Delta trikes with leaning saddle and front wheel

Hey John
That Kantletrike really looks fairly simple and has a rear suspension. At the speeds you travel that may be important.
otherDoc
 
http://www.schultzengineering.us/chap6.htm

Not sure if this was posted before, but it's very thorough.
 
sk8norcal said:
another thing I have concerns about is all that unsprung weight..
and the need for a differential..
(not sure if the gyro have a diff..)

http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/2010/07/delta-12.html
Click to expand...

I've got a go-kart differential, though I won't need one if I opt for a motor for each wheel. I do want some form of suspension, but I'm thinking about leaving the space between the wheels for just the motor(s) and cargo. I like the idea of putting the batteries in line below the tilting axis of the frame, because then I should be able to get the trike to self balance when it's parked. It would be nice not to have to worry about some type of lean lock when I get off. That can save some weight too by making the support structure for the batteries and integral part of the frame structure. The lean pivot can take a number of different forms so it's placement is flexible in relation to the frame as long as it's height from the ground is less than half the width between the rear tires, that is if I correctly understand the tipping point info discussed at jetrike.com .

JOhn
 
veloman said:
http://www.schultzengineering.us/chap6.htm

Not sure if this was posted before, but it's very thorough.
Click to expand...

No, I haven't seen that before. I especially like the idea of 2 riding positions.

Thx,

John
 
If you want one, I'll can build it for you. The trike in the signature video is the original Magic designed by my late mentor Paul Smith in 1992. The frame was welded by Georgiev in trade for help designing one of his early speedbikes. The new trike has a video that is listed in my YouTube faves that was taken by Ray of Blue Velo. It has a low modified Magic pivot, slim rear track and handles the same as Magic on smooth surfaces. It's even better on the road and rough surfaces because it has a longer wheelbase and fatter tires.

:)ensen
 
purplepeopledesign said:
If you want one, I'll can build it for you. The trike in the signature video is the original Magic designed by my late mentor Paul Smith in 1992. The frame was welded by Georgiev in trade for help designing one of his early speedbikes. The new trike has a video that is listed in my YouTube faves that was taken by Ray of Blue Velo. It has a low modified Magic pivot, slim rear track and handles the same as Magic on smooth surfaces. It's even better on the road and rough surfaces because it has a longer wheelbase and fatter tires.

:)ensen
Click to expand...

OK, just tell me when to send someone by to pick it up.
 
Okay, then. Let's start with you sending a PM with your measurements, preferences for BB height, a side view photo of your preferred seated position including handlebar position, etc. I'll work out a few variables and come back with a quote for the frame.

:)ensen.
 
Sorry, I guess you missed my weak attempt at humor. You didn't mention anything about a price in your first post, so I was jokingly going on the assumption you wanted to build one for me out of the goodness of your heart or that you hated seeing me as the school bus for our boys on a dangerous 2 wheeler. One can hope anyway. :mrgreen:

I will do this though, I'll share what I come up with. If you see some glaring holes, please let me know. If it looks so bad as to be dangerous, I'll even pay for some design assistance.

John
 
purplepeopledesign said:
If you want one, I'll can build it for you. The trike in the signature video is the original Magic designed by my late mentor Paul Smith in 1992. The frame was welded by Georgiev in trade for help designing one of his early speedbikes. The new trike has a video that is listed in my YouTube faves that was taken by Ray of Blue Velo. It has a low modified Magic pivot, slim rear track and handles the same as Magic on smooth surfaces. It's even better on the road and rough surfaces because it has a longer wheelbase and fatter tires.

:)ensen
Click to expand...

