Dealing with the trike wobbles.

DaLanMan

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I have 3 standard trikes sitting in my garage right now, and while the wife loves one of em, and the other is here for a headlamp install and it is bettter (fat tire low slung, kinda nice to ride on) The third is kinda-sorta-maybe gonna be mine. It is (thanks Chalo) a workman trike, it came with a standard 2 wheel and a "convert it to a trike" kit... Which someone was trying to make into a rear pintle tilting bike system...

I know, upright trikes have issues recumbents better.

I am losing sensation in my left side way faster than expected. I am fighting a clock and trying to not be dead in the water. I broke my pelvis when I was in the army, and it was *not* pretty, complete left/right seperation to the right side of the sacroiliac joints, was told I *might* make it to crutches, but unassisted walking was done. Yeah, turns out if you are too stubborn to listen to that, you can beat the odds. I happily occasionally need a cane but only as a safety measure.

I have adapted to the loss of sensation in my left foot but habitually kind of wiggling my hips, shifting back and forth left to right moves your balance function from the receptors in your feet to your inner ear. Luckily that is well connected still.

All that was to just get past the what abouts.

I have been digging into the tilt steering reverse trike concepts. and so far I don't actually see anyone selling one for basically what I could buy a motorcycle for. (I found one around 7k, and a company dealing with the disabled that starts at 15k) I am looking at a final sunset not long in the future, I am not spending my savings on a vehicle that is overpriced and probably won't perform (ok, the 15k one will totally perform, but that needs more than a 3 year window for an ROI)

This is about the area I see as viable, obviously I ain't peddling that. Most of the other designs have the front pair at about 30cm or so apart, a few are wider, a couple were like 10cm apart.. which is not gonna help my situatoin.

I am looking to solve the issues of: Shot out knees, if my bum goes below my knees, getting up can dislocate one of them (just forcing myself into a standing position) and that is the one on the jacked side of my pevis. Secondly I am losing balance due to peripheral neuropathy caused by a tumor on my spine. Yes I have docters etc, but after 20 years with the VA, and then direct out of pocket hiring a lot of specialists to have them all miss an obvious issue, trust is not high that they will do much.

Once I can get my body to be less focused on the input from the feet, I do fine, but that is harder than you think. Try not noticing that your body breathes for you without you thinking about it. Once you think about it for a few seconds you *most people* get in a slightly uncomfortable feedback loop.

So, with all that, can I pick you guys design brain? Ya all have done this *WAY* more than I have. I have a fab guy that looked at a few of the other ones posted and said "nope, boss that is a failure waiting to happen, get me a real set of blueprints, or hell even a few pictures and I will figure it out, but not that" I have heard this a few times and he does know what he is doing.

Thanks.
 
Having tinkered with the concept a few times . . . a couple points to make.
Don't skimp on the quality of the rod ends as any free play is undesirable in the control system. Sloppy tolerances lead to wheel wiggles and steering wobbles.
When done right it will somewhat function like a bicycle i.e. it is not self balancing, some designers add in a tilt locking strategy.




 
Still not sure why tilting multi-track HPVs keep surfacing. You add mass & complexity.... for what purpose, exactly? There's also a hidden gremlin (well.. apparently oblivious to most), that plagues nearly all tilters... Yes, even the traditional bicycle & motorcycle. Lets just see if anyone can hone-in on this 150 YO flaw. And no, I'm not referring to CoG placement specifically (although poor mass distribution can make it even worse)
 
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Still not sure why tilting multi-track HPVs keep surfacing. You add mass & complexity.... for what purpose, exactly? There's also a hidden gremlin (well.. apparently oblivious to most), that plagues nearly all tilters... Yes, even the traditional bicycle & motorcycle. Lets just see if anyone can hone-in on this 150 YO flaw. And no, I'm not referring to CoG placement specifically (although poor mass distribution can make it even worse)
The one big advantage is cornering ability.
Trying as hard as possible the versions I built could not be forced to drop the rider.
Tires would skid and slip but the vehicle never put the rider on the ground.
Overall, they were much slower down the straights losing overall lap time.
That said . . . the Honda Gyro leaning trike is a commonly seen around crowded cities in Japan.
 
