E-S Phasor Electric Bike Owners

[dpearce]

Nice built. What will happen with the balance port once you get to drive this bike in the dirt? Won't it be covered with nice and slimy mud?

That area usually stays pretty clean, I did search around for some sort of dust boot / cover for that, I know they have to be out there. For the dirt, there is the green bike anyway.

1)how is the 1/3 oil working out?...able to run more amps and/or climb better?

2)that chain tensioner AWESOME!...I am getting a High speed shclumph do you think the chain tensioner will work with a 30t shclumph?

I don't see why not, it mounts to the ISCG mount so as long as that is not blocked off.

1) So far I have limited it down to 35 Amps at 74V, I will push it up to 50A as I feel more comfortable and get a sense for how it heats up. Only ridden it a couple times since I put the thermistor and 10AWG wires in the motor. The oil is a mess. I think more thought needs to be put into containing it. Its hard to know how much to use, I estimate there is a little less than a third full in there. I don't recommend the oil modification unless you have a good solution to contain it. It is messy and I think defeats part of the purpose of these bikes when you have to deal with oil. I did rush to put the cover on, it didn't seal right from the previous RTV sealant still being on there, and it caused a leak, it was a pain. If the motors were designed for it, I think there is potential for it to help make more power with less weight. I ended up redoing the cover seal and plugging the vent hole with the oil still in there, so far it has stayed in there.

After a little 2 mile jaunt, hit over 40 on the flats, I think it will do 45+. This is just intermittent though, stop / go city riding, going fast for a few seconds at a time only. How long it will last before it joins the rest in the BMC graveyard is to be determined.

Something I have been thinking about for a while, casting my own case with cooling fins. Here is a half assed thermal simulation of a BMC case with cooling fins. I don't think my model accurately reflects the actual thermal gradient that would actually occur, but you get the idea.

My assumptions were: Conductive heat transfer from the windings, to the oil, to the case, and convective dissipation through the fins.

74V * 50A = 3700W

3700W * .8 = ~2960W power to the ground, assuming 80% motor efficiency (don't know what it actually is)

3700W - 2960W = 740W, or about 1 horsepower lost as heat

Motor with cooling fins

Designed for 7 speed, tight fit:

Dpearce, thats a nice collection of smoked stators you got there Well, at least 2 of them. How is the oil cooling working so far? Seems like I recall reading that the new V4 series (S) (C) (T) geared hubs could handle about 1500-1900 watts continues. With oil cooling are you successfuly running north of these numbers?

So far yes. From what I have heard, the V4T 1000W continuous, V4C 1500W continuous, V4S 2000W continuous. So intermittent peaks north of 3000W should be ok, so long as the temp stays down (limited by the Cycle Analyst).

 

[Rix]

Rod, here is some tire info and my latest wheel build information. So I got my 17x1.4 prowheel rim laced up and trued to the 5404. I used the homey the clown ghetto chump method for truing my latest rim. Tires, I have photographed 4 tires together for size reference in pic 1. From left to right: Bridgestone M23 2.5x19 24.7"), Duro Razorback 24x3.00 (25.6), Michelin Gazzette M62 3x17 (23.3", and the Shinko SR241 3x17 (23.9"). Parenthesis is outer diameter in inches. Next pic is a top view of the tires. As you can see, I trued the rim on my swing arm using to pens. This was the easiest rim I ever trued and it trued up quick. Then the final pic is of my bike back together with the 24x3 Duro on the front and the M62 Gazzette on the rear. Probably going to switch to the SR241. I cant get the Gazzette to inflate evenly up on the bead. Speeds over 38MPH and it feels like I am on a washboard road. Running the rear @ 20PSI helps though. I like the 17" rim better than the 19. I like them both better than the stock 24MTB setup. Much tougher and not much heavier. With the smaller rim and tire, the bomber handles much better. I don't know what the head angle with the smaller rear wheel set up, but I like it. Also, the increased thrust torque because of the increased mechanical advantage makes it easier to wheelie. I can feel the difference in acceleration from dead stop. I am experimenting with some very conservative venting. With the peak watts im running 5.6KW, the motor does get hot but not to bad. What concerned me the most was after I finished a ride, heat quench would get the hub extremally warm. With the venting, the heat can escape and the hub doesn't get nearly as warm. Anyway, I think you will really like the 17 on the rear of your phasor.

