E-bike kit controller type?

[itchynackers]

I recently purchased the Front drive e-bike kit with sla's (love it). I've been trying to research what I can do controller wise (either modify, or get a better one) with my kit. I've been using the search function here, but still am not 100% sure which controller I have. I know it is 22A. Is it an infineon that comes standard with the kit? I'd like to know which thread to follow regarding "improvements" to the controller.

Also, which aftermarket controllers are compatible with my brushless direct drive? E-crazyman? Lyen 72V65A? Methods' 100V100A?

Thank you for the help,

Adam

 

[ambroseliao]

The e-bikekit.com standard controller is a 36V 22A Infineon. I was able to use it with my 48V setup with fresh off the charger voltages of up to 52V. It's a decent controller. I have since upgraded to 72V so now have a Lyen's Edition Infineon 72V 35A controller. It was a relatively easy swap since the connectors are fairly standard. The only difference was the e-brake connectors which were easy to swap out if you get the part from Lyen when you order the controller. Lyen's 72V 35A controller is identical in size to the stock e-bikekit controller as well.

Ambrose

 

[mwkeefer]

To determine what mods and upgrades and tweaks you can perform... I need to know the actual model (it's on the inside of the controller) of the PCB?

What does the cover on the back look like / say and what connectors do you have (pedalec, etc?) - also when did you pick this up.

-MIke

 

[itchynackers]

Ambrose,
Can you give me an idea of what kind of performance (speed) you are getting (along with battery type,size)?

Mwkeefer,
I will look tonight, but I do recall the bottom outside plate on the controller had a white sticker with some specs along with 22A on it. Also, I bought this kit around July 1st of this year, so hopefully I have the most recent version.

Thanks!!!

 

[Ykick]

I have 3 of the EBK 22A controllers and one reason to like 'em is that they tolerate a wide range of input voltage. I've ran as high as 63Vdc hot off the charger - drawing 24A measure peaking of 1400W.

You should upgrade batteries though before worrying about upgrading the controller IMO. You really won't know what the controller can do until you get away from those heavy, saggy SLA's.

In my recent experience with the 22A EBK controller - 12S lipo is a very nice combination requiring minimal battery size/weight.

 

[mwkeefer]

Ambrose,

I'm trying to isolate the actual controller mode (internally) because the various abilities like programming / flashing aren't possible on some...

That means all hardware mods - but there isnt much you can't do wiht the hw mods, just requires more planning and a tad more physical work.


-Mike

PS: You have my # feel free to call if you have ??

 

[yopappamon]

The e-bikekit.com standard controller is a 36V 22A Infineon. I was able to use it with my 48V setup with fresh off the charger voltages of up to 52V. It's a decent controller. I have since upgraded to 72V so now have a Lyen's Edition Infineon 72V 35A controller. It was a relatively easy swap since the connectors are fairly standard. The only difference was the e-brake connectors which were easy to swap out if you get the part from Lyen when you order the controller. Lyen's 72V 35A controller is identical in size to the stock e-bikekit controller as well.

Ambrose

Since their standard controller is an Infineon, does that mean it has cruise control functionallity inside that can be turned on by jumper? Or is that not present in this controller?

 

[itchynackers]

Ok here is the information on the back (bottom) plate of the controller:

---------------------------------------
Intelligent Brushless Controller for EBike

Model 48V(checked) 36V(checked) phase degree 120

Function: Automatic Cruise E-ABS

Energy Feedback, Mute

Adjustable Voltage 1.1 - 4.2V

Electric frequency: low frequency

Low Voltage Protection 31.5V

Limited Current 22A
-------------------------------------------------------------------

It is almost identical to the image at the bottom of this page (except I don't have the NC logo): http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8317&hilit=kit+infineon+controller&start=180

So is this the controller that has regen by soldering between BK & GND on the board?
If so, how will it work? For example, will it slow me down significantly more than coasting?
Does it only engage when hitting a brake?
Does it engage more when I hit the brake harder?
Do I want to enable this since I have few downhill glide areas? I do a lot of heavy braking when coming to stoplights/signs/inattentive drivers.

Thanks for the help!
Adam

 

[mwkeefer]

itchy,

One more thing you need a phillips and a flashlight...

