Did I purchase the wrong tool???

[cwah]

Hello there,

I purchased these tools for drilling:
- A 20£ 500W silverline drill (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hammer-DIY-Power-Drilll-500w-Silverline-265897-240V-3Yr-Warranty-GONEXTDAY-3-99-/120977808607?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item1c2ad6dcdf&_uhb=1#ht_3189wt_942)
- A 20£ silverline drill press (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hammer-DIY-Power-Drilll-500w-Silverline-265897-240V-3Yr-Warranty-GONEXTDAY-3-99-/120977808607?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item1c2ad6dcdf&_uhb=1#ht_3189wt_942)
- A 38.50£ milling vice (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370646208084&ssPageName=ADME:X:eRTM:GB:1123#ht_1088wt_1139)


The milling vice was too small for my projects, it only had 100mm width clamp, so I extended it with some piece of wood to allow up to 300mm clamping:

I thought it would work fine... but there are problems for every single tool:
[youtube]cLgI7Z-tejk[/youtube]

Issue 1: The drill press moves horizontally from left to right. There's nothing I can do to stop it or stabilize it.
Issue 2: The drill bit doesn't spin straight on my drill. They move slightly so it's very difficult to do any precision drilling
Issue 3: The vice slider isn't stable. You can see it moving on the video.

I illustrated each issue on the video, I don't know how to solve that. It's difficult to work or to do any precision drilling.

I can't drill straight, I can't aim straight and I can't cut straight... What shall I do?

 

[ddk]

hate to say this but,
buy a drill press
I never found any of the type the adapts a hand drill to be remotely accurate or stable

I used to use the vise you bought. Under the pressure of milling it will stabilize and it can produce credible results but it IS a piece of work. I used mine to mill heatsinks that didn't require 0.001 accuracies
(or for that matter, 0.01 accuracies :lol: )

 

[iamsofunny]

I have two of those and they wobble all over the place

 

[cwah]

So getting a bench drill is my only solution? The lightest bench drill I've found is this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-262212-Drill-Press-350W/dp/B002QRYEBQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347750258&sr=8-1

It still weight 17kg


Can't I get something like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CORDLESS-CORDED-DRILL-STAND-VERTICAL-DRILL-BENCH-UK-SELLER-/280877249422?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item416596b38e&_uhb=1#ht_4705wt_1025

And maybe add this one that has 5 stars on amazon?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-76215-230-Volt-810-Watt-Hammer/dp/B00205MT1G/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

That would be cheaper and more lightweight

 

[cwah]

I have two of those and they wobble all over the place

Have you managed to sort your problem? I'm so annoyed by my tool

 

[ddk]

not living or playing on your continent I have no idea what might be a gud one
Lately I've required more accuracy in my drilling so decided to purchase this one
-I'll have it here to play with on Tuesday.
I don't intend to do milling so my requirements are much less than yours, which requires very low wobble (as in none) better-than-average bearings on the spindle and the lowering mechanism. Power is a function of how fast you can work.

I'm so annoyed by my tool

-can't say I'm annoyed with 'my' tool. :lol:

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Many years ago I bought one of those Chinese cross slide drill vice things - I probably still have it around somewhere. I used it once and found it to be pretty dreadful, with play just as yours has. You can adjust the gibs (using the screws with locknuts at the sides) to remove the free play, but this usually means the slides are then very stiff to use.

Unfortunately, if you want rigidity and accuracy with tools like this then they usually have to be pretty heavy, or expensive, or most probably both................

 

[cwah]

I asked for a quote to Peatol.co.uk, a Taig mill would cost me £1100 and weight 35 kg :|

I asked also if I can have it as CNC as I suppose it would greatly simplify my life.


Not sure if it's the right decision... would I have a lot of maintenance to do with this tool? And I suppose I would have to buy a lot of extra part? Also the Tail mill is something like 10 years old technology, I suppose something better should exist now?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The basic Peatol/Taig milling machine is around £950 and weighs a little under 30kg if fitted with the rather heavy standard motor (which is different to the US Taig motor; it runs on 240 V 50Hz). If you buy the milling machine without the motor it is lighter, around 22kg IIRC. It's pretty easy to fit a Turnigy outrunner motor, driven from a power supply and controller, and this does keep the weight down, but means getting pulleys machined up to fit the milling machine spindle and the motor. Several people have done this mod to the Taig/Peatol machines and it works very well, but it does need access to a lathe to bore out the pulleys, so may not be OK for you.

The other thing to watch is that you'll need some accessories to make the milling machine useful, as a bare minimum a set of ER16 collets and milling vice, plus a set of clamps. You'll probably also find a few end mills useful, and an engineers square to set the machine up roughly (saves having to tram the work piece up true to the axes for non-critical work).