Rick

 

[pendragon8000]

Can you tell us more about how you did this heat sink mod?

 

[korpin]

After a little 2 mile jaunt, hit over 40 on the flats, I think it will do 45+. This is just intermittent though, stop / go city riding, going fast for a few seconds at a time only. How long it will last before it joins the rest in the BMC graveyard is to be determined.

well I can do about 43 (according to my crystalyte controller) using about 30 amps with my 4065 motor...hoping for about 50 mph with the high speed shlumph still using only 30 amps at 90 volts!

 

[korpin]

Rod, here is some tire info and my latest wheel build information. So I got my 17x1.4 prowheel rim laced up and trued to the 5404. I used the homey the clown ghetto chump method for truing my latest rim. Tires, I have photographed 4 tires together for size reference in pic 1. From left to right: Bridgestone M23 2.5x19 24.7"), Duro Razorback 24x3.00 (25.6), Michelin Gazzette M62 3x17 (23.3", and the Shinko SR241 3x17 (23.9"). Parenthesis is outer diameter in inches. Next pic is a top view of the tires. As you can see, I trued the rim on my swing arm using to pens. This was the easiest rim I ever trued and it trued up quick. Then the final pic is of my bike back together with the 24x3 Duro on the front and the M62 Gazzette on the rear. Probably going to switch to the SR241. I cant get the Gazzette to inflate evenly up on the bead. Speeds over 38MPH and it feels like I am on a washboard road. Running the rear @ 20PSI helps though. I like the 17" rim better than the 19. I like them both better than the stock 24MTB setup. Much tougher and not much heavier. With the smaller rim and tire, the bomber handles much better. I don't know what the head angle with the smaller rear wheel set up, but I like it. Also, the increased thrust torque because of the increased mechanical advantage makes it easier to wheelie. I can feel the difference in acceleration from dead stop. I am experimenting with some very conservative venting. With the peak watts im running 5.6KW, the motor does get hot but not to bad. What concerned me the most was after I finished a ride, heat quench would get the hub extremally warm. With the venting, the heat can escape and the hub doesn't get nearly as warm. Anyway, I think you will really like the 17 on the rear of your phasor.

Rick

just curious as to guage of spokes on rear?

 

[dpearce]

Thats mph. This motor pops the wheel up from a stop (with a little lean or pedal assist) better than the bike with the torque motor, but I could feel that the motor doesn't like that, and doing that repeatedly is a good way to toast them as I have found before. As long as the temperature stays within range I will keep doing it. I have yet to see the temp go above around 55* c, but still just using full power intermittently. Needless to say it is a lot of fun.

This bike is very well balanced, it weighs in at 81lbs, and can still be bunny-hopped up curbs and pedaled at around ~13 mph effortlessly. With the features of the Cycle Analyst V3 any setup can be made robust and reliable (electronics wise), by protecting the motor and battery from the top level.

Can you tell us more about how you did this heat sink mod?

My custom cast BMC housing? Top secret...

Not really. It is just some stick on cooling fins I found. I should have done some before and after testing since I have the motor temp sensor hooked up, but I was impatient and just stuck them on. I know they will be effective if the oil is transferring the heat to the case. Every little bit counts sometimes. I had an old Pontiac that ran on the ragged edge, some of those gimmicky 'water wetter' type additives made the difference between over heating in traffic or idling indefinitely without worry.

They are called ARC cooling fins,thin aluminum fins that stick on with a thermally conductive adhesive. I think they have been discontinued but you can still find them here and there, I couldn't find anything else like it, only 'stick on' cooling fins I came across. I wanted to test the feasibility of a case with cooling fins before going any further with casting a new housing or something like that. If nothing else, at least they make it look faster.