Take the end cap without the wires off (4 screws) - then look on the very front most edge of the circuit board what model is it?

EB709, EB809 or EBXXX?

If you can't see the model, you will have to take the 6 heat sink screws out and the 4 end cap with the wires then slide the PCB out and look at top side (components) left front corner...

Once I have this... (leave your controller open) I can advise you properly.

-MIke

 

[itchynackers]

It says EB709XC. There were only 5 heat sink screws. Not sure if that means anything.

 

[yopappamon]

To answer your question and mine. I just tried it and it works. Assuming your controller is the same as mine.
Jumper BK to Gnd for regen.
Jumper CR to Gnd for cruise.

Hold the throttle for 8-10 seconds and it holds the last controller output (not necessarily speed).

The regen appears to be 2 stage. Like a light, not aggressive slowing until the speed is around 15mph, then a more aggressive slowing, more like a regular brake pressure. This happens when you activate one of the brake levers. If you brake while the throttle is still pressed, it goes right the more aggressive regen slowing.

 

[KTP]

I also just purchased an e-bike kit with the 22 amp controller and assume it is the EB709 model like the OP's

Yopappamon, it looks like your controller is an EB809?

Also (anyone), will the controller top out at 20mph no matter what input voltage you give it or is the 20mph figure just at 36V?

I am running a 9c 6x10 with a 700c wheel...don't really see how the controller can know if you are running a 20 inch, 26 inch or ~28 inch wheel and those would have very different speeds...

 

[itchynackers]

I believe the top speeds will be different for different wheel diameters. Mine ( I think a 9x7) tops out at 21.8mph on flat ground. Seems like yours is better suited for the hills/acceleration than mine is. If you put another battery in series (48V) you will get higher top speed. I've used a ebike program to predict, and I should get about 27.5mph, so you should probably get about 26mph.

Yopappa, thanks for the pics. That is exactly describes what I'd need to do. Does anyone know if the GND-2's are all common? It looks like a few of those are soldered together.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[Icewrench]

The 809 board can be re programmed with software and is the more common layout.
The 709 board will not respond to re programming so far. Mwkeefer is trying to sort it out but no joy yet.

 

[itchynackers]

Aside from programming, can I still jump the GND & BK for regen? How about the cruise? Anyone done this on a 709 board?

 

[mwkeefer]

There is no easy answer....

If the controller is from e-bikekit.com then Nope, you can't activate regen...

Internally these are already wired up so the Brake Line Interrupt plugs (the molex with Yellow and Black) are tied to BK and 5v GND... when you pull the brakes, they are already sending BK to ground.

In an EB809 the yellow line would have been tied to EBS- leaving BK free for regen jumpering, the lack of programability also adds to this because since I think Regen is disabled from the factory on these... we can't just flash enable it and rewire the brake cut outs.

I replied in PM more clearly.

-Mike

 

[yopappamon]

Mike,
Are you saying e-bike kit doesn't ship the EB809 with their kits normally?

 

[mwkeefer]

Yopappaman,

They used to...

Based on the posters initial phrasing, they seem to have made a recent purchase... more likely than not this would have included an EB709XC style controller not the older EB809 (even though they use the same Micro controller, they are very different)...

I believe the kits from the past few months (2-3) have been shipped with EB709XC controllers they received a while back, the 809 was phased out by the supplier with little if any notice to them... certainly no explaination of the lack of programability and other such features... the kit companies (ebikekit, etc) are targeting the "masses" who will never try this type of upgrade or fine tuning so it wasn't a major point of issue to them.

I've been advised they will be offering the either the EB206 or the EB209 models in the near (maybe a month?) future and those will be programmable and adaptable just as they are now, but those include the 116 CPU...

The EB709 and EB712 from ebike.ca are also not yet programmable (I don't even think the "routine" needed for changing settings is in the firmware on these chips) - heck they received a batch (a large batch) which needed all the chips removed and replaced (I hope that is public knowledge, I swear I remember reading that in a thread somewhere) because the darn vendor (China) wouldn't ship software to reprogram the existing chips!

