kits are running.
I put it all back together with only gear lube but without RTV or any type of gasket to seal the case and predictably it leaked. Some old-school paper gasket fixed the issue. There were already some metal shavings in the lube after only 10 or so miles so that's not too encouraging. I'm hoping it's just shavings from the planet carrier and not the gears themselves, but I guess that's not really great news either.
Quite a few miles on the new gearbox and it seems to be doing ok. It's definitely noisier than when new, but it hasn't started make that terrible frame-rattling vibration yet. I may take it apart again soon to see how everything is holding up and change the lube again.
rushgears.com has some pretty cool tools for ordering and even designing parts you need. I've been meaning to get a quote from them for the replacements. Worst case I have to disassemble this thing once a month and put in new gears
If I can get satisfactory parts from these guys at a decent price I may keep a bunch on hand for those of you with my luck :?
The big metal clamp paco ships with the kit works very well to hold on the heatsinks, even if it looks a bit over the top. The heatsinks do not conform very well to the case so by adding some heatsink compound and pressure from that big ass clamp they make much better contact. so far the motor has not had any more overheating issues.
I'm thinking hard about swapping out the cyclone motor and controller for a matt drive + astro 3210 + ben's modified 6 FET infineon for next season. It would be awesome to stick with my ping pack, though I don't know if 60-70A@48V will do that motor justice (maybe it will, I really don't know). I may have to make the LiPo leap if I go to a setup like that.
If you are still reading and not totally bored yet, I did some math to figure out the mpg equivalent of the bike based on my Wh/mi calculated by the CA. Most of the time the bike's burning between 40-50Wh/mi. Most starts are full throttle with minimal pedaling and I cruise at about 30mph with occasional bursts up over 35.
Anyway, 1 US gallon of regular 87 octane gas has just over 121 MJ of energy (according to Wikipedia) which works out to about 33647.5 Wh/gal. Assuming my math is correct that means I'm getting almost 675 miles/gal equivalent efficiency at 50Wh/mi, around 840mpg at 40Wh/mi. Granted, that doesn't count the inefficiency of the charger or innumerable other variables, but still pretty cool. A reasonably efficient car averaging 30mpg burns is up around 1125Wh/mi!
I put it all back together with only gear lube but without RTV or any type of gasket to seal the case and predictably it leaked. Some old-school paper gasket fixed the issue. There were already some metal shavings in the lube after only 10 or so miles so that's not too encouraging. I'm hoping it's just shavings from the planet carrier and not the gears themselves, but I guess that's not really great news either.
Quite a few miles on the new gearbox and it seems to be doing ok. It's definitely noisier than when new, but it hasn't started make that terrible frame-rattling vibration yet. I may take it apart again soon to see how everything is holding up and change the lube again.
rushgears.com has some pretty cool tools for ordering and even designing parts you need. I've been meaning to get a quote from them for the replacements. Worst case I have to disassemble this thing once a month and put in new gears
If I can get satisfactory parts from these guys at a decent price I may keep a bunch on hand for those of you with my luck :? The big metal clamp paco ships with the kit works very well to hold on the heatsinks, even if it looks a bit over the top. The heatsinks do not conform very well to the case so by adding some heatsink compound and pressure from that big ass clamp they make much better contact. so far the motor has not had any more overheating issues.
I'm thinking hard about swapping out the cyclone motor and controller for a matt drive + astro 3210 + ben's modified 6 FET infineon for next season. It would be awesome to stick with my ping pack, though I don't know if 60-70A@48V will do that motor justice (maybe it will, I really don't know). I may have to make the LiPo leap if I go to a setup like that.
If you are still reading and not totally bored yet, I did some math to figure out the mpg equivalent of the bike based on my Wh/mi calculated by the CA. Most of the time the bike's burning between 40-50Wh/mi. Most starts are full throttle with minimal pedaling and I cruise at about 30mph with occasional bursts up over 35.
Anyway, 1 US gallon of regular 87 octane gas has just over 121 MJ of energy (according to Wikipedia) which works out to about 33647.5 Wh/gal. Assuming my math is correct that means I'm getting almost 675 miles/gal equivalent efficiency at 50Wh/mi, around 840mpg at 40Wh/mi. Granted, that doesn't count the inefficiency of the charger or innumerable other variables, but still pretty cool. A reasonably efficient car averaging 30mpg burns is up around 1125Wh/mi!
glv
10 W
HA! I jinxed myself by even mentioning it; the motor cut out on the way back from lunch. Hopefully it just overheated and not something more serious. I was almost at my destination when it happened so I didn't wait around for it to come back on.
