Dewalt, A123 Nanophospate packs disappearing from market

[CyclemotorEngineer]

The number these packs on eBay has been in steady decline for some time now. There is currently only one US vendor of the 36 volt Dewalt DC9360 in Buy-it-now. Meanwhile, Chinese sellers of bare, new A123 26650 cells and used developer packs have cropped up. Since spring, it has seemed that the last of some manufactured stock is being sold off. Why? Apparently, Black & Decker and University of Texas did not reach a settlement which would allow these packs to be manufactured and sold.
http://toolmodo.com/?p=65

When factoring in life-cycle cost and discharge power density, the 26650 A123 cells are the best I have seen for small electric vehicles.

Questions for members of this group:
1. Is there a product on the market now with convincing proof of equivalent performance and life cycle cost?
2. Would production of an equivalent cell use claims from patents held by both A123 and the University of Texas?

 

[gogo]

Or is it that the 900 pound gorilla (EEstor) about to be let out?

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Until I see an EESTOR capacitor, it is 900 lbs of snake oil.

 

[Ypedal]

In small form factor, the Makita 18650's ' Konion ' cells LiMn are very impressive, but in 10ah format the PSI cells are the best i've had the pleasure of using so far.... if 3C tickles your pink the Headway cells are a bargain.. recently hoby king has released LiFePo4 in foil pouch format at an impressive C rate but no data available on that yet..

The M1 cells.. well.. sadly.. :|

 

[gogo]

Until I see an EESTOR capacitor, it is 900 lbs of snake oil.

Hehe, true.

I just got an email from Tool King offering the DeWalt DC9280 28-Volt Battery Pack with NANO Technology for $49.88.

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

In small form factor, the Makita 18650's ' Konion ' cells LiMn are very impressive, but in 10ah format the PSI cells are the best i've had the pleasure of using so far.... if 3C tickles your pink the Headway cells are a bargain.. recently hoby king has released LiFePo4 in foil pouch format at an impressive C rate but no data available on that yet..

The M1 cells.. well.. sadly.. :|

Thanks for your update. Do you think that any of the cells you mention approach the life-cycle cost of A123's product? Please recall that A123 features a remarkable life over 1000 cycles, with 100% depth of discharge at 10C rate. Dewalt quoted a 2000 cycle life for tool power applications.

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Until I see an EESTOR capacitor, it is 900 lbs of snake oil.

Hehe, true.

I just got an email from Tool King offering the DeWalt DC9280 28-Volt Battery Pack with NANO Technology for $49.88.

I believe that the 28 volt line was released by Dewalt after the 36 volt. There is more 28 volt product on Ebay right now, so it may be the last Nanophosphate to leave the market.

 

[BMI]

In small form factor, the Makita 18650's ' Konion ' cells LiMn are very impressive, but in 10ah format the PSI cells are the best i've had the pleasure of using so far.... if 3C tickles your pink the Headway cells are a bargain.. recently hoby king has released LiFePo4 in foil pouch format at an impressive C rate but no data available on that yet..

The M1 cells.. well.. sadly.. :|

Thanks for your update. Do you think that any of the cells you mention approach the life-cycle cost of A123's product? Please recall that A123 features a remarkable life over 1000 cycles, with 100% depth of discharge at 10C rate. Dewalt quoted a 2000 cycle life for tool power applications.

The XPS packs that use our cells have a working life every bit as long as an A123 pack when you consider that the LiFeTech packs come with 3-5 years/3000 cycles warranty. LiFeTech uses the highest grade of LiFePO4 powder supplied by Phostech.
The cells used in these packs are here-
http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

 

[BMI]

recently hoby king has released LiFePo4 in foil pouch format at an impressive C rate but no data available on that yet..
The M1 cells.. well.. sadly.. :|

I don't believe that these packs contain foil pouch cells with the kind of C rates claimed. They must be cylindrical cells if they are LiFePO4 to give this kind of discharge rate.
Is there any evidence they are pouch cells?

 

[voicecoils]

The XPS packs that use our cells have a working life every bit as long as an A123 pack when you consider that the LiFeTech packs come with 3-5 years/3000 cycles warranty. LiFeTech uses the highest grade of LiFePO4 powder supplied by Phostech.
The cells used in these packs are here-
http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

Are your customers able to specify or find out what percentage of the cathode powder is supplied by Phostech?

 

[voicecoils]

recently hoby king has released LiFePo4 in foil pouch format at an impressive C rate but no data available on that yet..
The M1 cells.. well.. sadly.. :|

I don't believe that these packs contain foil pouch cells with the kind of C rates claimed. They must be cylindrical cells if they are LiFePO4 to give this kind of discharge rate. Is there any evidence they are pouch cells?

The cell form factor an unknown at this stage. I estimate in 2 weeks or less someone will disassembled the new Turnigy packs and will answer the mystery on the forum.