As mentioned before, the small Chinese milling machines are a cheaper option, although heavier than the Taig/Peatol. This one: http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/XJ12-300.html for example, is half the price of the Taig/Peatol, yet probably slightly more capable, but unfortunately it's probably far too heavy for you at around 60kg. The Sieg X1 is slightly less capable, but around the same weight as the Taig/Peatol and again around half the price: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sieg-super-x1-micro-mill-mkii-prod719673/ or here: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/Model-Super-X1L-Mill.

 

[Alan B]

I'm looking at getting a Grizzly G0704 mill, and CNC'ing that. I have an X2 (G0516) type mill now and it is a bit lightweight though it can do some serious small work. See http://www.G0704.com for more info.

To get precise drilling you spot first with a (short and stiff) center drill, and then you can use short screw machine drills to increase stiffness. Using Tormach tool holders makes quicker work of switching between center drill and drill bit. Drill bits can wander if not spotted first.

Mill vises are a lot stiffer than those loose drill press vises.

I have no experience with the Taig but see many references to it being expensive and slow and not good at steel but okay for aluminum.

You can find lots of info at places like www.cnczone.com.

 

[cwah]

Thanks Jeremy, the Sieg is maybe a better deal as it's 2 times cheaper.

In your link it indicates 40kg!!
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/Model-Super-X1L-Mill

Wondering if it's wrong somewhere? Or maybe it's because it has a longer table? Going to ask them for precision.


Alan, I've seen you can buy CNC conversion kit here:
http://www.cncfusion.com/micromill1.html

I was wondering if I would be able to convert it to CNC if I buy an Sieg X1? I have to ask them.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Thanks Jeremy, the Sieg is maybe a better deal as it's 2 times cheaper.

In your link it indicates 40kg!!
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/Model-Super-X1L-Mill

Wondering if it's wrong somewhere? Or maybe it's because it has a longer table? Going to ask them for precision.


Alan, I've seen you can buy CNC conversion kit here:
http://www.cncfusion.com/micromill1.html

I was wondering if I would be able to convert it to CNC if I buy an Sieg X1? I have to ask them.

But this link I gave earlier: http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sieg-super-x1-micro-mill-mkii-prod719673/ says 32kg..................

My guess is that the quoted weights may not be too reliable, as I doubt there's much difference between the various people selling what is essentially the same Chinese machine.

The Sieg machines are reasonably accurate (and are essentially the same machines sold in the US by Grizzly and Harbor Freight).

I'd forget about CNC for the time being, as the learning curve is pretty steep and you'll be trying to get to grips with both how to set up and use the machine and how to drive the CNC software. Best to learn to use it as a manual milling machine first, then see if you feel the need to convert it to CNC, IMHO. I keep meaning to convert my Taig to CNC, but really haven't found a pressing reason to do so yet, as it's often quicker and easier to just do small jobs manually.

 

[adrian_sm]

May I ask why you are so concerned about weight? For these types of tools weight is usually your friend, as it reflects mass/inertia/strength all things that give your tool greater accuracy.

 

[cwah]

I'm thinking that maybe the one on Axminster is the smaller version. The table is much smaller. The table travel allow about 180x90mm.

So about the same travel size as the Proxxon at 150x150mm:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/proxxon-proxxon-mill-drill--complete-system-prod799254/

I'm thinking about maybe for now it's better to have a "lightweight" one such as the proxxon. It has only 150x150mm working area but it's only 16kg!!!. Maybe I can mill an extension (same as the one on my drill stand) to clamp bigger part.


So I would have a lightweight and still capable milling machine? I would use it for battery box, bike custom part, battery holder, torque arm and maybe trailer part but it's probably too much for this little proxxon. :lol:



adrian_sm: I'm very concern about weight because I move frequently. I've moved to 4 different flats since I live in London in 2 years. And I may even move to another country... And every time it was such a pain :lol:

 

[d8veh]

You don't need a precision drill to drill holes in precise positions. You mark the position you want the hole, and then centre-punch it. The drill will drill precisely where you centre-punched.

 

[cwah]

I was unable to drill a hole in an 6 mm rod because my drill bit was wobbling everywhere. So if I manage to punch a hole on this rod (I'm not sure how to punch on a rod), the drill bit should directly go into it even if it's wobbling as much as it is shown on my video?

 

[Alan B]

Drilling on a rod is tough. Start by grinding or filing a small flat, then punch on that.

Center punch, then use a center drill to make a starting hole, then a drill bit. The bit will follow the starting hole. Even a $50 drill press can do a pretty good job with this, but forget those cheap xy vises. A machinists vise or mill vise is much stiffer. The stock chuck is probably poor also, upgrading to a quality chuck can really improve a low cost drill.

Machining steel the size of torque arms requires a stiff machine. X2 is marginal. A lightweight small machine will work on very small parts.

Jeremy is right, CNC is a project on its own. Start manual and you can learn and do a lot. Learn about CNC and consider it a later upgrade.

I'm aware of the CNC Fusion kits. That's the metal parts (which can be made yourself at lower cost), plus you still need motors, drivers, power supply, breakout boards, wiring, and software. Plus there is mill tooling of which I have some already. The cost to CNC a 1K$ mill is likely to approach 2-3K with ballscrews.

