e-bikekit.com geared hub motor review and builds

[mwkeefer]

Hello all,

There was apparently some nastyness or somthing in the original 200.00 e-bikekit geared hub thread and rather than allow it to continue on the choice was made to delete the thread (it may have been a better idea to delete 2 posts and lock the thread)... which left us all with no place to post our build experience or feedback with regards to these new geared kits from e-bikekit.com.

Please refrain from any negative postings, arguing about the origin or manufacturer of these motors... I actually know which company in china did the manufacturing, who the sales rep/broker in china was (intermediary) and also I know (by dissassembly and reverse engineering) who else in the industry has their motors made in the same factory although they may not even be aware of their own motors origins really... The point is, I am not going to post any of this information because it always leads to bickering and this thread is not for bickering but rather for showing off our conversions and voicing opinions, feedback and concerns over the geared hub kit most recently offered by e-bikekit.com!

Thank you for respecting this request, please feel free to post questions about install, issues you may have run into, pictures or videos and just about anything else with regards to your experience with these geared hubs (efficiency, weight, range, power, ease of installation, actual method of installation washers used, torque arm, what controller, what voltage / pack, etc)!

Regards,
Mike

 

[mwkeefer]

**reserved**

 

[mwkeefer]

Make: Dahon
Model: Jack (26" Folder No Suspension)
Year: 2010

Well I decided to see how well these Geared motors from e-bikekit work (and compare them with those from other vendors with "similar looking" hubs) and I just purchased (a few days ago) a perfect platform for the test the new 2010 Dahon Jack!

To begin, I expected these motors to SUCK! Really I did... I can't elaborate on why (see the opening post) due to my own rules but I was pleasantly surprised after dissassembling one and even more surprised once I powered it up for this first ride:

If you can't tell from the photos, I wasn't worried about a "Good Job" install... I literally tossed that together in 30 minutes, power source was a 12S1P pack if I recall correctly...

I was not flabergasted by the power of this motor, the watts up said I was pulling 22A maximum which explains the lack of umph however for assistance or lower speed cruising (15-17mph) it fits the bill perfectly..

The next thing was the aluminum housing that I use for LiPo while riding (to keep that stock look) - aluminum stands out on this bike (all black) like a sore thumb so I ran to the autobody shop and sprayed the aluminum housing with Metallic Black:

As you can see, the "Look" is coming along nicely... soon I will actually fit a 6FET (the same size as the stock controller which also received the Metallic Black treatment to blend better with the bike, I used hitemp exhaust paint for the controller) and run the "proper" loom... I have measured it all out and have most of the component parts collected and adjusted properly...

Now for a bit of performance info...

I've been running a 15S2P 10AH LiPo pack with a 9FET Infineon.... 15S Lipo is about the equivilent of a 48v LiFePo4 pack but weighs less and takes up less space. At this voltage (55.5v nominal) I see a maximum of 27/28 mph on an absolute flat piece of road with ZERO headwind... Most of the life of the pack (until about 9 of the 10AH are used) I can cruise at 24-25mph realistically... The current of 22A is now my limiting factor... on a downhill run I managed 32 and that was without pedaling and watching the load on the Watts Up... the motor was still speeding up when I ran out of hill... there was higher than idle load (about 12A) so it was still trying to spinout and likely had more ...

A higher current would get me past 30 for sure but before I mess with current changes I wanted to see what average Joe could accomplish just raising the voltage (somthing we can all do right?).

Now with this current 15S2P setup @ 22A - The economy/range of this motor is extreme... the 24/25mph top end works perfectly with the 14t for assisting with pedals even at 25mph (good to maintain speed up steep hills) and it's got enough power to make the absolute worst hills near me (I've gone some duzies) are easy to climb without standing in the saddle or shifting down... left to it's own power alone, my worst hill still can't stall it out (bike weight is about 34lbs and I am 158) but it creeps about 6mph without some assistance from me.

