Dream commuter bike build

richardm82

10 µW
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
5
bikecommute.pngHi All,

I would like to get your input on feasibility of my dream build for my commute. I am in good shape and would like to do this ride 2-3 times per week.

[*]I want to be able to pedal and get a good workout
[*]Cruise at 30-35 mph with pedaling on the flats
[*]Good speed climbing the mountain (15-20mph?)
[*]One way commute of ~40 miles, I can charge battery at work
[*]I will be riding on some single track over the mountain and trail can get muddy.
[*]Budget ~$3-4k

So far my plan is BBSHD on hardtail mountain bike with full triangle battery like the 52V 30aH battery from em3ev. https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s9p-large-triangle-pack

ZVuOLcI
 
richardm82 said:
bikecommute.pngHi All,

I would like to get your input on feasibility of my dream build for my commute. I am in good shape and would like to do this ride 2-3 times per week.

[*]I want to be able to pedal and get a good workout
[*]Cruise at 30-35 mph with pedaling on the flats
[*]Good speed climbing the mountain (15-20mph?)
[*]One way commute of ~40 miles, I can charge battery at work
[*]I will be riding on some single track over the mountain and trail can get muddy.
[*]Budget ~$3-4k

So far my plan is BBSHD on hardtail mountain bike with full triangle battery like the 52V 30aH battery from em3ev. https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s9p-large-triangle-pack

ZVuOLcI

To cruise at 35mph will be a problem with the bbshd. It doesn't have the required heat capacity at all. You would be doing max power for most of the time. Also you would need a frame that will accept a massive front chainring, 46t minimum.
For 40miles of mixed terrain, going that fast no hailong will cut it, you would need to do a custom battery, need a frame that has a lot of space in the triangle.

If you want to do that, I would suggest looking into x1 pro or cyclone 4kw.

You can get big triangle full suspension bikes easy. I wouldn't settle for a $4k dream build as a hardtail. I've build 5kw full sus with 1.8kwh battery for $2.5.
 
Well, Id say get a motorcycle, except you can't pedal one. You'd be surprised though, how good exercise a longer ride is on a motorcycle or larger scooter. Does wonders for the core strength, and exercises the legs more than you might think. 80 miles a day on a motorcycle is actually quite a workout, but not a cardio type one.

Your plan has two main problems. One is that 35 mph cruise speeds take about 1500-2000w, So you are looking at carrying two very large 1000wh batteries on the bike. This just about requires a cargo bike, or at the very least a stronger touring bike frame. Put 30 pounds of battery weight, plus another 20 or so of motor on most bikes, and they will start to wobble above 30 mph. This wobble gets worse if you induce wobble by pedaling at higher speeds, even the faux pedaling you might be doing once going that fast because its hard to gear a bike to pedal up real power at 35 mph. This is not a 100 m sprint, you need really high gearing to cruise 35 mph and pedal hard.

So there you are, not really able to pedal like you are thinking you will, because of the limitations of most frames side to side stiffness.

These problems are not unsolvable, but in general, you are not going to buy this bike off the rack. Many of us have built bikes that easily cruise 40 mph without pedaling, but generally for shorter distances at that speed, and carrying 15 pounds of battery, often inside the triangle of the frame. Or, if you can learn to weld, then you can build anything you want. This bike I built for example, easily carried 50 pounds of batteries, with 30 pounds of it in the frame trays in front and behind the seatposts. The battery trays framework added the sideways frame stiffness needed to carry huge battery weight. And by the way, I can't weld for shit. But its easy with a cheap wire feed welder. Finished cargo mixte..jpg

The other approach is build for less speed. 28 mph cruise is easily done by most bikes, requiring only 52 tooth front gearing. Then you need only select a frame that can carry some heavy panniers or a very sturdy rack without too much wobble, so you can carry two batteries of 48v 15 ah. That would be for the full 40 miles, about 1500wh.

Another good approach is to start out aiming a bit lower on the distance too. Get a sturdy bike rack for a car, and commute the last 20 miles of the trip, leaving the car someplace halfway. Get on the commute, see what its like, and what it will cost to build that dream bike. Starting out with a bike able to do 28 mph top speed and cruise 25 mph most of the ride is easy. It will require only a single 48v 15 ah battery for 20 miles. 40 miles a day riding will get you all the exercise you need.

You will save about 25 cents a mile on the bike part of the commute, so about 10 bucks into your pocket every single day you ride 40 miles of commute, vs driving it. This will pay for the bike quick enough, and then put more money in your budget to improve it, like a stronger, possibly home built frame for the whole commute.

