E Bike Automatic Transmission

Joined
Jun 25, 2010
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355
Well, it looks like Nuvinci is producing an Automatic Transmission type hub. Very interesting. Any reviews yet?
http://www.evelo.com/electric-bicycles/luna/
Harmony NuVinci .jpg
 
If you search the forums for "nuvinci" you'll see lots of discussion about the various versions they've been making for years. ;)

There is also existing discussion about the Harmony version.

I think some people already have them on their bikes, here on ES.
 
I tried it on a Kalkhoff. It wouldn't change gear for me, but, strangely, it worked perfectly for my friend, who tried it immediately after me, and he said it worked OK for him. He weighed about 65kg and I 100kg.
I think they've made some changes since then (2 years ago), but I think the problem is how much force is needed to change gear under load. I have a manual Nuvinci on one of my bikes, where you can feel the difference in effort to change gear.
 
eBikes have avoided being "mopeds" in MA because they don't have automatic transmissions. Add a Harmony in some locations, and you just made a moped. A moped in MA needs a $40 every 2-year registration, cannot ride on recreational paths, you must be over 16, have a driver's license (can't drive it if you have a suspended or revoked license) and you must wear a DOT motorcycle helmet.

According to Massachusetts law, a moped is a "motorized bicycle." In order to be classified as a moped, the vehicle must:

Have a cylinder capacity of no more than 50 cubic centimeters.
Have an automatic transmission.
Be capable of a maximum speed of no more than 30 miles per hour.
Comply with all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards.
A moped sticker, issued by the RMV, must be affixed to the moped. This sticker will not be issued unless the vehicle meets the above requirements.
 
If you go to the trouble of meeting all of the regulations to meet the definition of a moped, you can legally ride in traffic up to 45-MPH in most of the USA (apparently 30-MPH in Mass.).

It is interesting that there is an automatic transmission available to bicycles now, which would help some builders who wanted to legally qualify their E-bike as a moped. The question remains as to how much power this transmission can take, and for how long.
 
Nelson37 said:
I would absolutely not read that law to say what you have proposed.

It does say that a moped must have an automatic transmission, but, it does NOT say that any bicycle with an automatic transmission MUST be a moped.

Clearly the intent of the law is to regulate motorized bikes and find a way to not require a motorcycle registration since they go under 30 and are low in power.

Intent aside, even by the letter of the law, any motorized bike is a moped in MA if it goes under 30, is no more than 50cc, and has an automatic transmission. I would argue that an electric motor is 0cc, and so is "no more than" 50cc. Even by equivalent power output, 50cc is around 3000 watts.

The only reason why a regular e-bike is not a moped in MA is due to them normally having either no transmission or a manual transmission. When you add an automatic transmission, you blur that line.

If a judge asked you to explain why your e-bike with an automatic transmission was not a motorized bike meeting the definition of a moped under MA law, what would you say?
 
Another defense is that the Federal electric-bike law supposedly supersedes state law (not sure this is true). So if your bike has an automatic transmission but no more than 750 watts and cannot go over 20 mph, then the state has to call it a bicycle.

If MA re-wrote their moped law, it seems certain they would cap the speed at 20 mph.
 
it not cheap... it only price i can find $1,280.00 :shock: i hope they made it better this time, but it sound like ony 350 watt motors .. the best is sill rohloff speed hub. to what i know.
http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/enthusiasts/misc/transmissions/nuvinci-n380-with-harmony-controller.html
 
I actually just bought the kit linked to from Dillinger. I'll post a review when I have it installed.
 
rsilvers said:
Another defense is that the Federal electric-bike law supposedly supersedes state law (not sure this is true). So if your bike has an automatic transmission but no more than 750 watts and cannot go over 20 mph, then the state has to call it a bicycle.

If MA re-wrote their moped law, it seems certain they would cap the speed at 20 mph.


I know this thread isn't about legality but I just had to mention that cops are the ones who decide whether your bike is legal or not. Living in Mass and riding daily for years. I can guarantee you they wouldn't know and could probably care less about what type of transmission your bike has. They also don't care about how many watts it is and wouldn't be able to determine that either.

The number one thing they care about is how you are riding and a close second is how fast you are going.
 
rsilvers said:
Another defense is that the Federal electric-bike law supposedly supersedes state law (not sure this is true). So if your bike has an automatic transmission but no more than 750 watts and cannot go over 20 mph, then the state has to call it a bicycle.

If MA re-wrote their moped law, it seems certain they would cap the speed at 20 mph.

I'm afraid the State and local government can call and electric bike anything they want to. States and Locals make MV laws. In Alabama any bike with any motor is a Moped and needs a license, registration and a moped test, and insurance.
otherDoc
 
rsilvers said:
Another defense is that the Federal electric-bike law supposedly supersedes state law (not sure this is true). So if your bike has an automatic transmission but no more than 750 watts and cannot go over 20 mph, then the state has to call it a bicycle.

If MA re-wrote their moped law, it seems certain they would cap the speed at 20 mph.

Federal does over-ride state, just look at the pot-head laws. Seems contradictory to me, but everythings done in court. Seems like the small dog gets bent over with sand, and let the big dog slide. Just got to look at tax law and tax cases for that.


