Disassembly of an abused BD-36 (56k warning)

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So, I got around to checking on the brushes on my BD36. If you've been following my build thread, you know that I've been running it at 72V, which is a 100% overvolt. Here's how I went about it:

First, take out the screws. If you look really close, you can see that I've cut slots into the heads of several of the screws. They are made of some weird size, and are prone to getting stripped. The slots allow me to use a flathead screwdriver, which is much easier to deal with. ↓

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After you take off the screws on both sides, tap the axle on the ground to remove one of the side plates. Note that the side that the wire exits on HAS to come off second. If you try to take it off first, you'll be banging the brush assembly into the commutator plate. ↓

DSCN0172.jpg



Make sure you take this sleeve off the wires. You might cut into them if you don't remove it and try to take off the other side plate. A little work with a screwdriver will loosen it up, and a little more tapping on the ground should make it come off. ↓

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Pic of the rear of the commutator plate. Looks good here. ↓

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Pic of the back of the brush assembly. Like new. :wink: ↓

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Now, here comes the tricky part: Separating the rotor and stator. This is the safest way I've come up with to do this, and, believe me, you want to be safe when messing with these magnets. They can easily crush your finger. There's probably like 100lbs of force holding this thing together. Stick the axle in a vice (wire side down; as shown) and then push up HARD on the outer housing. Careful to keep your fingers out of harm's way. ↓

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Pic of the stator and brushes. One is a little oxidized on one side, otherwise they seem to be holding up well. ↓

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The commutator plate, however, isn't looking so hot. There's some fairly bad pitting on the leading edge of a number of contacts, and you see those smooth gouges eminating from the space between the individual contacts? Those aren't supposed to be there. There's also some slot-like HOLES being burned into the side of the plastic. :lol: ↓

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Getting the thing back together is pretty much just doing this in reverse. But remember to do this when you put the rotor and the stator back together. Push the brushes into their housings as far as they will go and then use some alligator clips or clothespins or something to clamp down on the wires they attach to on the other side. This will keep them in place when you put the motor back together. If they aren't held there, they could come out of their housings and either not be in place or broken when you try to rejoin the main two pieces of the motor. ↓

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Other than the pitted/gouged commutator plate, the motor seems to hold up to 72V well enough if the amperage is held to a reasonable level (I use a 30A controller). I'll keep riding it, in any case. :wink:
 
Excellent presentation. :D

Q1: Is the pitting on the commutator actually on the leading edges or on the trailing?

Q2: Anything you could do to reduce the pitting?

Q3: Are replacements available?
 
TylerDurden said:
Q1: Is the pitting on the commutator actually on the leading edges or on the trailing?

The side you're looking at is the left side of the motor, so it's the leading edge.

...

Honestly I have no idea how I knew it was the leading edge when I first said that. :shock:

TylerDurden said:
Q2: Anything you could do to reduce the pitting?

Other than perhaps using some other kind of brush or coating the plate in something like silver oxide, I have no idea. Though I think rounding the edges of the contacts is supposed to help...? I don't have the tools to pull that off, though. :?

TylerDurden said:
Q3: Are replacements available?

The entire commutator plate/core/winding assembly is made of one piece and then epoxied to the inside of the motor. So I'd either have to buy a new motor or cut out the old plate somehow and make a new one. Neither is worth it, IMO. I'll probably just ditch this motor when it's destroyed and put a BL36 though similar "testing". 8)
 
That's really a nice post. Too bad the damage from 72 volts is to the motor, not the brushes. Oh well, just have to go brushless when I build a high volt bike. Out on the street, Im as fast as I feel safe. When I had a 49cc moped i suprised everybody how fast it went and got into all kinds of scrapes with cars at 35mph. But out in the dirt, I'd love more power.
 
Fine post Link! Mine looks similar, and it wasnt run over 42 volts, so the commutator problem may be endemic to these crappy brushed motors! That said, I retired mine after 3 years of regular use, and it looks the same! I just reinstated it for my 16" hi-torque "silent" project! "Long may U run"!
OtherDoc
 
Good tutorial Link!!!...I was thinking that perhaps this winter I'd swap out the piddley little 16 gauge wires going into the motor and to the brushes with the biggest that'll fit on my Brushed Clyte and while I'm at it will also blow out the soot and any other debris I find.

I'll refer to this thread when I get to it!

Thanks
Eric
 
Did you clean the commutator plate? How do you find the performance compared to the golden motor? So far I have had a couple of brushed motors and the brushless I have far exceed them in performance. The brushed motors get much hotter!
 
Nice pics.

that thing looks like it's on the ragged edge of burning up, but the fact that it hasn't yet is just damn cool.

The erosion is caused by arcing. an electrical arc is plasma, so basicly, you're eroding the contacts with tiny plasma cutters. :twisted:

Looks like fun. When and if it does blow up, I want more pics.
 