 

[pendragon8000]

If nothing else, at least they make it look faster.

thanks for the info. if you go through a creek or something it could offer some paddle steamer type propulsion

 

[Rodney64]

Rod, here is some tire info and my latest wheel build information. So I got my 17x1.4 prowheel rim laced up and trued to the 5404. I used the homey the clown ghetto chump method for truing my latest rim. Tires, I have photographed 4 tires together for size reference in pic 1. From left to right: Bridgestone M23 2.5x19 24.7"), Duro Razorback 24x3.00 (25.6), Michelin Gazzette M62 3x17 (23.3", and the Shinko SR241 3x17 (23.9"). Parenthesis is outer diameter in inches. Next pic is a top view of the tires. As you can see, I trued the rim on my swing arm using to pens. This was the easiest rim I ever trued and it trued up quick. Then the final pic is of my bike back together with the 24x3 Duro on the front and the M62 Gazzette on the rear. Probably going to switch to the SR241. I cant get the Gazzette to inflate evenly up on the bead. Speeds over 38MPH and it feels like I am on a washboard road. Running the rear @ 20PSI helps though. I like the 17" rim better than the 19. I like them both better than the stock 24MTB setup. Much tougher and not much heavier. With the smaller rim and tire, the bomber handles much better. I don't know what the head angle with the smaller rear wheel set up, but I like it. Also, the increased thrust torque because of the increased mechanical advantage makes it easier to wheelie. I can feel the difference in acceleration from dead stop. I am experimenting with some very conservative venting. With the peak watts im running 5.6KW, the motor does get hot but not to bad. What concerned me the most was after I finished a ride, heat quench would get the hub extremally warm. With the venting, the heat can escape and the hub doesn't get nearly as warm. Anyway, I think you will really like the 17 on the rear of your phasor.

Rick

Yes I'm looking forward to getting the 17 inch going.

Just need to get my spokes now.

 

[Rix]

David,

Your Phasor looks great. I was wondering if you used House of Kolor (spelled with K) or some other type paint where your Phasor looks blue, but in direct sunlight, it turns purple? Also, casting a motor shell with vents could be the way to go. Not sure, but have toyed with venting a geared hub? Has anyone else done it. Lots of data availble for direct drive hub venting, but I cant find one article about a vented geared hub. I like the appeal of geared hub for their weight and mechanical advantage. I wish some one would make a larger geared hub with steel gears and a stator that could handle 3kw continues. That would be equal to a direct drive running twice that in terms working thrust pounds of propulsion. You mentioned that you had smoked some stators a while back, have you had an problems with the composite gears chipping teeth?

 

[korpin]

came today,but they got the order wrong!..was supposed to be 170 cranks with easy shift levers,tool kit,and milling tool none of which came even though they were paid for (over 1,000)..will let you guys know how honest they are about making this right (haberstock molbility that is)..would also like to add that even though they screwed up my order,they DID send me a package of Haribo gold bear jelly candies...but would rather have the proper gear!

 

[dpearce]

Your Phasor looks great. I was wondering if you used House of Kolor (spelled with K) or some other type paint where your Phasor looks blue, but in direct sunlight, it turns purple? Also, casting a motor shell with vents could be the way to go. Not sure, but have toyed with venting a geared hub? Has anyone else done it. Lots of data availble for direct drive hub venting, but I cant find one article about a vented geared hub. I like the appeal of geared hub for their weight and mechanical advantage. I wish some one would make a larger geared hub with steel gears and a stator that could handle 3kw continues. That would be equal to a direct drive running twice that in terms working thrust pounds of propulsion. You mentioned that you had smoked some stators a while back, have you had an problems with the composite gears chipping teeth?

I think I have broken everything that can break but the gears. I am reluctant to do the vent holes because I go in the dirt all the time and dirt + gears would not be good, it would definitely need some sort of filter. Everything can be beefed up, but the one way bearing will become the weak link. You can weld this together and lose the freewheeling, if you wanted to do regenerative capabilities.

