E-bike conversion newb (Canada)

[someguynamedbob]

Hello all, I just discovered the topic of e-bike conversions and I'm excited to convert my old bike however I have a few questions (I've highlighted the points that are probably important)

Goal: Add a motor to my mountain bike -- probably rear hub, direct drive kit?
My commute here in Toronto, Ontario is about 7KM each way, so all I need is about 14KM of range between recharging. The terrain is mostly flat so I don't have to worry about hills. I would like to be able to attain speeds of 35-50KMPH (I realize the legal limit is 32KMPH so let's say I'm only interested in off-road use). I weigh about 185lbs.

My mountain bike doesn't have any labels so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is but it looks a lot like:

I've taken off the rear tire and there's about 5.25" of clearance between the dropouts. The wheel size is 26x1.95. It has 21 speeds (3 in front, 7 in back).

As you can see I'm not looking for long range (14KM) but fairly high speed (35-50KMPH). The other concern is price -- it seems like ebikes.ca is highly recommended on these forums (especially for canadians) but when I priced out a kit+battery it came out to around $1500, and I was hoping for something much cheaper. I'm not in a rush so I don't mind waiting for a few weeks if the best option is buying from China, but really I'd like to consider all options

Any recomendations for a kit that matches my criteria?

Thank you all for your time

 

[dilkes]

Hey Bob
From another Toronto guy.
Two thoughts:

• You might consider joining our Toronto Electric Riders Association (TERA). Over 1000 members and rising. Members have both open-frame style ebikes (ready-made or converted with kit add-ons) and scooter-style ebikes. Web site is at http://www.meetup.com/Electric-Bicycles/.
• One of our TERA sponsors is Golden Motor Canada (http://www.goldenmotor.ca/) who offer some excellent kits. They have a local agent here in Toronto who provides excellent customer service and will look after his customer...Not necessarily the cheapest, but takes the risk out of it. They also offer a discount to TERA members.

 

[johnnyz383]

There are many aspects to what you want to do.
A hub motor would be the easiest route. The problem is where to place the battery so that it is not unsafe. When i first converted my bike to an ebike 3 years ago, i put a 48 volt lifepo4 batt on a rack behind the rear seat. The bike was nearly unrideable. Putting the batteries anywhere near the front is worse. Plus, you have the controller to worry about. I finally made space in the middle of the bike frame by cutting and rewelding..this made the bike much more balanced and easy to ride. Max at ebike.ca has a new bike frame that he designed to house headways...you might want to check it out
You could also buy an etrike....


John

 

[motomech]

Hello all, I just discovered the topic of e-bike conversions and I'm excited to convert my old bike however I have a few questions (I've highlighted the points that are probably important)

Goal: Add a motor to my mountain bike -- probably rear hub, direct drive kit?
My commute here in Toronto, Ontario is about 7KM each way, so all I need is about 14KM of range between recharging. The terrain is mostly flat so I don't have to worry about hills. I would like to be able to attain speeds of 35-50KMPH (I realize the legal limit is 32KMPH so let's say I'm only interested in off-road use). I weigh about 185lbs.

My mountain bike doesn't have any labels so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is but it looks a lot like:

I've taken off the rear tire and there's about 5.25" of clearance between the dropouts. The wheel size is 26x1.95. It has 21 speeds (3 in front, 7 in back).

As you can see I'm not looking for long range (14KM) but fairly high speed (35-50KMPH). The other concern is price -- it seems like ebikes.ca is highly recommended on these forums (especially for canadians) but when I priced out a kit+battery it came out to around $1500, and I was hoping for something much cheaper. I'm not in a rush so I don't mind waiting for a few weeks if the best option is buying from China, but really I'd like to consider all options

Any recomendations for a kit that matches my criteria?

Thank you all for your time

It's not that hard(or expensive)to reach those speeds, but to go that fast with a reasonable degree of safety is something else again.
Your no=name bike makes me leery.
Your hard-tail bike makes my butt hurt to think about hitting a pot-hole at those speeds.
Why so fast if you are only going 7 Km? Are you planning to mix it up with cars?
If so, you need to up your budget and up-grade your ride.
A quality full suspension MB with at least a disc. up frt. would be prudent. Treks and Giants are probably the easiest to convert.
If you are ok with studying and getting involved with your batteries, you can save money by going with Lipo from Hobby King. The bricks are small and powerful and with the limited range you are talking about, they would be fairly easy to mount.
If you are ok with a big motor(read: no stealth), there is a very popular low-buck DD kit on Ebay.
Trust me on this one, the bike in your pic. would be suitable for a mini-motor conversion reaching 30 Kmh. No more.
To go faster, you need a better mount.