I suppose my point is, if you want to be ANGRY or IRRITATED with anyone over these "non programmable" controllers.... be mad at the Chinese who just in essence "pulled a fast one" on everybody. Their logic (imho) is that if the dealer can't just reprogram, they must order MORE... In truth without the ability to program these controllers a dealer can't possibly calibrate them to a new motor... so when the next gen, revision, evolution of motor arrives... these may or may not be compatible and efficient - luck of the draw, again requiring more purchases from the chinese vendors.... but what they are going to find out is they have a bunch of controllers not a single vendor here in the US wants to purchase and will not order again

All that said and out of the way, you can still mod these... it's just all back to the hardware hacks of yester year that got us all started to begin with. As luck would have it, we have (methods, knuckles, lyen, arlo1, steveo, etc, etc) had alot of time with the 846 CPU and the EB8XX series boards and the PCB layout isn't much different in any way that matters... R12 mods still apply for altering the LVC (I think it still uses a 1.2K resistor too), shunt mods still apply (or resistor mods across the shunt return to the MCU)... we just lost the ability (only with the EB7XX series) to fine tune things using software...

I hope that answers the question well enough

-Mike

 

[yopappamon]

Thanks for the explanation, Mike.

I'm just glad to have cruise again, the regen is a bonus. I didn't think the controller had it, it's a bonus to me to find out it does, additional bonus to find out they don't normally ship the controller i received.

 

[mwkeefer]

I could be wrong and they may still indeed still ship the eb809xc model, I was under the impression everything forward was 709. You then ordered recently and got an 809xc?

-Mike

 

[yopappamon]

Yes, I ordered one of the special geared hubs, they were out so I got the standard 9c kit and it came with what you see in the pictures.

I got it around mid May.

 

[mwkeefer]

I checked the controller pics you posted... that is the older EB809XC-A-12 which is indeed programmable so compatible with 3spd switching, programmable limits for current, low voltage cutout, etc...

They have always been good for me with NO MODS up to 15S lipo... the caps are 63v and the FETs are 75v... I suppose 18S (75v) would work with a 100v cap upgrade alone but I've never attempted it - I always replace the FETs too (IRFB4110 usually if I can get em) to 100v and then adjust the R1A/B resistor for whichever voltage range your running in.

The newer models will be marked "EB709XC-DTO70921A" which so far I have decoded means:
D=Direct Drive Motor
T=Unknown Option Code
O=Unknown Option Code
7=Series
09=Number of Fets
21A=21 Amp Version

Again the newer ones aren't programmable... some will come with 3spd enabled, some with 3spd and pedalec available and some just traditional controllers without any bells and whistles..

That goes for all the EB7XX series controllers at this time!

-Mike

 

[yopappamon]

What is the 3spd switching? That's the first I've heard this term?

 

[KTP]

hmmm, I need to open up my e-bike kit controller now and see which version it is. I bought it at the beginning of July, so it probably is the new 709, but who knows.

I could *really* have used regen today. I did a 30 mile ride including a stretch along 520 in Redmond, WA and there is a long section that is a 12% grade (on the plus side, the 6x10 took this grade at 15mph on 44V LiMn with some vigorous pedaling...my wife on her tadpole, without a motor was doing 3.2mph and quite pissed at me ). On the return trip going down the 12% grade both of our disk brakes got so hot they were smoking!

 

[mwkeefer]

KTP,

I just traced out the EBS line on the 709 and it terminates where the old EBS- used to, for the heck of it I added lines out for CR (cruise control) and EBS (Electronic Braking System)... I'll give it a test tommorow (I have my son tonight) on a bike and see if in fact regen can be triggered in any way also will check push on demand cruise control to see..

So the 3 speed switch is a switch that on these units would let you select between 60, 80 and 100% (1,2,3) and on the old units it would have been pads X1 and X2, on this unit I think it's P21 and P22 but I honestly don't recall and I just buttoned up the unit... I will check again tommorow after my test of cruise and regen possibiliity... On the old units you could program the value of Speed %1, %2 and %3 (2 was the default) and sending X1 or X2 to ground would respectivly engage Speed %1 or Speed %3.

Note: I've replaced the stock R1 300ish ohm resistor for a pair of 220 ohm 2w in series for 440 ohms which should be perfect for a 15S pack - although I replaced the caps with 100v units... I want to test 15S operation on these controllers and log the data.

Regards,
Mike