The color on my frame is candy purple powdercoat with a chrome base instead of the traditional silver sparkle. All of the candy colors are pretty dynamic. I also have some chameleon colors in the works, anything can be done for the right price, glow in the dark frame anyone?

This paint below changes color based on temperature, it would be cool to do a frame and motor in this color, but it is very very expensive paint.

 

[dimpirate]

rodney get em spoked up! nice buid david like the wheels, charge balance on of setup looks great!

so good thing is things are coming together, have almost all components some in mail,
heres some pics of progress

oh baad news im leaving for 2 months of work end of month back for 12 days then another 2 months.... timing sucks... maybe be ill get to ride this fully built in the fall....




more pics in a bit

i hate loading pics on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[dimpirate]

Ill have to add some support for those 2 top packs by controller....
View attachment 1

Very tight, these packs will not be moving at all no vibration 0. Next time they go in frame is the last till I replace them should . Should have gotten thinner rubber protection .made aluminum covers bulge a bit. Can't wait, wheels coming LVC HVC boards and ice cube harness. Doubt ill have chainring installed before I'm of, but I still want to get this running before departure even if I'm riding on pegs, sticking out of BB 8)

 

[Rix]

Dimpirate, those 19x1.4 prowheel rims look great with the 244. Tell my about your front rim set up. Spoke length, hub used, nipple size. That sort of thing, I want to run the same set up on the front of my bomber and can find spokes that will work with the 19x1.4 rim and a MTB 20mm thruogh axel hub. Idealy, running the 17x1.4 rear I have now and the 19 up front like you have is exactly what I want to do.

Rick

 

[dimpirate]

Dimpirate, those 19x1.4 prowheel rims look great with the 244. Tell my about your front rim set up. Spoke length, hub used, nipple size. That sort of thing, I want to run the same set up on the front of my bomber and can find spokes that will work with the 19x1.4 rim and a MTB 20mm thruogh axel hub. Idealy, running the 17x1.4 rear I have now and the 19 up front like you have is exactly what I want to do.

Rick

13g spokes, DMR revolver hub, not sure of rest of details. Remind me once I get wheels. Might be able to give you better details.

 

[Rix]

There are only two ways that the DMR could fit that rim. Special made nipples for smaller 2.5mm spokes, or washers around the nipples with the 13g spokes. Eitherway, I got to know. If that is a specialized nipple set up, I need to know who you got them from, I will order 36 and have a local spoke cutter cut some spokes and do the same. Your wheels look fantastic. If your wheels are an indication of whats to come, your Phasor will be really sweet.

Rick

 

[Kepler]

I don't recommend the oil modification unless you have a good solution to contain it. It is messy and I think defeats part of the purpose of these bikes when you have to deal with oil. I did rush to put the cover on, it didn't seal right from the previous RTV sealant still being on there, and it caused a leak, it was a pain. If the motors were designed for it, I think there is potential for it to help make more power with less weight. I ended up redoing the cover seal and plugging the vent hole with the oil still in there, so far it has stayed in there.

I went down the oil path with my Bafang powered Fighter. What a nightmare. Tried to seal it the best I could but couldn't stop the oil leaks. What a mess. Worst part was oil getting on the brakes. Waisted weeks trying to get it to work. Ended up giving up and going back to grease filled.

I think the external fins and thermal rollback with the CA3 is the way to go on this type of setup. 3000W should be be an acceptable power setting and with a geared hub should be a nice a balance of power. I am fitting the temp sensor to mine this weekend. Looking forward to winding the power up a bit.

What about air cooling holes with an insect wire over it to stop grease coming out?

 

[Rodney64]

Dimpirate, those 19x1.4 prowheel rims look great with the 244. Tell my about your front rim set up. Spoke length, hub used, nipple size. That sort of thing, I want to run the same set up on the front of my bomber and can find spokes that will work with the 19x1.4 rim and a MTB 20mm thruogh axel hub. Idealy, running the 17x1.4 rear I have now and the 19 up front like you have is exactly what I want to do.

Rick

13g spokes, DMR revolver hub, not sure of rest of details. Remind me once I get wheels. Might be able to give you better details.

