debate on universal access to health care

I like the gratuitous references to Office of Minority Health and Civil Rights, pretty much smack dab in the middle of that chart.

Why, it is almost as if the author of that document knew which emotional buttons would make his less progressive constituents the most irate.

Regardless, that certainly is much more complicated than our current health system...

Isn't it???

HealthCareMap.JPG


Oh wait, never mind.
 
Here is something in your precious health care bill for you older folks.

Rush Limbaugh is currently reporting that pages 425-430 of the bill in the house requires mandatory psychological evaluation every 5 years for seniors by Government trained psychologists. More frequently in some circumstances.

So....what happens if you do not do so well....
 
p.s. Rationed care is going to be a necessity. With growth of technology, there are going to be costs that simply don't make sense. It will have to be up to democracy to determine where the lines are drawn.

bob
 
"Do you really want Govt to control Health Care?"
No I want Free health care provided by a sworn order of care givers as part of a non profit organisation. Nationalize the Pharmaceutical, medical universities, and hospital corporations. Doctors, surgeons, nurses and support staff pay no taxes and are provided with housing, food, basic cost of living stipend by the government. Non essential treatments/surgeries may be charged for but the medical insurance industry is made illegal. All practitioners must provide a set number of hours(1440/yr) of free care to qualify to qualify. All citizens must invest in medical coverage bonds/stockmarket/ etc.. only for the use of mediacal costs.

That will fix the system because right now the Pharmaceutical industry is THE most profitable industry on the planet. they have funnelled those profits into buying up most of the hospitals, most of the insurance companies, most of the medical uinicersities. This is why costs keep spiraling because they have a mopnopoly across the board.
 
Lessss said:
"Do you really want Govt to control Health Care?"
No I want Free health care provided by a sworn order of care givers as part of a non profit organisation. Nationalize the Pharmaceutical, medical universities, and hospital corporations. Doctors, surgeons, nurses and support staff pay no taxes and are provided with housing, food, basic cost of living stipend by the government. Non essential treatments/surgeries may be charged for but the medical insurance industry is made illegal. All practitioners must provide a set number of hours(1440/yr) of free care to qualify to qualify. All citizens must invest in medical coverage bonds/stockmarket/ etc.. only for the use of mediacal costs.

That will fix the system because right now the Pharmaceutical industry is THE most profitable industry on the planet. they have funnelled those profits into buying up most of the hospitals, most of the insurance companies, most of the medical uinicersities. This is why costs keep spiraling because they have a mopnopoly across the board.
Click to expand...

You summarized why the free market system for health care doesn't and can't work, though I'd add that the other contributor is that consumers in most cases don't shop prices. They just want to get well making them lambs for the slaughter. The plan they're discussing will only enable more pigs to get to the feeding trough.

John
 
Ron paul is a fucktard. The Corpofacist establishment will keeps it's claws deeply sunken into health care profits cash cow as long as it can. It does not provide better health care just more expensive care. Almost all the advancements in medical technology and knowledge has come from outside the US and from universities for the past 50 years. IP and copyrights have retarded medical advancement and progress to a near halt. Just go look at the Lorenzo society if you don't believe that.

You need to reward the best and the brightest when they put their ideas forward. In the Corporate model that is buried under IP and copyright and access is charged at the greatest $$$$$ possible helping the least amount of people as possible..

Hospitals do next to no research - universities do. That research they do actually do is usually university funded.

Food: the government could EASILY provide a "keep em alive and out of malnutrition" food stipend that survives on the shelf for decades food. They don't because hungry people work for less money. As well it would taste like crap.

Housing. A very basic housing space could be easily provided to everyone - converted shipping containers anyone - -but they won't because if everyone is used to a small space personal space they wouldn't pay outrageous prices for badly built homes that get taxed to the hilt.

What happens when people's basic necessities are provided for? They become almost impossible to take advantage of in terms of making them work long hours for little pay. They also become a little lazy. They also indulge in their own desires for life.


Do you hear the french bitching about their health care system??
 
When government policy allows and encourages the majority of the food producing land into the hands of a very few people it does become the governments responsibility.

When government laws make it illegal for people to provide their own health care it does become the governments responsibility.
 
a guy i know thinks he is a chicken.
i said to his wife, "why don't you take him to a Doctor?"
she said "because i need the eggs"
 
Tom Tom said:
Lesss, its not gov't responsibility to provide food, housing, health care for anyone. You gotta look in the mirror for that
Click to expand...