Hi Jensen,

I dig your trike, can you post a closeup pic of the rear pivot?
btw ur trike looks familiar to me, I was at IHPVA in Eureka in 96? and met george georgiev,
and trying out a handful of leaners..

including this one..
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Q1dyW07vBRo/THS-6mrtfrI/AAAAAAAADQs/fCe160L2C30/s1600/varna+tilt.jpg
 
Let me be very clear. The trike in my signature video is not a Varna (even though many people attribute it as one). Rather, the frame for the trike was welded by George Georgiev and that's why they assume it's lineage. Unknown to most people is that was designed and belonged to my late mentor, Paul Smith. You will remember Paul for his big yellow coroplast tail fairing with the logo of an electronics sponsor. Anyway, the trike is called the Magic because it is. Georgi welded it to Paul's exact specifications as repayment for help with his early streamliners. Magic was first shown in public at Yreka/Montague '92 and was also brought to Eureka '94 and Vegas '96. I acquired it from Paul when he left for Europe before the new millennium. He made me promise not to reveal the secrets of the tilt mechanism so now it never goes out in public without a cover for the important bits.

At the '94 IHPSC, I never had anything as sophisticated as Paul's Magic. At the time I was still experimenting with a fully suspended tadpole made of riveted aluminum. The only features of note on my trike at the time were the self-equalizing front brakes and USS direct steering off the low-hanging Ackerman links. The third guy in our Vancouver builder's clique is (also) the late Dan Trayling. At '94, he brought the 17lb blue weight weenie CLWB with the sling seat. Dan liked things light... his front wheel had 6 spokes.

The photo you've linked is a later model of one of George's Sprite trikes. The original handles much better than the one in your pic because the geometry was kept the same but the wheels were swapped to all 20's from a pair of Moultons and and a 24. In '92, the Sprite was the only machine capable of turning small high speed circles with the Magic.

Now, my current daily driver is a low racer tilting delta and can be seen in these videos taken at 2009 Niagara Velomobile Gathering. The first video is just me coasting along no-hands. It can seen doing it's thing at 2:35 in the second video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA0FAeAA9to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZtcSsirc0

This new trike I call the Magic V2.0 out of respect for Paul. As you can see, he taught me well.

:)ensen.
 
I'm sorry, but if it really is that good then sharing the tilt mechanism now would honor his legacy. One of the great things to come out of the internet age is the concept of open source. Too bad it still hasn't caught on with people who build mechanical things. If an idea is worthy and you know you won't bring it into mass production yourself, then share it freely with the world. If someone does take it into production hopefully they will have the honor to include a small royalty % for you.

Will you at least say, is it the angle of the pivot that is critical, or is what's so special the slick pivot mechanism itself?
 
John in CR said:
I'm sorry, but if it really is that good then sharing the tilt mechanism now would honor his legacy. One of the great things to come out of the internet age is the concept of open source. Too bad it still hasn't caught on with people who build mechanical things. If an idea is worthy and you know you won't bring it into mass production yourself, then share it freely with the world. If someone does take it into production hopefully they will have the honor to include a small royalty % for you.

Will you at least say, is it the angle of the pivot that is critical, or is what's so special the slick pivot mechanism itself?
Click to expand...

Dan Trayling was the first one I know of with a CWLB bike in '94. A couple years later, BikeE comes out. Dan's bike also had the first ultra-lightweight linear brakes. After that, they started appearing on mountain bikes. Paul helped Georgiev work the aerodynamics on his first speedbikes. Not a public word of thanks.

Open source is a just a buzzword for freebie. Maybe it makes sense with software where millions of people will use it and 10,000 people will "donate" something to the author. But in a limited market with only 5000 users, having only 5 people pay does not make sense. If I release the specs to Paul's trike, you can bet there will be any number of clones the following year. In fact you've already said as much.

And... who ever said I wasn't trying to bring it to production. I just happen to be running on a shoestring and tilting trikes is a very limited market. BTW, it is that good, which is why I offered to build you one (for money of course). If you want to try to reverse engineer it after that, go for it, but just so you know, the production unit will be welded shut.

But all that aside, I promised my friend and mentor I would not reveal it. Keeping a covenant is about honour. If it dies with me, so be it. Let some other genius figure it out next century.

:)ensen.
 
sk8norcal said:
is this the same trike at 1:28 ?
Click to expand...