It might be kinda cool to rig up a temp gauge off of the thermistor leads from the motor... hmmm...
It might be kinda cool to rig up a temp gauge off of the thermistor leads from the motor... hmmm...
alswiseowl
100 W
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 255
Hi there,
its sad to see,such a good kit.made with crappy componets....
thanks for posting this,it has definatly put my purchasing of the cyclone kit to a hault..for the time being
+ the thought of having to open up the motor every 5 weeks,to replace or maintain,sounds like a p.i.t.a,let alone waiting for parts from overseas...
anyways keep us updated if you manage to source some good quality parts,like planets,ect
that fit & replace cyclone's ones.
take care
its sad to see,such a good kit.made with crappy componets....
thanks for posting this,it has definatly put my purchasing of the cyclone kit to a hault..for the time being
+ the thought of having to open up the motor every 5 weeks,to replace or maintain,sounds like a p.i.t.a,let alone waiting for parts from overseas...
anyways keep us updated if you manage to source some good quality parts,like planets,ect
that fit & replace cyclone's ones.
take care
glv
10 W
alswiseowl said:Hi there,
its sad to see,such a good kit.made with crappy componets....
thanks for posting this,it has definatly put my purchasing of the cyclone kit to a hault..for the time being
+ the thought of having to open up the motor every 5 weeks,to replace or maintain,sounds like a p.i.t.a,let alone waiting for parts from overseas...
anyways keep us updated if you manage to source some good quality parts,like planets,ect
that fit & replace cyclone's ones.
take care
Please take my experience with a grain of salt. It's possible I caused the whole problem by contaminating the gearbox with RTV, but I don't know for sure. There are lots of other folks on here running this same kit with no troubles whatsoever.
In any case, I have an RFQ in to rushgears.com to see what they want for a low-volume run of replacement planet gears. Once I get it sorted out I'll update back here. Good luck with your build, whichever way you plan to go!
glv
10 W
Heard back from rushgears... hoo boy... They apparently charge $1000 minimum for a run so 1 gear is $1000, 10 are $100 each, etc. Unless there are enough of you guys out there that want gears to add up to at least 100 pieces I guess I'll need to look elsewhere...
glv
10 W
Miles said:
That is probably what I should have done from the start. Unfortunately I've almost killed the second set of gears already so I'll have to see if paco will send parts.
On second thought, given that this set lasted about half as long as the first, I think there's a strong possibility the pinion is also worn (though that isn't apparent) and could be causing the accelerated wear on the planets. Replacing them alone may not be the best solution for me at this point. I may have to just bite the bullet and spring for a new drive unit, though I'm not sure if I should throw good money after bad.... :?
glv
10 W
I'll try to find some time this weekend to pull it apart and check that out. It really didn't look worn to me last time I checked, but I don't have a 'before' picture for comparison.
JEB
100 W
I think that the most important part of the problem is the grease that is used to keep a film between the teeth from being compressed out from torque/pressure.
There was a site posted by someone on the internet that tested lubes by using a split nut/screw, compression gauge in ft. lbs, clamped in a vise. Most films that were tested did not make one turn without seizure. The only one that made it through with more than 1000+ rotations was Krytox based.
Years ago Dow Chem. was selling a Moly lube (powder or paste?) that they said by adding it to a gear box would reduce the amount of power required was reduced by 20 % under the same load.
Saying all that it would be best to not use a grease, unless it flows back to were it is needed, (gear box gets hot?) or a high pressure synthetic type gear oil would be better?
There was a site posted by someone on the internet that tested lubes by using a split nut/screw, compression gauge in ft. lbs, clamped in a vise. Most films that were tested did not make one turn without seizure. The only one that made it through with more than 1000+ rotations was Krytox based.
Years ago Dow Chem. was selling a Moly lube (powder or paste?) that they said by adding it to a gear box would reduce the amount of power required was reduced by 20 % under the same load.
Saying all that it would be best to not use a grease, unless it flows back to were it is needed, (gear box gets hot?) or a high pressure synthetic type gear oil would be better?
alswiseowl
100 W
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 255
doesnt cyclone offer any type of warranty on there products?ive checked there site but could only find warranty on the batterys..
also how long have you owned the kit for...
also maybe the 1000watt motor may be the way to go.no gearbox...
anyways best of luck...
also how long have you owned the kit for...
also maybe the 1000watt motor may be the way to go.no gearbox...
anyways best of luck...
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