You CAN do the whole commute eventually, but my advice is to do half of it now, cheaper and easier. Then with some experience, you will better understand what improvements are worth the money and which are not. You might continue do only part of the distance, but keep increasing it bit by bit, as you make your bike more able to carry big weights, and see what effect increasing the weight has on the battery needs. It gets a bit exponential at some point, 5 mph more speed means a ton more battery, and then that added battery weight slows you down, and decreases your efficiency.

This is why the bar is set about where it is for most commuter e bikes, about 25 mph cruise, about 1000 watt hours of battery. This is the sweet spot, where weight and cost and efficiency meet the best. Above that size battery, you start to get out of commuter bikes, and into long distance touring e bikes, that ride 15-20 mph, and can go 80 miles per charge. Commute is harder, you have to get there in reasonable time, at reasonable cost.

Cheapest by far, is a sub 500cc motorcycle. Seriously, about half the cost of ebikes if you buy used moto's. My 400 cc Suzuki comes in at 12 cents a mile, while the very very cheapest e bike I ever ran came in about 25 cents a mile. Car about 50 cents on up depending on the cost of the car.


'
 
You may want to play with the Grin simulator to set your expectations. That ride of Kings Mountain has some steep sections (15%+), but it looks like there is a combination of gearing with the BBSHD that will maintain 15 mph and not overheat.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
 
E-HP said:
You may want to play with the Grin simulator to set your expectations. That ride of Kings Mountain has some steep sections (15%+), but it looks like there is a combination of gearing with the BBSHD that will maintain 15 mph and not overheat.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Thanks for the link. This shows BBSHD as 750W motor, it's my impression you can push at least 1500W through this. I also do not see option for cyc pro or cyclone 3kw motor. I would like to see how these compare.
 
richardm82 said:
Thanks for the link. This shows BBSHD as 750W motor, it's my impression you can push at least 1500W through this. I also do not see option for cyc pro or cyclone 3kw motor. I would like to see how these compare.

That the motor rating, but it will pull as much current as it needs depending on the load (1150 watts in this example; 15% grade, without overheating), but this is using an external controller:

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MBBSHD&mid=true&gear=1&batt=B4823_AC&cont=C35&axis=mph&tr=24&grade=15&tf=46

As I recall, mid drives motors are a recent addition to the simulator, so the choice may be limited.
 
dogman dan said:
Cheapest by far, is a sub 500cc motorcycle. Seriously, about half the cost of ebikes if you buy used moto's. My 400 cc Suzuki comes in at 12 cents a mile, while the very very cheapest e bike I ever ran came in about 25 cents a mile. Car about 50 cents on up depending on the cost of the car.

I'd say that depends on the motorcycle. A couple of mine cost more in tires alone than my air cooled VWs did in total. But yes, the right non-sporting motorcycle can be very cheap to run, and limiting to sub-500cc screens out almost all of the expensive ones.

Important in this case, and what I assumed was the motivation for such an ambitious bicycle commute, is to escape the rat-on-a-treadmill lifestyle that a long trafficky car commute engenders. Motorcycles are great for that, almost as good as bicycles.

With legal lane splitting in California, a small motorcycle might be the very fastest means available. Or you can take a backroad route and leave your stress behind.
 
richardm82 said:
bikecommute.pngHi All,

I would like to get your input on feasibility of my dream build for my commute. I am in good shape and would like to do this ride 2-3 times per week.

[*]I want to be able to pedal and get a good workout
[*]Cruise at 30-35 mph with pedaling on the flats
[*]Good speed climbing the mountain (15-20mph?)
[*]One way commute of ~40 miles, I can charge battery at work
[*]I will be riding on some single track over the mountain and trail can get muddy.
[*]Budget ~$3-4k

So far my plan is BBSHD on hardtail mountain bike with full triangle battery like the 52V 30aH battery from em3ev. https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s9p-large-triangle-pack

ZVuOLcI
I'd say it's possible, but more likely with a 1500w direct drive hub motor, and might need a 2000 watt hour battery. That 1500wh model you linked is a good start (I like em3ev and they offer a smart BMS), but you'd probably have to take it slower. The image below is my 20 mile commute home from work, and I drain my 1000wh battery, but don't contribute as much pedaling as you will. Your map also looks like a lot of stops, while this trip had six.