I fear when my brushes finally burn out. I have no way of taking that apart.
(I also like keeping my fingers uncrushed by 100lbs's of magnet force)
I'll probably have to sell it to someone cheap and buy another wheel+motor.
 
Johnbear said:
Did you clean the commutator plate? How do you find the performance compared to the golden motor? So far I have had a couple of brushed motors and the brushless I have far exceed them in performance. The brushed motors get much hotter!

Yeah, I cleaned out all the carbon dust the brushes left.

It doesn't. They stay about the same temperature, but otherwise the Golden outperforms it completely. This was/is being run at 72V 30A in a 20", so it should be faster on the takeoff than the Golden, which is being run at 48V 40A in a 26". The BD36 has 5mph top end on the Golden, but the Golden takes off harder. I'd have to attribute this to the much smaller airgap, proximity of the airgap to the center of the wheel, and increased number of magnets.

However, this could also be partly due to the fact that the 20Ah worth of lithium I'm using with the Golden is far more capable of delivering the power than the 4.5Ah SLA bricks I used with this thing. :roll:

Key point, though, is the sheer size of the Golden. It weighs like 50% more than the BD36, so I would expect it to be more capable of sustained power levels.

needWheels said:
I fear when my brushes finally burn out. I have no way of taking that apart.
(I also like keeping my fingers uncrushed by 100lbs's of magnet force)
I'll probably have to sell it to someone cheap and buy another wheel+motor.

Eh, just make someone else do it. :wink:
 
Joystix's pic gives some perspective to the extent of the damage done to the commutator plate:

file.php


~500mi, 36V

Vs.

~250mi, 72V

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Crap.

Screw brushes.

:lol:

Oh, and for the record: My motor was bought used with about 160 miles on it. :lol:
 
True! However, most of what's on his plate is carbon dust, and remember that his brushes weren't even contacting the plate correctly, while mine were in good working order.

And I didn't take a picture of the brush plate after it was cleaned up because (unlike his) it didn't look much better than it did before. :?


What I'm actually wondering is what's up with the asymmetry of the thing. The gouges are only on about 1/3 of the motor; same with the worst of the pitting.

Hmm...:|
 
Hey Link! Way back in Pre-Cambrian times when I fooled with small high powered electrics, we used to run em in a drill and use a pencil eraser to refinsh the commutators! They were a good deal smaller and more precision than BD36! Clean/gently sand with non metal-oxide paper or coarse eraser, clean and vacuum, put it back together (watch them piggies!) and go ride! Have fun!
otherDoc
 
great idea doc. I have a dremel tool that have pitted commutator like that too. I think i'll drop by staple and pick up some of that eraser for pen. They're a little more abrasive than rubber eraser for pencil. Going to hook up the dremel to a drill and clean it up. Maybe this should be posted in the EV basic section. Tips for maintenance. Hub motor disassembly should be there too.
 
I assumed hub motors have the coils stationary and the magnets spinning . . .

Wouldn't it be easier (more efficient) to spin the weight of the magnets than the coils?

J
 
Oops! Final Step use lacquer thinner or contact cleaner on the copper. Get the crud out!
otherDoc
 
Dee Jay said:
I assumed hub motors have the coils stationary and the magnets spinning . . .

Wouldn't it be easier (more efficient) to spin the weight of the magnets than the coils?

J

mechanically it is easier to keep the brushes stationary and have the coils move. all of the wiring connects to the brushes ant it is easier to do this if the wires don't have to spin. when the brushes make and break contact with the commutator segments they create the rotating magnetic field.

brushless motors have the wires connected directly to the coils. it is easier to make these electrical connections if the coils are stationay ad have the magnets move.

some industrial motors have been built that use combinations of slip rings/ brushes together with commutators/brushes to make motors where the coils remain stationary but these add more parts to go wrong, waste energy and loose efficiency. in general the simpliest mechanical and electrical connection will be the best. that usually works out to brushed motor = coils move and brushless = magnets move.

rick
 
Just kicking this thread back up so sombody can find it
 
We need some sort of "useful thread" archive somewhere. Perhaps a subforum where anybody registered can reply to threads, but not post topics...? :?
 
Link said:
So, I got around to checking on the brushes on my BD36. If you've been following my build thread, you know that I've been running it at 72V, which is a 100% overvolt.

Flawless windings . . .

Since the windings rotate with the hub, this motor can be amped-out and cooled with heat fins around the casing.

I think a cooled motor would perform better and save more energy than fancy electrical solutions.

J
 
See the thread heat abused bd36. The magnets on the rotor get unglued, so how do you cool the rotor? Another thread with some interesting ideas on that.
 
dogman said:
See the thread heat abused bd36. The magnets on the rotor get unglued, so how do you cool the rotor? Another thread with some interesting ideas on that

The ball bearings are the only contact between axle and hub so the magnets don't really get much heat from the windings.

Either use better glue or secure the magnets with brackets or other means..

J
 
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