 

[teslanv]

I would echo motomech on the bike upgrade. Get a chromo frame with at least front suspension and disc brakes. 26" wheels are the most common for kits.
Here is the eBay kit DD rear Hub.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231132763662

 

[johnnyz383]

I would echo motomech on the bike upgrade. Get a chromo frame with at least front suspension and disc brakes. 26" wheels are the most common for kits.
Here is the eBay kit DD rear Hub.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/231132763662

Except for the lipo batteries... absoloutely NOT for the beginner on an ebike. The explosive nature of these things is too inherently dangerous should he accidentally short circuit, overcharge or undercharge...then the added complexity of installing a bms and charging system....only need 22-24 headways for a 36 volt system.


John

 

[teslanv]

I didn't comment on LiPo, actually. But since you brought it up, I would just point out that I chose LiPo as an ebike noob. I did my homework, though and use appropriate safety precautions. It is the least expensive way to get a battery set up, even factoring in the balance charger and wiring.

 

[dogman dan]

What you want is pretty easy. 50 kph on a hardtail would kick my ass, but I have a destroyed lower back. That type of bike is ideal for a first time rear hubmotor conversion.

If you are fine in the back, nearly any cheap bike can safely be ridden at 50kph/30mph. Brakes won't save you, at that speed you need to ride smart. But if is easier to ride smart and safe closer to 35kph.

Be sure your brakes work as good as possible, by getting new pads or at least making sure they line up well.

To hit 50kph, you will need 48v, and one of the faster 48v 1000w hubmotor kits found on ebay. Wesenwell has the dope on which vendors to buy from on those kits.

The battery discussion always goes on forever. What's best for you depends a lot on how much money you want to spend. If you can spend more than $400 on just the battery, the choices widen a lot.

 

[johnnyz383]

What you want is pretty easy. 50 kph on a hardtail would kick my ass, but I have a destroyed lower back. That type of bike is ideal for a first time rear hubmotor conversion.

If you are fine in the back, nearly any cheap bike can safely be ridden at 50kph/30mph. Brakes won't save you, at that speed you need to ride smart. But if is easier to ride smart and safe closer to 35kph.

Be sure your brakes work as good as possible, by getting new pads or at least making sure they line up well.

To hit 50kph, you will need 48v, and one of the faster 48v 1000w hubmotor kits found on ebay. Wesenwell has the dope on which vendors to buy from on those kits.

The battery discussion always goes on forever. What's best for you depends a lot on how much money you want to spend. If you can spend more than $400 on just the battery, the choices widen a lot.

Sorry dogman, i disagree... its like the guy who has a kick ass muscle car and says its a 13 second car in the quarter mile only to find that once he gets there its actually a high 14 sec car. " Well, it sure felt faster"....
Attaining 50 kmh is not easy on 48 volts and here is why:

Here is a chart of the RPM vs Voltage of a Cromotor. That is to say the HEMI of all hub motors. So lets say he puts on a Crystalyte hs3525. This is wound for more torque than speed so its specs are much less than the cromotor.

50V
16″ wheel = 20mph / 32kph @ 17A
20″ wheel = 25mph / 40kph @ 23A
22″ wheel = 27mph / 43kph @ 27A
24″ wheel = 29mph / 46kph @ 32A
26″ wheel = 30mph / 48kph @ 36A
29″ wheel = 33mph / 52kph @ 44A

As you can see in a 26 inch wheel with a FULL 50 volts and NO SAG the cromotor wont do 50 KPH...not to mention that almost every hub motor will do less than this speed (except the HS3540 which is what i use on my trike).

So now he has sag from a nominal 52 volt pack...lets say at full throttle he has 6 volts of sag ( if hes very lucky!) so now were down to 46 volts.....not a chance is he going to see 50 kph.

Just thought i would illustrate this, as ive built many different bikes and trikes and the speed you think your going to get usually isnt what it does....


John
Arctrike.com

 

[teslanv]

How about high amps and a 6Turn motor. Pretty sure you can get 50 klicks that way. The ebikes.ca simulator could give you a close estimate.

 

[johnnyz383]

How about high amps and a 6Turn motor. Pretty sure you can get 50 klicks that way. The ebikes.ca simulator could give you a close estimate.

How high in amps we talking?...lol...you can see the cromotor required 36 amps to go 48 kph and thats assuming no wind, level grade.
I could be wrong but of the commercially available hub motors, the HS 3540 has the highest rpm vs voltage that i know of, just slightly more than the cromotor and the only way i got more than 50 kph was with a mid drive running a 52 volt lifepo4 pulling 50 amps, 60 Kph.