I know this thread isn't about legality but I just had to mention that cops are the ones who decide whether your bike is legal or not.
Wrong yet again, the pigs only resposibility is to write up tickets to pay for their fancy air conditioned cars and their job benefits. Its then your resposibility to lose a days work or more to hit up the court room. Then the judges job to see if its legal or not, and the judges are sometimes wrong, just depends on the defendant and how the judge feels.

The number one thing they care about is how you are riding and a close second is how fast you are going.
True to some extent, but again it comes down to do they want to do the paper work.

I would say if you are riding appropriately, there is no reason for pigs to look at you twice. A bicycle is a bicycle, a motorbike is a motorbike. Go one way or go the other way. Follow the law or dont. I did a cursory glance at my laws, its 49cc or 750W in Alberta. Most of the time on a DMV violation, you cant drive no motorized anything, mower, ebike, seadoo, boat, train, airplane.

I would go with the Nuvinci on a mid-drive, but those things are way to expensive. I wouldnt bother, just get a cheaper geared hub.
 
Wikipedia does a section of laws by state....and you can not have a transmission that you shift...(which is completely nuts because most bikes have cassettes...this means mid drive is no good.....also a lot of states allow 1 to three horsepower gas engines...but apparently no harmony.....go figure. ....)..so only the nuvinci harmony is legal. But they don't sell the harmony by itself...u have to buy a crazy $$ bike.....
Now what about harmony input ratio...is it 44t front 22t rear. Apparently first is no reduction and top gear is one crank 4 turns at wheel...
I do like the endless gear ratio idea....its cool.a lot of possibility. ..and price is really no different than any other igh
 
Does the auto CVT give engine braking??

In CA motorized bikes must be automatics.. I built an automatic 2-speed similar to rc nitro cars. Two chains, one freewheel, and one centrifugal clutch on the output shaft. The response is good and you have engine braking in the only gear you really need to use it; top gear.

http://motorbicycling.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80469&d=1446098706

One of the problems with multi-chain transmissions is that every gear you roll in, all the chains have to turn. So although my top gear torque line is all left side, it still has to drive the 1st gear chain even though it's freewheeling.

And any misalignment between shafts makes me lose around 15% of efficiency. When I first set it up I was going over 50 but now I noticed that over time, the washers holding the bearings have bent and let the shafts move a little, causing alignment to go out, and chains have started kinking up. My max speed is about 45 now (on level ground).

This transmission is very nice to ride; however. When just getting out of the neighborhood in 1st gear I just give short bursts of power, and coast the bike with the engine idling mostly when going slow or in traffic. When trucking up a hill it's on the first gear most of the time, and you don't need no engine braking there! Then on top gear it is full on motorcycle feel; engine braking and great response.

It is my opinion that improving on this design is the way to go. I have a design for it already using internals from an IGH or similar and only one jackshaft. Top gear would be same as a jackshafted single speed; like this:

http://motorbicycling.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79691&d=1441050787

The planetary gear set and clutch would be inside the diameter of that large pulley in the middle.
 
e bike auto matic transmision....you know it seems the cvt for these pocket minis is near the power of alot of these ebike engines....they are saying one to three horsepower... just not alot of info on the those 49cc pocket bikes...never seem to show many stats on the google response of ratio and i have noticed they are calling cvt incorrectly sometimes chain driven sprockets that are not increasing in teeth/pitch...... i can't even find out how much they weigh....i have heard that the springs on the pulleys,activators, take off around2300 rpm but that people have taken them out entirely or put very light tension springs on them to engage at less than 100 rpm....i don't know since we are talking about auto trans here anyone got any info? and how the hell would you mount one? could you mount multiple ones? i have seen ebay sell them for 80 bucks or so..two would be 160bucks......i have heard the pitch may vary from a two to one ...then slowly go from two to two ratio(direct drive i guesse.... putting these after the motor with a gear reduction and then ran through a cassette would give you a pretty wild gear ratio and the ability to just sit in a gear...how does the math work...

unite engine say ten to one reduction..... say after reduction 350 rpm.... then run it through a 2 to 1 cvt gives me 20 to one.....then one more cvt gives me 40 to 1 ratio.....wait hold on.....that does no good that means wheel rpm is like 12 rpm...so then what i start up my bike in high gear?
 
Meanwhile, back to Nuvinci CVTs, I would be interested to know how efficient the new ones are. I installed their older models (developers kit) on two of my trikes along with a diy hub motor as a mid drive. While I love the trikes, I can hardly pedal them without using the motor and I use two to three times as many Watts when compared to simple hub drives or my trike with a BBS02 (crank drive) and a standard 9 speed rear derailleur.

The good thing about the Nuvinci equipped trikes is that I can let anyone ride them and they can't hurt them, since they are always in the right gear. The BBS02 trike could be ruined in one trip around the block by either overheating the unit by running in too high a gear, or breaking components by hitting the throttle too hard and applying too much power too quickly, particularly when taking off while in a higher gear.
 
sorry rassy... didn't know this was a convo about only nuvinci..i have moved the cvt topic of chaing pitch cvt moped style to a different disucssion....cvt the moped type.
 
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