See this is where the big divide is at, some people believe that it should not be their responsibility for their actions. They want some other entity to take over in where they fail. They also believe that some other entity can do better then they can at providing for themselves. And they are under the false impression that someone else is going to have their best interest at heart.

It's just not going to happen, until they realize they are going to have to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and get to work at taking care of their needs, they will always be looking to someone else to mother them.

Hush, my baby. baby, dont you cry.
Mommas gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
Momma wont let anyone dirty get through.
Mommas gonna wait up until you get in.
Momma will always find out where youve been.
Mommas gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
Oooo babe.
Oooo babe.
Ooo babe, youll always be baby to me.

Deron.
 
an 88 yr old man got 2 hip replacements on medicare.
perfectly legit.
lets say it cost $180,000
new idea:
offer him the OPTION of 2 new joints OR a cash payment of, say, 60,000 and a wheelchair.
This could save $$$$$$$
the guy could use the $$$$$
to, say, send a grandchild to college, hire a hooker, or send his hooker to college!
.
Good idea?
How about an employer plan with a lower limit, and pay the cash savings to the employee?
Let's say Joe works at XYZ and has an unlimited plan. Offer Joe the OPTION of $$$$$$ extra cash every year, if he accepts, say, a $1 million cap and a 20% co-pay.
Now Joe has an incentive to keep his expenses down and gets cash now.
Good idea?
.
BAN FREE SERVICE
this alone could rein in costs. EVERYBODY has a co-pay. Even the poorest of poor pay 1%.
a sliding scale up to 100% for the Forbes 500 richest.
Everyone will think long and hard, ...... is a new knee at 75 worth the co-pay? many will say NO.
Good idea?
 
Matt Gruber said:
an 88 yr old man got 2 hip replacements on medicare.
perfectly legit.
lets say it cost $180,000
Click to expand...

first let me explain my absence from this discussion; frying some nerves with microwaves has reduced my back pain to the point i no longer need the high dose narcotics that have kept me going the past few years. i still have back problems and have been taking enough ibuprofen that it put me in the hospital last week with a stomach ulcer. They now tell me when you puke up coffee grounds you need to go to the er. i have learned i cannot keep taking the "grunt candy" that kept many of us going in the military without it eating a hole in my stomach, so i will be more careful in the future.

the opponents of real reform in the health care industry have managed to stall the effort for the month of august, and it is critical that those of us who want reform keep at the effort. What Matt does not say is that the old guy might not have worked enough quarters on the books to have medicare and might not have any option at all. Personally i am not willing to throw old people onto ice floes and let them die. We are spending enough money right now that the guy could have 5 hip replacements. There should not be for-profit businesses between us and our doctors. The public option is the only way we will achieve this. The private health insurers like united health care have profits up over 40% while they continue to operate with the business model of denying care to anyone who gets too sick. Is anyone so stupid as not to see this?
 
Matt Gruber said:
an 88 yr old man got 2 hip replacements on medicare.
perfectly legit.
lets say it cost $180,000
new idea:
offer him the OPTION of 2 new joints OR a cash payment of, say, 60,000 and a wheelchair.
This could save $$$$$$$
the guy could use the $$$$$
to, say, send a grandchild to college, hire a hooker, or send his hooker to college!
.
Good idea?
How about an employer plan with a lower limit, and pay the cash savings to the employee?
Let's say Joe works at XYZ and has an unlimited plan. Offer Joe the OPTION of $$$$$$ extra cash every year, if he accepts, say, a $1 million cap and a 20% co-pay.
Now Joe has an incentive to keep his expenses down and gets cash now.
Good idea?
.
BAN FREE SERVICE
this alone could rein in costs. EVERYBODY has a co-pay. Even the poorest of poor pay 1%.
a sliding scale up to 100% for the Forbes 500 richest.
Everyone will think long and hard, ...... is a new knee at 75 worth the co-pay? many will say NO.
Good idea?
Click to expand...

I bet this already goes on, but what happens is people scam the system. I did a quick goggle search and came up with this.

Also if people were paid not to get a procedure, people would be coming out of the woodwork claiming they needed something done, just so they can get paid not to get it done.

(PressZoom) - HOUSTON—The owner of City Nursing Services of Texas Inc., an alleged Houston physical therapy clinic, has been indicted for conspiring to commit health care fraud, health care fraud, mail fraud and money laundering arising from an alleged multi-million dollar health care fraud scheme, United States Attorney Tim Johnson and Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott announced today. The 36-count indictment was returned by a federal grand jury this morning.

Umawa Oke Imo, 54, a permanent resident alien in the U.S. and native of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, was taken into federal custody on Friday June 26, 2009, following the filing of a criminal complaint which accused him of health care fraud. He has remained in court-ordered custody without bond since his arrest.