Yes. I'm proud to say that while Paul conceived the design. I helped him tune it. We were watching Dan turn circles with it one day and Paul saw that it was a little skittish. How he saw that is beyond me, but he used to race both cars and sailboats so he must know something. Anyway, I suggested what I thought was an obvious adjustment to the rear axle and afterwards, we all agreed that it was much more stable. Of the three of us, Dan was the fastest, Paul could do 3-wheel drifting turns and I could make small tight circles. In one episode, I actually had to stop from a headache, which Paul told me was grey out.... G-forces slowly depleting cranial blood pressure. The last time that trike was out in public was in 2008 at an HPV ride in Toronto. The ride ended with a group display at a street festival and for one demo, I managed high-G circles inside one lane of east Bloor Street. The Magic V2.0 cannot turn circles as small because it's wheelbase is nearly 6" longer, but it's close. More important is that the longer wheelbase makes it a better behaved road machine overall. The original Magic is more of a parade trike.

:)ensen.
 
purplepeopledesign said:
[

And... who ever said I wasn't trying to bring it to production. I just happen to be running on a shoestring and tilting trikes is a very limited market. BTW, it is that good, which is why I offered to build you one (for money of course). If you want to try to reverse engineer it after that, go for it, but just so you know, the production unit will be welded shut.

But all that aside, I promised my friend and mentor I would not reveal it. Keeping a covenant is about honour. If it dies with me, so be it. Let some other genius figure it out next century.

:)ensen.
Click to expand...


Why not just patent the design?

otherDoc
 
purplepeopledesign said:
John in CR said:
I'm sorry, but if it really is that good then sharing the tilt mechanism now would honor his legacy. One of the great things to come out of the internet age is the concept of open source. Too bad it still hasn't caught on with people who build mechanical things. If an idea is worthy and you know you won't bring it into mass production yourself, then share it freely with the world. If someone does take it into production hopefully they will have the honor to include a small royalty % for you.

Will you at least say, is it the angle of the pivot that is critical, or is what's so special the slick pivot mechanism itself?
Click to expand...

Dan Trayling was the first one I know of with a CWLB bike in '94. A couple years later, BikeE comes out. Dan's bike also had the first ultra-lightweight linear brakes. After that, they started appearing on mountain bikes. Paul helped Georgiev work the aerodynamics on his first speedbikes. Not a public word of thanks.

Open source is a just a buzzword for freebie. Maybe it makes sense with software where millions of people will use it and 10,000 people will "donate" something to the author. But in a limited market with only 5000 users, having only 5 people pay does not make sense. If I release the specs to Paul's trike, you can bet there will be any number of clones the following year. In fact you've already said as much.

And... who ever said I wasn't trying to bring it to production. I just happen to be running on a shoestring and tilting trikes is a very limited market. BTW, it is that good, which is why I offered to build you one (for money of course). If you want to try to reverse engineer it after that, go for it, but just so you know, the production unit will be welded shut.

But all that aside, I promised my friend and mentor I would not reveal it. Keeping a covenant is about honour. If it dies with me, so be it. Let some other genius figure it out next century.

:)ensen.
Click to expand...

That's such a load of manure. Here we are trying to discuss a type of bike about which you have direct knowledge of designing one that is "magic", yet you haven't even offered a pointer in the right direction. "Freebie" my ass, it's called sharing in a way that makes the world a better place for all. You guys have had it for 18 years now did nothing other that build a bike, maybe a few, so it's time to wake up and realize you're not going to do anything with it. I just want to build a trike for myself, and if you don't want to offer any guidance public or private that's your choice, but it doesn't reflect well on you and certainly doesn't honor your dead friend. BTW, I haven't seen a good idea yet that I didn't have something to add as an improvement...That, my friend, is what open source is all about, sharing and making things better.

Have a nice day,

John
 
docnjoj said:
Why not just patent the design?
Click to expand...