I don't know anything about this "150 YO flaw", but when I see a thread about tilting trikes I jump aboard.
My fascination began last summer. I was thinking I need a cargo bike to haul things like my table saw (it's a Bosch:)).
When I saw a picture of the Kawasaki Noslisu cargo trike I instantly knew that's what I want. I'd put a Grin all-axle motor in the back. As far as I know you can't get the bike here. Anyway, here's a thread about that trike:
Noslisu Tilting Cargo Trike
 
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The one big advantage is cornering ability.
Help me out here Steve. Why, specifically, would a tilting 3-wheeler posses superior cornering ability?

But before you decide to respond, I should mention that my primary focus is in regards to street driven utility vehicles - which appears to be the overwhelming bulk of fresh arrivals.
 
Help me out here Steve. Why, specifically, would a tilting 3-wheeler posses superior cornering ability?
Shifting the Center of Mass is the primary reason.
Compared to fixed trike, a better load path into the tire helps traction, less sidewall flex and less tire scrubbing.
Tires stay on the ground rather than "lifting" so all tires provide grip.

As far as a daily use cargo hauler is concerned, a leaner is easier to maintain the intended path when traversing off camber or high crown roads verse a fixed three wheeler.
A plus for Leaner's is : they can be narrower compared to fixed trikes which helps in crowded areas and access through doorways etc.

Overall, a Long John or Long Tail 2 wheeler is narrower making them more energy efficient, if that's important.
 
Help me out here Steve. Why, specifically, would a tilting 3-wheeler posses superior cornering ability?

But before you decide to respond, I should mention that my primary focus is in regards to street driven utility vehicles - which appears to be the overwhelming bulk of fresh arrivals.

Well from my knowledge. I have never driven a leaning trike... I have however played with a sidecar that had a lean function. SO I assume it is the same process. It was a JOY to ride compared to it's brother the racing bike with sidecar. Granted, I had a pro in the sidecar and his job was: 1) don't fall off. 2) you are now the weight distribution portion of this vehicle. Literally he was back and forth like a trapeze artist and whatever I did, he counter balanced. It was a blast... then I tried the leaning sidecar and realised, that poor man is losing his job to a tilt function. In all seriousness though, the tilt process is directly in control of your maneuverability, the only thing that supersedes this is traverse physical limitations and an odd bit of physics I still do not understand. Specifically when you turn left, the first thing you do is turn right on an upright bike. If you do not have the left/right clearance for this, you can not make much of a turn. (there are vids out there, if someone needs to find it I think I can track it down).

Bikes are fascinating, and it has been proven that if it was not for the giant spinning gyroscopes under you on a 2 wheeler, you probably could not ride one successfully. (there is a vid somewhere of a mt bike taking on Moab after the rider lost his grip on the seat, and it made it to the bottom before falling over.

With that said, My desire is because my goal is to keep riding with my son, and it is not viable on a standard trike that I have thus far found (I have a fat tire low slung Mt Trike in route to me, may have to update this afterwords). If it was just heading out to get from A to B I would mod the shit out of a delta and go for it. If I can't figure it out there are a couple people round these parts that got this system nailed down. I just don't think it will keep up with the rocket powered monkey mobile (my sons nicname is Monkey).
 
the first thing you do is turn right on an upright bike

"counter-steer"

Note that if you do not have your hands on the handlebars, you will not counter-steer to turn - you will only lean in the direction you wish to turn.
 
When I was first told this, I did my best to look through the memories and see if I agreed, i could not for the life of me remember ever doing it, and my memory for completely useless detail is ridiculously good.

Next day when I went out to check, I was amazed that it happens. and I could not, not do it.

Turned into a lot of conversations. Still find it hilarious to ask people "hey, when you just turned, why did you turn the wrong way first"

I am easily amused.
 