 

[ebent]

To drill a hole that is difficult to start it is best to use a very small diameter bit to start. Punch it first. After the first hole a larger bit will follow the small hole. Depending on the situation, it may be smart to use several bits step by step.

In viewing your first purchase it seem to me your choices were price driven. That can be a big hurdle to jump if you expect precision work. I liked the skill bench top drill press that was shown on this thread. However there are other presses that are more precise. But it will probably be adaquate. Some of my woodworking equipment takes 3 men and a boy to lift or load into a truck. I have them on casters so I can move them myself. I agree heavy tools are usually better.

If you intend to stay on the cheap side you are better off to pay to have the work done. In the long run that is less money with a better outcome.

 

[ddk]

.... I liked the skill bench top drill press that was shown on this thread. However there are other presses that are more precise. But it will probably be adaquate.

whatdaya expect for 100 bucks :lol:

If you intend to stay on the cheap side you are better off to pay to have the work done. In the long run that is less money with a better outcome.

THIS is a fact.
why spend thousands of dollars on tools when you can get something made to your specifications for 100th or less the cost of the tooling?
I just need to drill holes actually perpendicular to the face of the stock for later threading.
Recently killed several workpieces because my hand-drilled holes were anything but perpendicular-just got tired of redoing something that should have only taken one attempt

 

[cwah]

Thanks guys, that's really helpful for the tip on the rod. I'm going to do that.

Does that mean I can use the set up I have now to do precision drilling? I don't need to upgrade?


I was just thinking about the next time I'm going to move and with the 40kg Sieg X1 I'm going to die... :lol:

And the proxxon may not be strong enough...


Maybe I just keep my set up for now? Or maybe just upgrade my drill and stand to a better quality? Proxxon would still be my favorite but if it can't work steel that would be quite annoying :lol:

 

[Punx0r]

Regarding your video in the OP:

The stand shouldn't let the drill waggle side-to-side like that. I'd contact the seller and ask if there's a fault with it, because it's no good to you as it is. That leads you onto the subject of a refund, even if it's isn't faulty (just completely shit and not fit for purpose).

It's hard to tell, but it looks like the drill chuck is running badly out of true. Hold it firmly in your hands (to eliminate the stand waggle), and eye ball the outer circumference of the chuck. There should be no wobble. If there is, the spindle is probably bent. Refund time.

The vice looks just like slop in the jaws. Once tightened down on something it will probably be ok. You won't do any milling with that setup, though. Except maybe on a Dremel-sized scale. For one thing, drills are not deigned to take radial loads on the chuck, and the bearings will soon fail.

I have a very similar bench drill to the Skill on linked to. It's cheap and cheerful, but adequate for my needs. As said earlier, mark out by hand, centre punch and drill. You ought to be within 0.25mm accuracy with that. Drilling a 2" deep hole with that bench drill, I can expect it to be about 1mm off straight.

 

[Alan B]

Once, a long time ago, I picked up one of those wood drill-rasp bits and chucked it in my floor standing 5/8" drill press. It had one of those x-y vises on it, and I drilled a hole in a scrap 2x4 and cut a slot sideways. The side force on the bit loosened the taper and a chuck that weighted several pounds came falling and spinning out of the press. Luckily the bit in the hole/slot contained it so there was no carnage.

Moral of the story - drills are for drilling. Side forces require a mill.

 

[heathyoung]

Yeah, I've wondered about that - was considering a compound slide (your x-y vise) on a drill press, I might rethink it!

Moving 40Kg is not too bad, sheesh. The UPS in the garage has 6 modules at 50Kg each.

The X1 is probably the cheapest to CNC if you use the existing leadscrews.

 

[Alan B]

Not sure it is worth the cost/effort to CNC something that small. I'm thinking G0704/BF20/X3 is about minimum to do torque arms and other interesting steel ebike parts. I've done some larger 6061 parts on the X2 and it was clearly stressed.

One issue with these small mills is that by the time you get a chuck and dill bit in there, plus a vise, there is no room for the part. They don't have enough Z space. On the X1 there is hardly enough room for these. On the X2 there is still not much room for a part. I had to get a Z extension kit to get useful space under the drill bit. A small drill press has more Z space than these tiny mills.

 

[cwah]

Thanks Puxnor, I think I'm going to replace all these tools. I'll see if I can play wit the warranty but I'm not sure at all.


Alan, do you mean that if I want to do my bike part, I would need at least an X2 of 60kg??

What can I do if I start with a lighter Proxxon milling of 16kg? Can I do battery box, metal holder/clamp, steel castor holder to my brompton (http://www.amazon.co.uk/RUBBER-CASTORS-CASTERS-WHEELS-50/dp/B006OZKYHE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1347840059&sr=8-3), upgrade my trailer clamp to better fit my brompton... etc etc.

A have load of small work/project. But no space. A slowlish Proxxon may be able to do that? Or I just get a better drill and ask for a professional to mill my part every time?