Doubts about a Ax100 Conversion project

[Blackyster]

I want to convert a 100cc suzuki ax100 is a low weight motorcycle, but I have a doubts about my engine, batteries, and controller selection.

Batteries - 16s1p Headway 40152 15Ah Cells or 4s2p ZIPPY Flightmax 8400mAh 4S2P
Motor - Motenergy ME0201014201 Brushless DC Permanent Magnet Motor
Controller - Kelly controller KBL48221X
18" motorcycle rims
Chain drive
All for 48v and (+/-) 15-18A

What you think about that configuration... Is good...? is bad...? please comment, i'm really new in this world and i try to learn more...

After conversion, I wanna doubling the capacity

Motorcycle

Sorry for my mistakes, I do not handle well the English

 

[amberwolf]

Take a look at my SB Cruiser trike. It probably doesn't weigh half of what that bike does, and with "48V" 35A it can't even get out of it's own way, it's so underpowered. Takes quite some distance just to get to 15-20MPH (maybe; dunno it's exact speed but nto very fast).

CrazyBike2 with 2WD and 65A+ can get to 20MPH in 4-5 seconds, but it also doesnt' have a very fast top speed (probably not much more than 30MPH, but I've only ever even tested that once, and I don't know how long it took to get there).


I don't think "48V" and 15-18A is gonna get that bike of yours rolling.

To get a more realistic idea of what you'll need to budget for, you'd probably better read up on other such conversions, either here on ES, or on EVAlbum, as a start.

 

[Blackyster]

At the start, i think out in 72v 15ah with the Me4201 and Keb72801x like this http://evalbum.com/4582 that is 24s1p headway pack
but 24 headway need much space and y can't add more cells for double the range...

 

[riba2233]

Just use modern cells which are 3 times less volume than headway.

 

[Blackyster]

Take a look at my SB Cruiser trike. It probably doesn't weigh half of what that bike does, and with "48V" 35A it can't even get out of it's own way, it's so underpowered. Takes quite some distance just to get to 15-20MPH (maybe; dunno it's exact speed but nto very fast).

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forum...833&p=1031470&hilit=SB+Cruiser+trike#p1031483
wow thats is soo much steel

i think, just I need 35-40mph only for the city

Just use modern cells which are 3 times less volume than headway.

Please define what you wanna say with "modern cells", something like leaf cells ?

 

[riba2233]

Leaf cells are not bad, but still don't have excellent energy density. I'm talking about modern NCA 18650 cells like ones Tesla use. Panasonic ncr18650pf, or samsung inr18650-29E...

 

[Blackyster]

Leaf cells are not bad, but still don't have excellent energy density. I'm talking about modern NCA 18650 cells like ones Tesla use. Panasonic ncr18650pf, or samsung inr18650-29E...

I also assumed, but for 72v 10a i need 24s4p pack, is 96 ncr18650pf cells at $14.49 the pair in amazon
is (96/2)=48 (48*$14.49)= $695.52 + shipping + tax = and i don't know what c' rates has that cells...
I live in third world country like Costa Rica and i can't afford it

 

[riba2233]

Amazon LOL :lol:

Don't be ridiculous, look at realistic prices:

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/panasonic-ncr18650pf-3-7v-2900mah.html

 

[Blackyster]

Amazon LOL :lol:

Don't be ridiculous, look at realistic prices:

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/panasonic-ncr18650pf-3-7v-2900mah.html

sorry i don't have experience on lithium tecnologies, i say it in the first post
96 cells for $330 not is bad price
but is the ncr18650pf better safe than headway?
How charge that batteries?
And how balance 96 cells? :|
what c' rates they have?

 

[riba2233]

They are 3.5C continuous, and 6C short peak. So similar as Headway. You make parallel packs, so balancing and charging is the same as with any other batteries. However, they tend to stay closer than any other cells, and don't have a cliff at the end of the charge like lifepo4 does, so they wont get overcharged easily. They are very safe, so you don't have to worry about that one. Tesla uses similar cells, but with a bit better capacity (3200 vs 2900 mh).

 

[agniusm]

For that bike get a hub motor. No point in chain drive when you have little space. There are hub motors that will do good, just need to find one that you could lace into your rim. There are cells for sale on this forum from Poland. I think you will need somethink like 40ah at 48v of 18650.

 

[Blackyster]

For that bike get a hub motor. No point in chain drive when you have little space. There are hub motors that will do good, just need to find one that you could lace into your rim. There are cells for sale on this forum from Poland. I think you will need somethink like 40ah at 48v of 18650.

You say one like this http://kellycontroller.com/hub-motor-48v3kw-high-speeddisc-brake-p-135.html or http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=46898 i think john lives in C.R that reduces my losses in taxes and shipping...
In personal i dont trust much in hub motors, but can be a good solution for save space, i think what really i dont know, is how fast can be a electric motor
I know that more voltage more speed and more amps more torque, but also influences the aerodynamic and weight...

I ask for your help because I don't know much these essentials things.

And i like lifepo4 because it not burn in flames except in cases of bad wiring.

 

[riba2233]

Brand name 18650 cells are as safe as lifepo4.

 

[Blackyster]

Brand name 18650 cells are as safe as lifepo4.

