Driving a hub motor using human power

[steveo]

Hey everyone

Some of you may of seen my x6 kmx trike build which ive recently completed

One of my challenges is making this "street legal" and making it capable of being moved using human power

I dont want to use chains.. Gears etc to drive the rear wheel

I was thinking of gearing a little dc motor geared high enough that when pedeling it would generate enough power to sping the hub motor in the rear

Any thoughts? Or ideas?

I want to mount all the componets to the crank post on the kmx if possible

Steveo

 

[cal3thousand]

Hey everyone

Some of you may of seen my x6 kmx trike build which ive recently completed

One of my challenges is making this "street legal" and making it capable of being moved using human power

I dont want to use chains.. Gears etc to drive the rear wheel

I was thinking of gearing a little dc motor geared high enough that when pedeling it would generate enough power to sping the hub motor in the rear

Any thoughts? Or ideas?

I want to mount all the componets to the crank post on the kmx if possible

Steveo

Do you have an estimate of the losses you would have going from the dc motor? And how would you control the voltage? would it need it?

 

[speedmd]

Is there a need to generate power. All you would need is some sort of crank load/power sensor and limit the output power to the hub to match the pedal forces. As long as you are not amplifying the power it would meet the human drive intent.

 

[John in CR]

The hardest part would seem to be getting the output of a small brushed motor to pack voltage. I've had plans for a while now to do such an "electronic chain", and I want to use a small RC motor and a little 6fet controller set permanently to regen.

 

[steveo]

hmm..

i never thought about using sole the pedel assist sensor to drive the bike..

this might make the easyiest soloution... i really would like some resistance on the crank .. but not nessasary...

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-bike-faq.shtml

i'm gonna read through some of this .. but good to read about for those of us doing our best to keep the bikes "legal"


-steveo

 

[steveo]

Hmm..

Would a pedel assist sensor qualify as muscular power .. so no chain at all .. just PAS

"if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases"

 

[Ypedal]

dude.. and X6.... and " power assist " lol.... be easier to weld a VIN off a junked motorcycle and register it with a plate hehe..

 

[speedmd]

As long as you are taking out only what you put in, it should meet intent. You would have to load the crank and measure output in some way. You could use alternate propulsion mechanisms also. Push -pull etc..etc..

 

[steveo]

dude.. and X6.... and " power assist " lol.... be easier to weld a VIN off a junked motorcycle and register it with a plate hehe..

technically an x6 can be legal.... if you setup the bike properly! I've made a list of what i need so far to get it there.....

-PAS sensor -- to "muscular power the bicycle"
-Set one speed mode in software to limit speed to 32km/h
-Bears a label that is permanently affixed by manufacturer ( this doesn't make sense... what about a ebay kit.. are we then all SOL ? )
-"Has a total continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of each motor of 500w or less".. hopefully the speed limiter will get it somewhat close LOL..
-hand brake (5v cut off) power ceases if the hand brake is applied...

-steveo

 

[Ypedal]

i sure would love to take it for a rip .. uhm.... off-road .. tho !!

 

[Chalo]

dude.. and X6.... and " power assist " lol.... be easier to weld a VIN off a junked motorcycle and register it with a plate hehe..

That's my take too. What you have isn't a bicycle at all. Trying to make it maybe-barely-sorta qualify as one is just exactly the sort of quasi-fraud that makes a lot of people say, "to heck with 'em", and ask for a blanket ban on all e-bikes. It''s like those stupid Chinese scooters, only even more obviously not a bicycle.

Your thing isn't even a moped, because it doesn't conform to moped limitations either. It's a motorcycle, albeit a weird one, and if you want to be street legal, you should register it as a motorcycle. Why should you get special treatment compared to other motorcyclists?

 

[steveo]

dude.. and X6.... and " power assist " lol.... be easier to weld a VIN off a junked motorcycle and register it with a plate hehe..

That's my take too. What you have isn't a bicycle at all. Trying to make it maybe-barely-sorta qualify as one is just exactly the sort of quasi-fraud that makes a lot of people say, "to heck with 'em", and ask for a blanket ban on all e-bikes. It''s like those stupid Chinese scooters, only even more obviously not a bicycle.