Imo is accused Imo of filing approximately $42 million worth of claims, predominantly for physical therapy services which were not performed at City Nursing, not performed by a licensed physical therapist and not performed by an appropriately supervised physical therapy assistant, with Medicare and Medicaid between Jan. 1, 2007, through April 30, 2009. Approximately $30 million was paid by Medicare and Medicaid for these claims. According to indictment, Imo did not hire any licensed physical therapist to work at the clinic and did not have licensed physical therapy aides appropriately supervised. Imo allegedly paid Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries approximately $100 to sign multiple blank forms indicating they received physical therapy when no such services were provided. Some beneficiaries reportedly received additional payments for not complaining to authorities. Imo also allegedly paid marketers for bringing beneficiaries to the clinic. The mail fraud charges center around three paper checks valued at approximately $180,448 that were mailed by the Medicaid contract administrator as payments to City Nursing in lieu of electronic fund deposits between March and May 2008.

Imo is also charged with money laundering and is accused of engaging in five transactions occurring between April 2008 and March 2009, each more than $10,000 and totaling $2,805,195 from a City Nursing bank account for referrals, the purchase and shipping of tankers to Lagos, Nigeria, and a check for more than $1 million payable to Imo himself.

The investigation leading to the charges is the result of a joint investigation conducted by agents from the FBI, the Texas Attorney General's Medicaid Fraud Control Unit, Internal Revenue Service - Criminal Investigation Division and U.S. Department of Health and Human Services - Office of Inspector General.

If convicted of health care fraud, conspiracy to commit health care fraud and money laundering, Imo faces up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine. The mail fraud carries a sentence of up to 20 years in prison. Special Assistant United States Attorney Julie Redlinger is prosecuting the case.

A indictment is a formal accusation of criminal conduct, not evidence.

A defendant is presumed innocent unless and until convicted through due process of law.

Deron.
 
i agree fraud is a problem.
of the 3 ideas, #3 is best. Ban FREE service.
would be much harder to scam with a 10% co-pay. Bills have to go direct to the patient each month.
ie
the 88 yr old gets to keep 18,000 if he takes the wheelchair, but
IT IS HIS OWN MONEY he is not spending. very convincing.
 
Here is one way government can control cost of health care if they take it over. Offer people near death a few thousand dollars that they can leave to their cat, dog or kids to fore go that expensive operation that may give them a few extra months or year. Just do like they did in "Soylent Green", only we do not need people for food yet.

Deron.
 
Or, perhaps we as a society can come to terms with the fact that life is issued with a two-way ticket. Our infantile approach towards mortality is reaping dividends for those who would harness ignorance.

Telling people that

A: nobody is going to live forever, and
B: 'single payer' <> 'minorities getting free boob jobs'

might cool some of the backwash off.
 
Shamelessly stolen from another forum:

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration -- and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
Click to expand...
 
i just saw what your republicans are saying about our NHS health care system and i feel sick. the NHS provides free healthcare at the point of access where as in the US you have to take out expensive insurance which many cannot afford. you only have to watch JohnQ to find out what a horror nightmare of a system the US have. im glad i live in the England with our superior hospital system. your republicans are idiots if they think the NHS is an example of "how not to do it". sarah palin is an aboslute retard for saying the NHS is "evil and orwelian".
 
Matthew,
The NHS beats what we have in the US for economic efficiency, that's for sure. I've got no experience with the NHS myself so I can't make a comparison, but I've had my share of mistreatment from US health care providers. But everyone makes mistakes, and I have been fairly happy with my healthcare overall, except for the fact that it costs twice what it should.

It might amuse you to hear that one of our conservative pundits actually said "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

I believe our reporter wasn't aware of where Professor Hawking lives. Maybe the accent threw him off.
 
Tom Tom said:
monster said:
. im glad i live in the England with our superior hospital system.
Click to expand...

Superior? Oh, do tell. please...........
Click to expand...

Read the Australian newspapers and you would think the constant complaints about the health system here we are in a third world country..
yet Australia is #7 for life expectancy at birth (well, according to the CIA), the UK is #36... USA is at #50.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Obviously there are other factors at play but I would say the health care system working in each country is a major factor.

The USA is a wealthier country than Australia but I guess we'll limp along with our socialised medicine and life corresponding sacrifice in lifespan.

p.s. Yes, you will find horror stories of disgraceful behaviour in the Australian healthcare system.
 
Canadian health care is no model.

SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw

Deron.
 
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