Safe as lifepo4 are
c' rates are similar
low weight and saves space
Ok that convinced me, tell me more

 

[agniusm]

First of, set your goal. Top speed, range, look at the terrain you will drive in. Then go and measure:
1 - your bikes dropouts;
2 - Rear rim diameter (If you will use hub motor wheel)

If you want Alloy wheel with built in motor go here and see if there is something you like (As far as i can tell your bike has 18 inch wheels. Biggest you can get is 17 inch, the rest you could compensate with larger tire):

3 to 8kw motors
http://www.hs-escooter.com/sdp/1012764/4/pl-4958252/0-2743560/17inch_wheel_motor.html

If you would rather have a more stock lock, try here:

1 to 8kw motors
http://www.hs-escooter.com/sdp/1012.../High-Power_Spoke_Motor_for_E-Motorcycle.html

Look around on ES, and decide on motor power for your top speed and power requirements. After that, match the controller.I would recommend 6kW 72V Sabvoton controller over Kelly.
When you have chosen your power levels, look and match your battery pack. This depends on lots of things. If your system will burst 10kW time to time at 72V it will draw 140amps so 15AH battery pack must supply 140/15=10C. If you would increase your battery capacity to say 40Ah, they will need to discharge 140/40=3.5C

 

[agniusm]

Also if you want high discharge lifepo4 cells, go with liyuan cells. They have bolt terminals and are easy to assemble into battery pack but I would suggest no smaller than 20ah

 

[riba2233]

Brand name 18650 cells are as safe as lifepo4.

Safe as lifepo4 are
c' rates are similar
low weight and saves space
Ok that convinced me, tell me more

What more do you need to know?

 

[Blackyster]

First of, set your goal. Top speed, range, look at the terrain you will drive in. Then go and measure:
1 - your bikes dropouts;
2 - Rear rim diameter (If you will use hub motor wheel)

If you want Alloy wheel with built in motor go here and see if there is something you like (As far as i can tell your bike has 18 inch wheels. Biggest you can get is 17 inch, the rest you could compensate with larger tire):

3 to 8kw motors
http://www.hs-escooter.com/sdp/1012764/4/pl-4958252/0-2743560/17inch_wheel_motor.html

If you would rather have a more stock lock, try here:

1 to 8kw motors
http://www.hs-escooter.com/sdp/1012.../High-Power_Spoke_Motor_for_E-Motorcycle.html

Look around on ES, and decide on motor power for your top speed and power requirements. After that, match the controller.I would recommend 6kW 72V Sabvoton controller over Kelly.
When you have chosen your power levels, look and match your battery pack. This depends on lots of things. If your system will burst 10kW time to time at 72V it will draw 140amps so 15AH battery pack must supply 140/15=10C. If you would increase your battery capacity to say 40Ah, they will need to discharge 140/40=3.5C

Well i want the bike for travel to my college, 6 miles from home to college.
Max Range: 25 km(15 miles)
Speed: 35 mph minimum and 45mph top speed
i want something under the 5kw because the laws of my country permits drive without licence BUT this must be specified in the motor sheet
about batteries i don't know which is the better config, i have big mix-up about these

i like these Style of hubmotor http://www.hs-escooter.com/sdp/1012.../High-Power_Spoke_Motor_for_E-Motorcycle.html
because i can lace in 18" rim myself some like this:

 

[agniusm]

That 5kw motor must be same as 6kw motor judging by its weight.
So there you go. 5kw motor, sabvoton 72v 6 kw controller, liyuan 24pcs 20ah cells and you will be blasting:
http://1221498.en.makepolo.com/products/3.2V-20Ah-Hybrid-Supercapacitor-Battery-cell-p69944705.html

 

[Blackyster]

That 5kw motor must be same as 6kw motor judging by its weight.
So there you go. 5kw motor, sabvoton 72v 6 kw controller, liyuan 24pcs 20ah cells and you will be blasting:
http://1221498.en.makepolo.com/products/3.2V-20Ah-Hybrid-Supercapacitor-Battery-cell-p69944705.html

Sabvoton 72v 6 kw controller looks as master badass controller... i like it, and the 5kw motor has verry good style.
Liyuan 20ah cells as good but can't understand why not has more info if are excellent batteries... I understand they are lifepo4 but, why they say Li-ion?

I cant understand what try to say with Blasting and you have tested them batteries?

 

[riba2233]

Lifepo4 is a type of li ion batteries. I would still recommend 18650 panasonic or samsung cells over chinese lifepo4.

 

[Blackyster]

I prefer that cells and headway because is easy to make a pack with these

 

[riba2233]

Ok, suit yourself. There are many ways to connect 18650 cells, and if you can't do it, there are people who can do it for you. In return, you get battery that is three times smaller, half the weight, and a bit cheaper. And I know that there isn't a lot of place available on motorcycle, I've built one myself. I used to have 10Ah of headway, and now I have 40 Ah of Samsung 29e in almost same space.

 

[agniusm]

He'd need something like 40-50AH for those samsungs not to SAG much and for the first time battery builder its a bit more complicated than bolting cells together let alone proper overall pack.

 

[riba2233]

Yes, but he would also need 40 Ah of headway not to sag much... And it's much easier to fit 40Ah of 18650 than headway (it's impossible for headway). He can have someone to build him parallel blocks or whatever, there are options. 40 Ah is not much at all.