Your thing isn't even a moped, because it doesn't conform to moped limitations either. It's a motorcycle, albeit a weird one, and if you want to be street legal, you should register it as a motorcycle. Why should you get special treatment compared to other motorcyclists?

So wait a second, your comparing my trike to those chinese scooters? And you should get your facts straight.. as much as i'm not a fan of those chinese scooters most of them do meet the definition of a ebike in ontario.... have you even looked at the link i posted?


you wrote...
"Trying to make it maybe-barely-sorta qualify as one is just exactly the sort of quasi-fraud that makes a lot of people say, "to heck with 'em", and ask for a blanket ban on"

maybe-barely-sorta qualify ??

i'm trying to make it fully qualify as a legal ebike... yes its a strech to get it there .. and i know that... just because i have a x6 hub on my bike.. makes it no different then people here running a 9c motor etc

both will surpass the legal limit of 500w, your basically implying that majority of the ebike folks on the fourm register there bikes as motorcycles

"special treatment"

did i ask for any?..... and fyi.. i may have a fast bike... doesn't mean i ride like a moron..

-steveo

 

[cal3thousand]

dude.. and X6.... and " power assist " lol.... be easier to weld a VIN off a junked motorcycle and register it with a plate hehe..

That's my take too. What you have isn't a bicycle at all. Trying to make it maybe-barely-sorta qualify as one is just exactly the sort of quasi-fraud that makes a lot of people say, "to heck with 'em", and ask for a blanket ban on all e-bikes. It''s like those stupid Chinese scooters, only even more obviously not a bicycle.

Your thing isn't even a moped, because it doesn't conform to moped limitations either. It's a motorcycle, albeit a weird one, and if you want to be street legal, you should register it as a motorcycle. Why should you get special treatment compared to other motorcyclists?

He's doing his best to make it conform to the laws! This is the one guy you should be praising because it would be totally easier for him to make just a monster bike and not care about the legalities. And we know he's got the skills to make a "e-moto" if he wanted.

 

[Animalector]

going back to the electric chain concept why couldn't you have a high toque wind hub motor hooked to a dedicated 6fet controller set to Regen wouldn't this give the necessary volts at a reasonable input speed?

 

[John in CR]

...high toque wind hub motor...

There is no such thing. There are slower winds and faster winds. Both are capable of identical torque if they are otherwise identical, so for a given voltage slower wind motors are lower power motors.

 

[fechter]

A while back somebody used one of those geared brushed MY1018 or similar motor as a generator tied to the chain ring.
When the pedal speed gets up to where the generated voltage equals the pack voltage, the pedaling resistance starts to increase very sharply. The trick is to gear the motor to the pack voltage so the cadence is reasonable. You pretty much need to use a battery in this setup, but I suppose if you could supply the drive motor controller logic from a separate supply (wouldn't take much current), you could feed the main FET rails directly from the generator.

This arrangement is hideously inefficient, but has some advantages, like you can input power from the pedals at any speed, including stopped. I wish I could find the thread, it's buried somewhere. Peter in San Francisco, but forgot his username.
Here's a picture of it (might jog somebody's memory).

 

[speedmd]

If your stuck on generating electricity also, I would think with a good slow wind with a suitable flywheel setup may be a comfy fit to rid the main drive chain. Would be nice to be able to vary the torque settings on the charge / inverter side to get the right feel pedaling. If your only getting back what you put in, who cares how big or ugly the thing is.

 

[Tommy L]

I've been pondering this for a couple of years now too.
You could pedal a small generator to provide 0-5v only to act like a throttle.

The MTO says:
-has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
-is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
-is capable of being propelled by muscular power,

Keep the pedals. If you use your hands like a wheel chair on the front tires, you've got the "Propelled by muscular pwr" covered :wink:
The MTO is very vague. Doesn't say that you have to pedal it to make it go.

Not sure how the Erokit is doing it, but it sure looks like you pedal a generator.
Also, Pedalling a generator say 250 watts, I'm going to experiment with charging, to see if load decreases with charging Lead vs LiFePO4
vs RC LiCo vs Super Capacitors. If Super Caps are over half full, apparently the resistance is way down during a charge :wink:

In the third vid at 2:05, his cat nearly gets fried approaching his charged Super Caps.
It you go to Patricks site, he charges Super Caps up with solar and hand generators etc....

Tommy L sends....

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