My latest set up is the trike with 78 volts nominal, HS3540 Lyen 18 fet Controller, pulling 50 amps at 73 volts...around 70 Kph, and thats better areo than any bike. The ebikes calc estimated 74 Kph but like i said there are many variables that will slow you down.


John

 

[Wishes]

What you want is pretty easy. 50 kph on a hardtail would kick my ass, but I have a destroyed lower back. That type of bike is ideal for a first time rear hubmotor conversion.

If you are fine in the back, nearly any cheap bike can safely be ridden at 50kph/30mph. Brakes won't save you, at that speed you need to ride smart. But if is easier to ride smart and safe closer to 35kph.

Be sure your brakes work as good as possible, by getting new pads or at least making sure they line up well.

To hit 50kph, you will need 48v, and one of the faster 48v 1000w hubmotor kits found on ebay. Wesenwell has the dope on which vendors to buy from on those kits.

The battery discussion always goes on forever. What's best for you depends a lot on how much money you want to spend. If you can spend more than $400 on just the battery, the choices widen a lot.

Sorry dogman, i disagree... its like the guy who has a kick ass muscle car and says its a 13 second car in the quarter mile only to find that once he gets there its actually a high 14 sec car. " Well, it sure felt faster"....
Attaining 50 kmh is not easy on 48 volts and here is why:

Here is a chart of the RPM vs Voltage of a Cromotor. That is to say the HEMI of all hub motors. So lets say he puts on a Crystalyte hs3525. This is wound for more torque than speed so its specs are much less than the cromotor.

50V
16″ wheel = 20mph / 32kph @ 17A
20″ wheel = 25mph / 40kph @ 23A
22″ wheel = 27mph / 43kph @ 27A
24″ wheel = 29mph / 46kph @ 32A
26″ wheel = 30mph / 48kph @ 36A
29″ wheel = 33mph / 52kph @ 44A

As you can see in a 26 inch wheel with a FULL 50 volts and NO SAG the cromotor wont do 50 KPH...not to mention that almost every hub motor will do less than this speed (except the HS3540 which is what i use on my trike).

So now he has sag from a nominal 52 volt pack...lets say at full throttle he has 6 volts of sag ( if hes very lucky!) so now were down to 46 volts.....not a chance is he going to see 50 kph.

Just thought i would illustrate this, as ive built many different bikes and trikes and the speed you think your going to get usually isnt what it does....


John
Arctrike.com

Your wrong and dogman is right, any cheap 1000 watt kit will hit almost 50 kph with 25-30 amps at 48 volts. Well around 40-45 kph. It is not about how many amps but about how much KV your motor has. And if you are getting 6 volts of sag on a 48 volt pack, your batteries suck. Most 48 volt controllers will have a LVC around 40-42 volts. So with a 6 volt sag on a, lets say, 12s lipo pack, at 50 volts fully charge, will drop it to 44 volts?.?.? 6 volts sag on 30-35 amps or less?.?.? You need to look into better batteries.

Wishes

 

[teslanv]

9C 2805, 40A controller, 50.4V 10Ah LiPo = 50 km/h

 

[Wishes]

CNEbikes has nice 1000 watt rear hub kits that come out to less than $400 delivered to your door in Canada. Without the battery of course. I've bought a few of the golden motor kits and a few of the cnebikes kits and my personal preference is for the cnebike kits.

I didn't order my golden motor kits from the dealer in Canada, I ordered them directly from golden motor china. And the packaging was terrible. Out of 4 kits I ordered from them, 2 of them arrived warped from poor packaging. I probably would not have had this kind of trouble had I ordered from the Canadian resellers, but I would have paid much much more for the kits. The CNE kits were all very well packaged and I have never received anything from them damaged or defective for that matter. I also believe the accessories you get with the cne kits are a little better quality than what you get with Golden Motors. Throttle, sensored brake levers, controller ect...But again to be fair, the Canadian Golden Motor dealer dealer might be packaging their kits with different accessories.

Wishes

 

[johnnyz383]

Your wrong and dogman is right, any cheap 1000 watt kit will hit almost 50 kph with 25-30 amps at 48 volts. Well around 40-45 kph. It is not about how many amps but about how much KV your motor has. And if you are getting 6 volts of sag on a 48 volt pack, your batteries suck. Most 48 volt controllers will have a LVC around 40-42 volts. So with a 6 volt sag on a, lets say, 12s lipo pack, at 50 volts fully charge, will drop it to 44 volts?.?.? 6 volts sag on 30-35 amps or less?.?.? You need to look into better batteries.