Open image as a new tab for full resolution:
mDstDOpA1B9fg-Trh_xDXqpJspCGY0-ZZ64jdpqXgsXUyX_hDKvARx0Q4R5yC_bX2NVcuJLSwOVujiKiHdQxlt6GJooHGHFbrXVhLIXBNMejT5l5A3duH9QmrJzEGvqCeuM5nSC1_L5JUZecXWAldopTgodx6kjXpTORB-x2AJgxrr0MSk2elPHijUrJ-m5TdGN6Dh1jnczcqT2ASIBn33ZpDO3K8-08lKnCFRVnhA7MiyvfIBJ9bVoc5cm076XaPuPHFWZPLPIAy_Uc4w68lyMyXTJOa5kVq0GvhHu4_Iqm5e8z6ZKuaD4kLjhhxr9eDsGxHpMz3RdUpl1dauVWbKdUYyBCCcAbT1YdgnsPwOd4CZ21u7aM0z3zQy7aUEiv-r69FFYaLAdnEGhw9t4GPHzLU2Lsbf0Oknp-SRL28BBzTJ49pz2pF8eGNjM0mIV403BnDjlhfA2YfzwTzpg498Q_F7IamPbtmDqw9jSKfbuw1QVzxOz37WUso1HFvwjMbYqv1eHpiYk66G5eOEjBfHP8E_y-5SPR5XkUci8CTh5DvSM7oOpGqfHmhNV6A9fY6UAnPjMmnjmpg_rhNCYWJ4Sz81XqUbl2A5Pfy1wMQhM2fONY8IlZ2ow8SQvBZdyXLhs-caN2nN5W8WEtaPDgWbF6mDQfsYG3Ysb8UD2BO2qzQ55iXUcLLCmc--b3aUXOKW2ZhMBXDU4rDO2j2Yt-oFBZrDU6t9jH0nKVO0g-G86a2_U=w1567-h665-no


6pghOif4ypVlN5ltw6fC8rv3Gq9g3udkZYz22VhQXM_bNq3nG1CojbYmq3RCwMM1G9q590BEzU49dZE8BFm-_hMEEVNOgOC3HIBu5p-naXsQVq1SuSa4yro1dxs_ptezgQyuq9eZ81xHnWyf_7WoIERhvEPsA-hegVM-QSy8Pjdg6xUnk8cn7pYeCvktsLRAgkB9ESiTBThAsLxOBEp2ZZV7MWSxdT6ek3Hv2lqRC_LmdPsHbwRXnVNYuQba6kiadqMLHSMkLCoxg8v_OhbrOThLVCtWzzlSyPzSLVaG3ozQtdS7oxEj5pWOg2HFUEkyELMtT9dGkgeTY1-IBWwIlnoOAx9QvmSG7jZARlA4oeJPijdwPahZ44a10uvsAiYxIAhQkdk3u6vwbAhMQPgATO-YPjA5TaqQKyPNtnmn8P6W0SpnWA6NGdKKoXk4DorkmqAKSwlbIlrf3h5qF_g43LM5UfQBL6QbjfcWuGyPJ1cVqPrw2CPz_K6wfqM3gFw9k_NEvlF3_lewNQjmyr2lH96UORp9C20E_hAKuhzxCX5Jdled5ZAmU8dAOCmhif5fmulGEApf6vPhU2dJeIXPwdCI2Pg_3JRhQaFqHDOcPNlzkFsj6ePxPT4FlJN87amXvaMTlJ7ELgzcwiHUTd7LgRj0tBGsOZt37PuPCRuKY0wMncq2AwlSXOqrCneHj4eBwH_gnM35gRoiRMuli8AAnW90TUSFD77xPEEbVYVUy6Y9bqc=w4160-h2340-no
 
richardm82 said:
E-HP said:
You may want to play with the Grin simulator to set your expectations. That ride of Kings Mountain has some steep sections (15%+), but it looks like there is a combination of gearing with the BBSHD that will maintain 15 mph and not overheat.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Thanks for the link. This shows BBSHD as 750W motor, it's my impression you can push at least 1500W through this. I also do not see option for cyc pro or cyclone 3kw motor. I would like to see how these compare.

They would compare favorably. As expected from a 3000w rated motor over a 1000w rated one.
https://youtu.be/YUHUDEtQqjU?t=71

I would not recommend the cyclone 3kw motor, the advantage is too small over the bbshd. There is a cyclone 4kw motor, with a 30% bigger core. It would be better suited. The cyc x1 motor is filled with thermal epoxy so it has a good power handling ability for its weight and size (smaller than bbshd).
 
Tommm said:
I would not recommend the cyclone 3kw motor, the advantage is too small over the bbshd. There is a cyclone 4kw motor, with a 30% bigger core. It would be better suited.

The 4kW Cyclone is awfully wide for someone who actually pedals. I think it's wide enough impair most people.
 