I am averaging (with more show pedaling than anything else, very little actual assistance) 2.5mi per AH so a 10AH pack is good for 25mi or I would assume 20 without any pedaling at all! That's just plain awesome (and when I up the current eventually, I will be adding a 3 speed selector switch to have one setting provide me just this 22A limit for economy mode assistance).

In addition I have hit more pot holes and launched more curbs (accidentally at first) than I would feel comfortable about even on my Specialized Hard Rock with Front Sus... I can't say I didn't feel it (the 10" of suspension in my legs only works when I see it coming) and in truth, every time I have dreaded that the rear would come loose or break the dropouts... every time it just keeps on keeping on... I have some marks to show where the hub is positioned (so I can observe if it shifts) and it hasn't move a bit since install... bolts stayed tight also!

The next test is 18S then 20S... afterwards I will be playing with current limits...

In summary... for the average joe, this is a fantastic kit... the axle diameter makes bolt in a piece of cake, plenty of room for gearing (9sp will fit) and it's much stronger than I had anticipated or than it looks.

More to come...

-Mike

 

[richmpdx]

Seems like a very nice build, very stealth with the rear hub motor and everything black. Also very nice that it is a folding bike. The performance seems pretty good given the controller and voltage. I have several questions:
1) What size free wheel/gear cluster are you using?
2) Any issues with clearance with the dahon dropouts?
3) Did you dish the rear wheel?
4) What is the source of the battery box you are using for the Lipo, after painting it looks great on the bike?

Thanks for posting this info.

Rich

 

[mwkeefer]

Seems like a very nice build, very stealth with the rear hub motor and everything black. Also very nice that it is a folding bike. The performance seems pretty good given the controller and voltage. I have several questions:
1) What size free wheel/gear cluster are you using?
2) Any issues with clearance with the dahon dropouts?
3) Did you dish the rear wheel?
4) What is the source of the battery box you are using for the Lipo, after painting it looks great on the bike?

Thanks for posting this info.

Rich

Rich,

Thank you for your kind words, I would say I am in alpha 2 build stage... constructing the battery pack to frame mount, moving to a modified 6FET infineon controller (mod for 100v) for smaller space and adding a front loader rack (modified from a blackburn single side support rack, hacksaw style) to allow a battery pack (15S2P - 9lbs) to be mounted afront and balance the front also another 10AH pack which will fit behind the rear seat downtube and the rear fender/tire.

Also remember that I currently run a stock 9FET infineon, not the little 6FET controller the kit came with... I also run 55.5v nominal, 62.5v max and lvc of 45v. The stock rears appear to have a loaded kV (total load = 220lbs +- 5lbs) of 6.02 based on measurements with a 36/37v packs (LiFePo4 and LiPo) , 44v (12SLiPo) 48v pack (LiFePo4 16S) and on the 15S which gives you a good starting point for a bike of similar weight.

I would like about 50% more torque but that's just for better assist up suicide hills (the ones you are scared to ride down for fear of runaway) but I get up them fine now too.

1.) My current freewheel is a 7sp shimano MegaRange which I think is 14-44 (may be 34) in either case... I have about 4mm of additional clearance on the drive side for up to 9sp cluster (8 and 9 are on the way) the 8 and 9 have 13 and the 9 even has an 11 which will be nice.

2.) Minor issues... the axles are just a touch too big even with the flats, the contour of the bottom of the dropout doesn't quite suffice... I'd say without mods you can acheive about a 1/4 - 1/2mm gap which worked fine for me at the stock current levels but... above those levels I would want not only to mod the axle or just reshape the bottom of the dropout to accept the 12mm diameter fully... In terms of spacing I did have to spread a tiny bit, I ended up with more spread than I wnated but still only about 1.5-2mm maximum. With properly sized spacers (I didn't have em) I would have not needed any spacing since they are 135mm dropouts... I'll post pics later close up of my spacing and centering of the rear wheel using spacers.

3.) Not yet. I found there was a bit of dish (enough for a 7sp) and I found also the spokes all needed about 1/4 to 1/2 turn for some added tension (the eyelets would click if stressed by hand) but the wheel was remarkably true...