 

[BMI]

The XPS packs that use our cells have a working life every bit as long as an A123 pack when you consider that the LiFeTech packs come with 3-5 years/3000 cycles warranty. LiFeTech uses the highest grade of LiFePO4 powder supplied by Phostech.
The cells used in these packs are here-
http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

Are your customers able to specify or find out what percentage of the cathode powder is supplied by Phostech?

Phostech manufactures several different blends of cathode powder depending on the cell type and characteristics. This is why our cells provide so much better performance than those manufactured by the Chinese battery companies.
We use two suppliers/manufacturers of cathode powder and neither is made in China. Phostech is a major supplier to us so the Phostech cathode powder could account for anywhere from more than 50% or less than 50% depending on the demand for any particlular type of cell/battery at any given time.

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

In small form factor, the Makita 18650's ' Konion ' cells LiMn are very impressive, but in 10ah format the PSI cells are the best i've had the pleasure of using so far.... if 3C tickles your pink the Headway cells are a bargain.. recently hoby king has released LiFePo4 in foil pouch format at an impressive C rate but no data available on that yet..

The M1 cells.. well.. sadly.. :|

Thanks for your update. Do you think that any of the cells you mention approach the life-cycle cost of A123's product? Please recall that A123 features a remarkable life over 1000 cycles, with 100% depth of discharge at 10C rate. Dewalt quoted a 2000 cycle life for tool power applications.

The XPS packs that use our cells have a working life every bit as long as an A123 pack when you consider that the LiFeTech packs come with 3-5 years/3000 cycles warranty. LiFeTech uses the highest grade of LiFePO4 powder supplied by Phostech.
The cells used in these packs are here-
http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

Thank you for your post, BMI. I searched this website, and did not see the warranty information you describe. Did I miss something? Also, pricing and availability was not easily obtained.

Of primary concern was the lack of data indicative of long-term discharge testing. If these tests were done, and the results actually demonstrate comparable performance to A123's cells, it would behoove the manufacturer and distributor to show them. The complete picture would include graphs of discharge capacity loss versus discharge cycles at various temperatures, rates, and depths, as shown in A123's data sheet:
http://www.a123systems.com/cms/product/pdf/1/ANR26650M1A_Datasheet_APRIL_2009.pdf

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

The XPS packs that use our cells have a working life every bit as long as an A123 pack when you consider that the LiFeTech packs come with 3-5 years/3000 cycles warranty. LiFeTech uses the highest grade of LiFePO4 powder supplied by Phostech.
The cells used in these packs are here-
http://lithbattoz.com.au/index.php?page=battery-cells

Are your customers able to specify or find out what percentage of the cathode powder is supplied by Phostech?

What is so special about Phostech powder?

 

[liveforphysics]

Ehh, IMHO, its a snake oil. The phostech company wouldn't awknowledge selling to them when contacted. However, something does cause lower Ri than a standard headways cell, so something is different.

Headways releases a 15Ah cell, for about 2 days, then emails back that they are sorry they can sell them outright because BMI or PSI (or something, I don't keep track) is going to be retailer of the 15Ah cells they make, and to purchase through them if I want them.

Then, AFAIK, they don't awknowledge headways as the maker of the cells, and release the product of identical specs as there own new XPS cell (or whatever).

I don't know why they gotta make batteries into secret spy stuff, or why the 15Ah cells were $22 each from headways (for 2 days lol), and now cost God knows how much when they put an XPS sticker on them.

I'm all about getting good batteries to the end user, so more electric vehicles can be running around. I don't know why they feel the need to play top secret spy stuff over what cells are what, etc. And the 200% margins...

But that's just my uneducated $0.02 on the matter. Take as a grain of salt.


On the bright side, hobby city has packs which have identical specs to A123 (your original concern) for cheap. Very likely 12 A123 cells assembled together 2p6s, and at $5.85/cell. Better deal all around than buying tool packs for cells. (If they indeed are A123 cells).

 

[Tom Tom]

I don't think the new hobby city 6s2p LiFePo4 pack is using A123 cells.

You'd think they would label them as 4600 mah instead of 4500,
and the measurements(LxWxH) don't seem to fit A123 cells.

my .02 (prolly only worth .01 nowadays )

 

[vanilla ice]

I'm pretty sure they are a123 m1 cells.. I'll eat my hat if they aren't.

I'm not seeing these cell disappearing? Even if there are not as many sellers on ebay, they are for sale all over the place..

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Ehh, IMHO, its a snake oil. The phostech company wouldn't awknowledge selling to them when contacted. However, something does cause lower Ri than a standard headways cell, so something is different.

Headways releases a 15Ah cell, for about 2 days, then emails back that they are sorry they can sell them outright because BMI or PSI (or something, I don't keep track) is going to be retailer of the 15Ah cells they make, and to purchase through them if I want them.

Then, AFAIK, they don't awknowledge headways as the maker of the cells, and release the product of identical specs as there own new XPS cell (or whatever).