Balmorhea said:
Tommm said:
I would not recommend the cyclone 3kw motor, the advantage is too small over the bbshd. There is a cyclone 4kw motor, with a 30% bigger core. It would be better suited.

The 4kW Cyclone is awfully wide for someone who actually pedals. I think it's wide enough impair most people.

Yea, he would need wide offset pedals and a carefully selected bike (likewise as he would because of the frame battery). Me, I'm used to very wide pedals, my downhill bike with its 92mm bb and offset cranks feel cramped.
 
Yeah, its wide alright. Most people who get up to there would not pedal much, if at all.

The BBSHD is a nice setup, or look into the MAC geared motor, but I would probably just do a direct drive mxus 3000W on a full suspension, and laced into a smaller diameter wheel, perhaps even a fat bike to get the cushy'ness.




Balmorhea said:
The 4kW Cyclone is awfully wide for someone who actually pedals. I think it's wide enough impair most people.
 
markz said:
Yeah, its wide alright. Most people who get up to there would not pedal much, if at all.

The BBSHD is a nice setup, or look into the MAC geared motor, but I would probably just do a direct drive mxus 3000W on a full suspension, and laced into a smaller diameter wheel, perhaps even a fat bike to get the cushy'ness.


Balmorhea said:
The 4kW Cyclone is awfully wide for someone who actually pedals. I think it's wide enough impair most people.

With a full suspension I don’t think I can fit enough battery. I’ll look into the 3000w mxus. I can pedal with this? I haven’t looked too much into direct drive because I read they don’t handle big hills too well.
 
Tommm said:
I would not recommend the cyclone 3kw motor, the advantage is too small over the bbshd. There is a cyclone 4kw motor, with a 30% bigger core. It would be better suited. The cyc x1 motor is filled with thermal epoxy so it has a good power handling ability for its weight and size (smaller than bbshd).

You forget that it's much cheaper.
 
Tommm said:
richardm82 said:
E-HP said:
You may want to play with the Grin simulator to set your expectations. That ride of Kings Mountain has some steep sections (15%+), but it looks like there is a combination of gearing with the BBSHD that will maintain 15 mph and not overheat.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Thanks for the link. This shows BBSHD as 750W motor, it's my impression you can push at least 1500W through this. I also do not see option for cyc pro or cyclone 3kw motor. I would like to see how these compare.

They would compare favorably. As expected from a 3000w rated motor over a 1000w rated one.
https://youtu.be/YUHUDEtQqjU?t=71

I would not recommend the cyclone 3kw motor, the advantage is too small over the bbshd. There is a cyclone 4kw motor, with a 30% bigger core. It would be better suited. The cyc x1 motor is filled with thermal epoxy so it has a good power handling ability for its weight and size (smaller than bbshd).

Can you pedal with cyc x1?
 
khorse said:
You forget that it's much cheaper.
The price difference between cyclone 3kw and 4kw is about $50-70.

richardm82 said:
Can you pedal with cyc x1?

Generally yes, maybe not when you are going super fast though. But on uphills and starting off, yes.
You realize to hold 35mph you need 1500-2000watts, and your legs can add a sustained 250-350w depending on fitness level. At some point it makes sense to forget about pedalling in favour of building a superior throttle bike.
 
Ahh, so you ride. I need not tell you about motorcycles. Yeah, they can be plenty expensive. My price range is sub 2000 bucks, for a utility ride.

Ride for highest thrills, ride for highest visual appeal, ride to show your dick size, yeah, then it costs.

Many of us here are notoriously frugal as well as trying hard to be green, and would not burn the gas a small scooter would burn. I'm just a cheap bastard, and I ride this around town a lot, grocery getting, plus trips to ride the steepest curviest roads I can find in New Mexico.

I paid $1800 for this 400cc scoot, and in this state insurance and license is under 200 bucks a year. Tires are a regular cost, but not so pricy for this size. Its incredibly comfortable on 200 mile rides, with its full fairing that even keeps your feet dry. Seriously, one of these would be your perfect commuter.

Only two drawbacks, one is nobody will ever steal it. The other is nobody will steal it because it makes you look gay. :lol: Gets about 65 mpg at 55 mph, can go 85 mph. Just enough power to run the freeway, but not enough to cost you gas, or get you into weekly tickets because it goes 150 mph. Burgman 400.jpg

Definitely not as green as an e bike, but cheaper. I'm more cheap than green. Great for commuting though, because you can ride it warmer, and drier than most small motorcycles. Way better than typical 150 cc scoots, that can't do the freeway at all.
 