Wishes

I am LMAO



" well almost"...40-45...well what is it?....cmon..be specific is it 40 or 45 or 50?..."Most 48 volt controllers will have a LVC around 40-42 volts. So with a 6 volt sag on a, lets say, 12s lipo pack, at 50 volts fully charge, will drop it to 44 volts?"....

Wrong again...lvc at 44 volts?....your putting your foot right in your mouth and dont even know it. Youve obviously never had a 48 volt pack and a BMS and ran it under the conditions mentioned. You think a 50 volt lifepo4 pac putting 40 amps through wont sag 5-6 volts?..and even if it didnt the previous chart will show you the wheel just wont turn fast enough...let me see lets do a simulation on ebike.ca.....next...

John

 

[johnnyz383]

Heres your precious ebike calculator on a 52 volt ping battery running your 9c hub motor



Im sorry i think it says 43 kph..thats a far cry from 50 kph...and thats with a 26 wheel...a 20 inch wheel is even slower....add 3-5 mph winds and now your lucky to get 40 KPH.....not to mention a slight hill." i like dreaming...."

Enough said

John

 

[johnnyz383]

Speaking of "Golden motor"...heres the simulation with one of their motors...



I think it says 40 kph....

 

[teslanv]

Johnnyz,

No. Actually HERE is my precious 9C motor.

 

[johnnyz383]

Lol ok touche. ...

John

 

[Golden Motor Canada]

I didn't order my golden motor kits from the dealer in Canada, I ordered them directly from golden motor china. And the packaging was terrible. Out of 4 kits I ordered from them, 2 of them arrived warped from poor packaging. I probably would not have had this kind of trouble had I ordered from the Canadian resellers, but I would have paid much much more for the kits.

Wishes

I didn't order my golden motor kits from the dealer in Canada, I ordered them directly from golden motor china. And the packaging was terrible. Out of 4 kits I ordered from them, 2 of them arrived warped from poor packaging. I probably would not have had this kind of trouble had I ordered from the Canadian resellers, but I would have paid much much more for the kits.

Just curious why the kits from China would be cheaper. I sell them for basically the same price as they do and only charge the shipping from me to you (Ontario to Quebec). As opposed to them charging you shipping from China to Canada. Try adding a pie kit to your cart on www.goldenmotor.com. The shipping is 135 USD. Do the same on www.goldenmotor.ca (add to cart-view cart-click get ship estimate-enter postal code) and the shipping should be about 100 dollars less. Of course you would still have to pay the 5 percent sales tax for Quebec but that is no where near 100 dollars.

Gary

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, When my ass "simulates" riding the typical Golden motor type kit, from YES.com, a 12s lipo battery will take it to 30 mph. that's 44 v.

That's real, I don't hallucinate it. Nor do the many others who have the kit.

It's the 2806 winding, and 20 amps will get you to speed, 30mph takes 1000w. More amps gets you to the speed faster though.

2807 winding will go 27-28 mph on 14s, 48v.

 

[Wishes]

I didn't order my golden motor kits from the dealer in Canada, I ordered them directly from golden motor china. And the packaging was terrible. Out of 4 kits I ordered from them, 2 of them arrived warped from poor packaging. I probably would not have had this kind of trouble had I ordered from the Canadian resellers, but I would have paid much much more for the kits.

Wishes

I didn't order my golden motor kits from the dealer in Canada, I ordered them directly from golden motor china. And the packaging was terrible. Out of 4 kits I ordered from them, 2 of them arrived warped from poor packaging. I probably would not have had this kind of trouble had I ordered from the Canadian resellers, but I would have paid much much more for the kits.

Just curious why the kits from China would be cheaper. I sell them for basically the same price as they do and only charge the shipping from me to you (Ontario to Quebec). As opposed to them charging you shipping from China to Canada. Try adding a pie kit to your cart on http://www.goldenmotor.com. The shipping is 135 USD. Do the same on http://www.goldenmotor.ca (add to cart-view cart-click get ship estimate-enter postal code) and the shipping should be about 100 dollars less. Of course you would still have to pay the 5 percent sales tax for Quebec but that is no where near 100 dollars.

Gary

Maybe for the magic pie, but certainly not for the 1000 watt kit. I also found out about you guys only after I had ordered directly from them. Rest assured, i've learned my lesson with shipping and any future orders of GoldenMotors I might require will be directly through you

Wishes

 

[Golden Motor Canada]

Ok then we must be talking about a while back in the past. Golden motor china only sells pies on there website for about 2 years now. They do have other motors but not any kits. I do have them build other kits for me though. I actually sell a lot more golden motor products then they do and more than any other gm dealer of course.

Enjoy the ride!

Gary