I could have dished it instead of using spacers and spreading my dropout but... since I plan to up to 9sp, I thought it wise to wait for that freewheel before deciding on clearance, alignment and dishing ... I expect 1/2" more dishing would be perfect but first I need to double check the spoke tension is holding (I've learned to use an instrument tuner on my iPhone to pluck the spokes and measure their frequency to see if they need loosened or tightened to equalize tension on a given side... neat little trick saves alot of time if you didn't build the wheel to begin with.... especially for beginners).

4.) Thank you! Do me a favor, drop Jason@e-bikekit.com an email and let him know... Although I prefer a flat black, I wanted to showcase and draw attention to the pack which is actually a case from Jason at eBikekit salvaged from a battery which arrived damaged in shipping and with no good cells... he was kind enough to give me a good price on the shell.
In either case, it's partly to make the bike look more clean, stealth and factory equipped but also to communicate a point I've been trying to make to Jas for months, that he should get his LiFePo4 batteries in the aluminum but also in black.

Hope that answers your questions!

-Mike

PS: The same aluminum box tubing can be ordered in lengths from mcmaster, I just checked on it.

 

[richmpdx]

Thanks for all of the info and sorry for the delayed response. Looking forward to hearing additional info about further testing, higher voltage, etc.

Rich

 

[Russell]

I received my kit today. I must say I'm glad I'm re-lacing the motor to a new rim because the build quality of the wheel is not good at all. I understand these where built in China but still they could have done better. As you can see from the picture below the spoke heads are protruding above the flange instead of seating down in the hole. This will likely mean spoke failure in the future for those who run the wheel as is though since the spokes are actually 12G (2.60mm) they may last a while. The spokes selected were also too long with too many threads extending beyong the end of the nipple, not good if you need to tighten the spokes. Anyway that doesn't concern me since I will be lacing the motor into a 700C rim.



The motor itself at 133.3mm in diameter with a spoke flange hole circle diameter of 119.5mm is almost exactly the same size as a Bafang QSWXH (133.8mm and 120.5mm respectively). All measurements are my own btw. The motor with the hardware weighs in at 6 lbs 4 oz (2.8Kg) or right in between a Bafang QSWXH (shown at right below) at 5 lbs 12 oz (2.6Kg) and a Bafang QSWXB at 7 lbs 2 oz (3.2Kg).



I thought this motor was going to be a bit heftier than this so while it's rated 350W compared to the Bafang's 250W rating It'll probably heat up the same. I can't open it to see if the innards are heavier duty however since it looks like I need a custom spanner to twist the cover off. A Bafang is more user serviceable.



And the other side;



Oh and here's the rest of the stuff that was supplied which doesn't concern me much since I won't be using it, for the near-term anyway. All I really wanted was the motor and at $117 delivered for this "dented rim" kit it was cheaper than what I paid for the last GM Mini Motor (Bafang QSWXH) I ordered from China. 8)

-R

 

[mwkeefer]

Hey all!

Thought I should post an update here...

The rear finally went... phases fused internally but alas this was with the following configuration:

18S @ 3.8v per cell or
68.4 Volts
and
40A Primary Current
100A Phase Current (this was my issue, I knew this would be bad)

So power level was at 2736w - actual peaks were more in range of 44 A and I suppose fresh off the charger the pack would have been in the 75v range, assuming 4.1v instead (under load of 44A) explains the watt meter peaks of 3255 watts.

Again the breaking point was when I switched at 18S from 40A Primary Current and 80A Phase Current (2x) to 100A (2.5x).

Somthing of note - When I removed the wheel this evening, I found rust under the end caps (little rubber caps)... it would be a good idea to either spray the axles with WD40 or fill with silicone.. It may in fact have been water damage more than anything else causing this motor to fail. The issue is it was only in the rain once, by accident and showed no signs of breakage... the following day I rode 32 miles on it (with 15 and 18S packs, one each direction) and had no problem... Went to the store the next day (this is 2 days after rain now) and then it started acting up... I really thought it was just the LVC kicking in... got home changed the pack (which was low) and left for a haircut appointment... Thankfully it was my shortest ride (3 blocks) because it was doing some odd chugging thing... then finally nothing.