"counter-steer"

Note that if you do not have your hands on the handlebars, you will not counter-steer to turn - you will only lean in the direction you wish to turn.
I respectfully disagree. A rider can indeed steer a traditional bike hands free. Once at speed, simply pinch the top tube with both knees, then shift your body mass left or right... causing the frame to tilt. Mechanical 'trail' kicks in and turns the front wheel. I have personally ridden hands-free for well over 2 miles of winding downhill pavement. I was a young halfwit back then, and would strongly discourage such stupidity today.
 
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I respectfully disagree. A rider can indeed steer a traditional bike hands free. Once at speed, simply pinch the top tube with both knees, then shift your body mass left or right... causing the frame to tilt. Mechanical 'trail' kicks in and turns the front wheel. I have personally ridden hands-free for well over 2 miles of winding downhill pavement. I was a young halfwit back then, and would strongly discourage such stupidity today.
I think you have written what I wrote, but perhaps interpreted what I wrote differently. I wrote that when riding hands free there is no initiating counter-steer - the rider simply leans in the direction they wish to turn.

So, to turn left when riding hands free, the rider does not first turn right (somehow) to initiate counter-steer - the rider only leans left. This is against the poster I quoted who was stating that the right turn was required to initiate a left turn - this is true if using the handlebars, but not if leaning. I was just pointing out an exception.
 
Supposed to be a trike thread, but whatever.

You can both be right. At higher speeds the counter-steer moment might be imperceptible, so it’s easy to believe that you’re simply leaning into turns. But at low speeds it requires an obvious wobble off of the hips to initiate turns, whether or not you’re bracing knees against top tube. And the slower you’re travelling, the more aggressively you need to flick your hips. Quite violently at slow walking speeds, to the point you resemble a unicylist.
 
I think we need a blood sport stage for this one..

Ready?

FIGHT!!!

My point was that it was cool... Physics yo.

Back to less wobbly vehicles...

Has anyone seen a conventional trike with rear suspension? does this beast exist and I just missed it?
 
Stick the 2 wheels at the front and allow the single rear wheel to pivot as and when, stiffness or flexibility can be a feature of the connecting frame.
Its a significant engineering rewelding job anyway so why not?
 
Has anyone seen a conventional trike with rear suspension? does this beast exist and I just missed it?
Many, perhaps most, pedicabs use a swingarm with the passenger platform on it. So there's no articulation between the head tube and rear axle, but there very much is rear suspension when the trike is loaded.

Sun Seeker has a model with midship suspension that could be characterized as rear suspension. But the rider isn't "above" the suspension, instead being seated on the swingarm.

 
See,
Yowch, over 9300 American shekels. You really gotta want rear suspension before that makes sense.
See, therein lies the problem.

I can afford well, I can buy anything that will fit the bill. Can't take it with ya and all that. But at the end of the day, anything I spend won't be left behind. and I have a bloody hard time paying a price that is equitable to having it one off fabbed for me. I have been in that particular industry for ages, and not so many moons ago I had a motorcycle frame fabbed from scratch, not my normal gig but the one off original was destroyed, and the guy responsible for the destruction wanted to make it right. We came in just under 10k and a fair chunk of that is what my welder called "Exotic materials and the pains of dealing with them" if it had not been for the mixed metals in the frame. We woulda been closer to 7500... And that was much heavier stuff.

I understand business, what I do not understand is the just flat out hard core money grubbing, if you are gonna do that, take it where it belongs.. Government contracting.
 
Yowch, over 9300 American shekels. You really gotta want rear suspension before that makes sense.
The best German engineering always commands premium prices. The best also commands highest resale. Bitch about the price today... and it'll be 20% higher by summer. Predictably, another 10% by Xmas. A f##king bargain when compared to any 2 ton cager.
 
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I mean of course, but I don't whinge about the BMW, because it is well paid funds. I just have an issue with barfing up used car money for peddles...
 
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