I don't know why they gotta make batteries into secret spy stuff, or why the 15Ah cells were $22 each from headways (for 2 days lol), and now cost God knows how much when they put an XPS sticker on them.

I'm all about getting good batteries to the end user, so more electric vehicles can be running around. I don't know why they feel the need to play top secret spy stuff over what cells are what, etc. And the 200% margins...

But that's just my uneducated $0.02 on the matter. Take as a grain of salt.

On the bright side, hobby city has packs which have identical specs to A123 (your original concern) for cheap. Very likely 12 A123 cells assembled together 2p6s, and at $5.85/cell. Better deal all around than buying tool packs for cells. (If they indeed are A123 cells).

Thanks for your 2 cents, liveforphysics. Do you have a link to the hobby city offer? I just bought some new 28 volt DeWalt packs for $6.56 per cell on eBay. Cheap today, gone tomorrow, and who knows when we will see them again.

Regarding the secret spy stuff, there is a lot riding on the race to better batteries. Always a temptation for companies to hide their specs or overstate them. Electric bikes with SLA batteries are routinely specified with battery capacity for the 20 hour discharge rate, even though nobody will ever ride a lead-loaded bike that way! When everybody advertises this way, the company publishing honest specs looks inferior. Most refreshing about A123 and Dewalt was the credibility they established.

My hunch is that producing the best batteries will require ideas expressed in claims held by two entities which aren't going to cooperate, and that neither side will admit this. What a waste if true!

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

I'm pretty sure they are a123 m1 cells.. I'll eat my hat if they aren't.

I'm not seeing these cell disappearing? Even if there are not as many sellers on ebay, they are for sale all over the place..

The commercial products based on these cells are disappearing. Dewalt DC9360 packs are quite rare now, and the DC9280 packs are priced to sell when you can find 'em. Black and Decker VPX rechargeables used same battery technology, with smaller cells. These are off the shelves and disappearing from eBay as well.

There are many offers from Chinese vendors of the bare cells on eBay, but this looks like a sell-off of existing manufactured stock. The market for cells on eBay and for R/C hobbyists is tiny compared to the power tool market. I am not so sure that the availability of these cells can continue without the economy of scale afforded by entry into the power tool market. Also, the deal struck between U of Texas, A123 and Black and Decker is apparently not public. Unless anybody has any hints of what might have happened, we will just have to wait and see.

 

[grindz145]

I think that the A123 Cells are a bit over-hyped. At high discharge rates the cycle-life goes down considerably. They are in the same ballpark of performance of limn and lipo. I think the fast charge rate is somewhat unique but again... you sacrifice cycle life for that. I love the Konion LiMn04

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

I think that the A123 Cells are a bit over-hyped. At high discharge rates the cycle-life goes down considerably. They are in the same ballpark of performance of limn and lipo. I think the fast charge rate is somewhat unique but again... you sacrifice cycle life for that. I love the Konion LiMn04

Thanks for your post, grindz. Will you please share links to pages with comparable specifications?

 

[swbluto]

When A123 seems to be heading towards an IPO (Or has?), I get the feeling their cells or equivalents aren't disappearing anytime too soon.

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

When A123 seems to be heading towards an IPO (Or has?), I get the feeling their cells or equivalents aren't disappearing anytime too soon.

Thanks for sharing your feeling, swbluto. A123's IPO was on September 24th.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/a123-systems-jolts-the-ipo-market-2009-09-24

In more recent news regarding financial information, the company lost nearly 23M this year and 19M last:
http://green.venturebeat.com/2009/11/11/a123systems-reports-q3-loss-but-stays-upbeat-after-ipo/

A123 has unequivocally left the power tool market. Can't predict the future, but the disappearance of these clearly viable products cannot be a good thing for the end users of their small cells. They are now partnering with companies to make grid-stabilizing (read large cells) equipment. The company also seems to be having difficulty partnering with an automotive manufacturer, which was their stated ultimate goal. Of course I fervently wish them success, but that does not change what appears to be happening.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/globenewswire/178084.htm

 

[grindz145]

a little bit of info here too: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6381&start=0

 

[CyclemotorEngineer]

Private message exchange might be of general interest:
----------------------------------------------------

From private messenger:

I recently bought 9 28v packs from toolking. the battery plastic is marked 2007, will these packs last a few years? Also if i want larger pack are you suggesting I better act fast before there gone!
------------------------------------------------------

My response:

Yes, I believe these packs will not be available much longer. But this is speculation, since companies are not announcing anything. Maybe they are working out a deal that will be in everybody's best interest. Maybe a new and better technology is just around the corner.

Two year old batteries sold as "new" is telling indeed. Time will tell what shelf life of these batteries really is, since they haven't been in production very long. A123 has projected 23% capacity loss after 15 years storage at 100% state of charge and 60 degrees CENTIGRADE. Since nobody stores their precious babies in a hot box, according to these data they might last even longer.
http://media.hyperion.hk/dn/a123/A123.pdf

Good luck with your build!