I thought I had blown a controller until I disconnected the phase wires and tried to spin the wheel against the freewheel... the drag was a dead give away of phase wire shorting...

Once I get the cover opened on this one (the fronts were easier to open, I had to make a special adapter for the rears using a 6 bolt iso thread on adapter, a 6 bolt disc brake rotor and still I can't get sufficient leverage until I take it to the shop tommorow or monday) with a bit of luck I can not only fix it, but beef up the phase lines a tad while I'm at it and also determine if it's wye or delta and if it's possible (prob not with beefing up the phase lines) to get delta/wye going on this motor... even if not possible, I will likely (hopefully) convert to delta and lose efficiency (a tad) but gain higher end speed on lower voltage packs.. would be nice and stable at around 35A/70A and 36v.

If I get this one opened this weekend, I will post pics.... I nearly broke two wrenches already and still can't get the leverage... I'm going to need to make a breaker bar of some sort or this puppy will never come off!

-Mike

 

[spence91]

Hello mwkeefer,

Did you not fit a throttle or anything like that? Just the battery and the motor itself?

 

[motomech]

Gee, what ever happened to this thread/review?
It just dies a fast death, like the topic motor, I guess.

 

[wineboyrider]

mwkeefer doesn't come on this forum much anymore AFAIK. I haven't heard from him since last summer?
I have one of these motors, but it's sitting in my garage only because I have other motors to play with right now. It's a nice efficient motor (gets great ah/mile) I was averaging at least 2.5 miles per ah @ 12s lipo and 36v lifepo4. 8) 8)

 

[johnrobholmes]

I've been running them on 12s lipo and 12s life with great success. They are certainly a good motor for commuting. Dying a fast death at 40a battery/ 100a phase is no surprise. That is just asking to kill such a small motor, as MW found out. Keep it under 25a/ 55a and they stay happy. I prefer to run mine at 18a/ 45a for great mileage with plenty of pep for pedal assist. This goes for all similar sized motors, not just the ebikekit ones.

 

[motomech]

JRH, an honor Sir.

Couple of quick questions;

mwkeefer wrote;
"... the axle diameter makes bolt in a piece of cake, plenty of room for gearing (9sp will fit) and it's much stronger than I had anticipated or than it looks."

I think he must have been mistaken, there doesn't appear to be any sm. geared motor which allow 8-sp/9-sp fitment into 135 m/m drop-outs w/out surgery.
garykard did it w/ the diminutive Q-85, but the rear version of the motor seems to be no longer available. Am I correct in my assumptions?

I am currently using this motor w/ a brand name 48V rack battery, but would like to move to Lipo in the triangle, 4 of the new Zippy 6s, 8000mAh bricks(44.4V 16Ah).
Would your sm. 25 amp controller be suitable for this set-up? I am willing to trade a little range for a little more omph.

Thanks

 

[johnrobholmes]

I haven't tried fitting more than a 7 speed cassette, and I don't think it would fit anything more without spacing the frame out. I haven't tried though, so it is my opinion.

At 12s lipo you will have a longer motor life at 18 or 20a. Pushing to 25a at 44v is right on the line of what this size of motor can take reliably, and if you will be over 300lbs total weight or pulling lots of big hills you could burn it up on a hot day.

What I would like to do on my bike is hook up the cycle analyst so that I can turn down the amps during hot days or on bigger climbs. Best of both worlds.


I can tell you that they won't run well with a xie chang controller on 44v sensorless. They don't keep sync well under fast load changes.

 

[EVsRoll]

Does anybody know how to take one of these geared mini motors apart? I got the gears off OK, but the rest looks sealed and the axle appears to have been pressed in or something.

Any clues on tear down? Mine is making a real racket....

Thx and happy eBiking

 

[motomech]

It's all in here:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44776&hilit=amped&start=15