If I am not mistaken, I believe some of the Endless Sphere Costa Rican Expats are riding direct drives in hilly area's.

Well if you lace the wheel into a smaller diameter wheel you get more torque, but you go slower so you'd need to get a lower Turn Count motor = higher rpm per volt, which means the windings inside the motor are shorter and thicker, which means you can dump more ampere's into them. Obviously there is a balance between having too small a diameter wheel laced into the hub motor, with its handling and everything. But the direct drives are simple and cheap with one rotating assembly, unlike a geared motor. Plus, you can use Statorade inside the motor for even more heat soak capabilities. Then add some aluminum fins between the flanges for yet even more heat shed.

Some have gone to a 24" wheel laced hub motor, others a 20", those are bicycle sizing. Build your wheel up into scooter/motorcycle rims which are heavier, but they can take more abuse. The 20" will need radial lacing of the spokes with the large diameter hub motor. Then too if you run out of juice, there is the drag factor where geared are freewheeling.

I'd go that route, over a MAC 1500 Geared hub motor.
But the first choice, depending on your hill situation, should be mid drive.
1) Mid Drive
2) Direct Drive
3) Geared
2 and 3 are tied.

If you do go Direct Drive, look into the Kelly Controllers, or Sabatov's because then you can get a ton of power out of them. Ideal setup IMO for dd would be laced into 24" but moto rim/spokes, so thats 17" moto rim which = 24" bicycle rim. Moto tire and motorcycle tube. Ultimate flat protection!




richardm82 said:
With a full suspension I don’t think I can fit enough battery. I’ll look into the 3000w mxus. I can pedal with this? I haven’t looked too much into direct drive because I read they don’t handle big hills too well.
 
Not sure where you read DD can't handle big hills. The typical 48v dd kit can climb fine, provided you don't weigh 300 pounds. Iv'e easily done 8% grades ten miles long on stock kits. As I said, a typical 48v kit will do you fine for a partial commute, including the hills. You can start with that, then decide if you want to spend enough to make a bike able to do 40 miles at 35 mph. What costs you to do that, is battery. You can easily drop 2 thou on a battery that big.

It's too big a load on the "bike" kits that kills them on hills. For those that weigh 200 pounds, no problems at all with most "bike" kits. Cargo bikes, or those that need to climb 15% grades at 5 mph can benefit from mid drive. I know trails hard to ride at 3 mph, so rocky, and that kind of trails will kill a dd for sure.

But "bike" kits don't go 35 mph. Motors like that muxus are what I call moped grade, or in some cases, Illegal homemade motorcycles with pedals. Those homemade motorcycles can do a lot, but they cost more than a cheap commuter motorcycle.

Actually, what would be cool is rent a storage unit halfway. Ride a motorcycle to it over the hill, then cruise in the last flat 20 miles on a 25 mph ebike, that's cheap. There is a lot of budget in ten bucks a day savings.
 
30-35mph for extended travel on the level would require a minimum 1500w output motor. (overvolted 1000w?)
Main inconsistency is your desire for effective pedal contribution.
Proper (effective) pedaling position requires a reasonible upright position that creates more watts of wind resistance than sustainable pedal contribution (at 30mph+)
High butt - crouched over bars (race bike) position would help ... but not recommended for "commuting".

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Low seat and laid down position, (electric seat raise-lower in development), and pedal assisting for hills, sounds almost feasible but ideally ...

"Dream commuter bike build"

Recumbent allows effective pedal assist as well as much lighter battery and smaller motor! - requires more pedal assist on hills (smaller motor)
Teardrop trailer for aerodynamics, luggage and battery?
Battery hidden in trailer and shrouded hub motor - for "Stealth"?

Recumbent tips:
Marker lights, flash-strobe, forward rear and side
Raise able mast with lights, flag, while in, or near, traffic. - be seen!
.
 
I find it a little hilarious when people start recommending DD motors and recumbents for a guy who wants to hit single track.
 
Grantmac said:
I find it a little hilarious when people start recommending DD motors and recumbents for a guy who wants to hit single track.

Direct drive motors can be pressed into that role, to judge by how many e-dirtbikes have them. Recumbents, on the other hand....
 
"Recumbent" was tendered, separately, as fitting the "Dream commuter bike build".
 
Well I'm so stupid I was still talking about an 80 mile a day commute. John in CR's bike would be ideal, if you could ride in California under Costa Rica law.

I keep talking motorcyles and scoots, simply because they would be a legal vehicle, and able to do that ride much quicker. A 35 mph street e bike is illegal in Califa.
 
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