Several reasons. First, it was revealed to the public in 1992 by the inventor, my mentor. That alone probably invalidates any patent application, although if nobody has figured it out, it might technically be considered a secret and still patentable. Second, a patent puts the whole design into the public sphere where legitimate copies can be made for fair use activities like academics, education and research, which would normally still be a small but useful market. Third, it takes a lot of money if you want to have a good chance at successfully getting a patent, then duplicating that coverage in most of the major industrial nations where patents have force. Fourth, enforcing a patent takes even more money than getting one and would pit me against a much larger entity. On the other end of the scale, it's very difficult to sue for infringement against personal use copies because next to no financial "harm" has been done. Finally, I respect my late mentor and doing so would not only be a kind of theft of his genius by co-opting the invention but even worse, it would show contempt for his generosity in teaching me all he knew about the vehicle design.

To me, this particular thing is just wrong.

:)ensen.
 
John in CR said:
That's such a load of manure. Here we are trying to discuss a type of bike about which you have direct knowledge of designing one that is "magic", yet you haven't even offered a pointer in the right direction. "Freebie" my ass, it's called sharing in a way that makes the world a better place for all. You guys have had it for 18 years now did nothing other that build a bike, maybe a few, so it's time to wake up and realize you're not going to do anything with it. I just want to build a trike for myself, and if you don't want to offer any guidance public or private that's your choice, but it doesn't reflect well on you and certainly doesn't honor your dead friend. BTW, I haven't seen a good idea yet that I didn't have something to add as an improvement...That, my friend, is what open source is all about, sharing and making things better.

Have a nice day,

John
Click to expand...

Don't be angry because I made a promise I intend to keep. Sadly, you're making assumptions about the history of this design so I will elaborate.

My friend had it for 7 years before giving it to me. Magic was definitely ahead of it's time since Paul did approach several companies about it. None were interested, probably because industry for a long time was less about efficiency and more oriented towards bigger and more powerful, like the Hummer or the Ferrari. He was just going to gift it to me when he left for Europe, but I insisted on giving him some money because I knew what it is worth. Paul could have tried to commercialize it while he was in Europe but I think he wanted a "slower" retirement. I couldn't do anything with it for a while because I was caught up in a design career for a decade. His death from cancer left me pondering the meaning of life. It took another couple of years and a long-lost love to make me realize that what happened was that Paul finally gave up and that giving me the trike was his way of saying I should try. After leaving my job and moving across the country in 2007, it was time to bring the machine out of the shadows. Since then, I've been trying to build a little company that makes custom bikes and finally have a website. Whenever people have asked about the details, I've made no secret of my business aims on whatever forum I'm on. I'll help people with all other aspects of bike design, but not this.

BTW, thanks... it's turning into a sunny-ish day here and I have to go into the back yard to finish a pedal generator for a local community festival. They are nice people doing a nice thing so I'm building it without cost to them. In return, they are getting me the rescued materials for the project and telling the media that I designed and built it. Fair trade since I couldn't possibly afford the exposure I expect to get.

You're asking for the most important component of the trike and I've said there is a price. I've been told my mistake was not making my offer in a private message, but now I'm not so sure. It's likely you'd have given me this kind of grief in private and I'd much rather everybody understand my position, especially since it's a web faux pas to make public the details of a private discussion.

I'm leaving this thread now.

:)ensen.
 
I'm sorry that you think voicing an opposing opinion is giving you grief. Right or wrong I call it as I see it, and I apologize if I come across too black and white. I believe ideas should be freely shared. Sure I believe if someone comes up with something and really follows thru on development there's nothing wrong with going it alone, but at some point of doing nothing with it they should make a truthful evaluation and share it with the world so maybe someone will improve on it or take the ball and run with it. If even half of the stories and claims are true just imagine what Tesla went to his grave with. Also look at what protected IP did to the electric car thanks to Texaco/Chevron and NiMN large format batteries.
 
sk8norcal,

Do you think that's the magic geometry that the purple guy is unwilling to share? It seems like trail in the front wheel geometry and the changes in front and rear geometry during compression of the suspension could be issues that raise their ugly head.

I'm starting to think that it may be easier to get things right by going with all 3 wheels leaning. The Munzo leaners (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JSTqIOORgI&NR=1 and http://www.fastfwd.nl/index.php?id=36) seem to be the simplest implementation. Then I'd get the benefits of a full leaner with the only detriment being that I give up some cargo space between the wheels.

John
 
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