Dimpirate your wheels look good, who laced them for you. I'm going to go 105mm spoke length for my cromotor and 17 inch rim. Like Rick said the front wheels the difficult part if you want to go 9 guage spokes. I'm thinking of drilling out a 20mm hub to fit the spokes.

Anyway a new addition to the family.

 

[dpearce]

I went down the oil path with my Bafang powered Fighter. What a nightmare. Tried to seal it the best I could but couldn't stop the oil leaks. What a mess. Worst part was oil getting on the brakes. Waisted weeks trying to get it to work. Ended up giving up and going back to grease filled.

I read through that thread, and it was in the back of my head while I was kicking myself thinking I should have heeded your warnings. But I had to learn the hard way for myself. I still think if the oil can be contained, then a finned case can have a significant impact on heat dissipation, but further development is necessary. The cooling fins would not be very effective without it, unless you enhanced the convection heat transfer on the inside as well, IE; add some sort of fins on the inside of the hub. My vent hole (was, before I plugged it) on the freewheel side, so the oil has not touched my brakes, ( kept my chain lubed though ) but spraying on the rim / tire is no good, and opening / closing / sealing the motor is an ordeal with the oil.

I see no reason that it could not be contained with the right axle seals, and no ventilation hole. For the oil to effectively transfer heat from the case to the windings, I think this rules out a vent hole and necessitates tighter seals because the oil level has to be full enough to be in contact with the case and the the whole of windings under full load, steady state (spinning) conditions. With only say 1/3 full, spinning at speed will turn the oil into a layer on the outside of the inside of the hub, maybe contacting only a fraction of the windings, so I would think it needs more like 1/2 full - 2/3 full. Maybe I will dip one of my toasted stators in water to see how much volume it displaces, then a desired oil level can easily be calculated from the volume of the case minus the displacement of the internals, assuming the oil forms an annulus shape at speed as shown below: A picture is worth a thousand words, that I don't want to type.

Ideally you would want your thermistor immersed in that oil layer as well.

I also came across this image of my simulation of the heat transfer before adding cooling fins, which indicates a good location for them. Again this is assuming convective heat transfer dissipating from the outside of the case, and conductive heat transfer from the windings to the oil to the case. If there were no oil, this would look quite different, with the hottest spots near the axle where the dominant conductive heat transfer would be happening. In fact I think that is what the first image I posted above represents.

di

mpirate, those wheels are awesome! Even more so that you will have some power to put them to use! Can't wait to see it come together.

 

[Insider]

Hm...

Is this normal?

Seems like the swingarm fastening is wider than the frame slot

I cant mount the swingarm

 

[Rodney64]

Insider what you need to do is put the swing arm into the frame then pull it out you'll see what I mean when you try it. As you're pulling the swing arm out put some downward pressure on it.

Edit: let us know how you go. If you have trouble installing the pin I can also offer a tip or two as well. Below the page number to where I installed the swing arm.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41682&start=75#p633161

 

[Insider]

Rodney, thanks, I''ll try!

 

[Rix]

I also came across this image of my simulation of the heat transfer before adding cooling fins, which indicates a good location for them. Again this is assuming convective heat transfer dissipating from the outside of the case, and conductive heat transfer from the windings to the oil to the case. If there were no oil, this would look quite different, with the hottest spots near the axle where the dominant conductive heat transfer would be happening. In fact I think that is what the first image I posted above represents.

Dave,
Based on that thermo snapshot, you are correct about placing heatsink fins where you did, I could see how that could have a huge effect on heat quinch in the hub. I think Oil Cooling for geared is got to be the answer. Not just because the oil will transfer heat away from the stator to the shell but als because the gears will have an oil bath cushion in them, this will improve life immensly.

Rodney, nice addition to your collection. I really like the cromotors. May have to get one. Is methods still making the 150 amp controller for them, or did he/they finally go to the sinsodial (sp?) controller as the permenant replacement?

Rick

 

[korpin]

rodney get em spoked up! nice buid david like the wheels, charge balance on of setup looks great!

so good thing is things are coming together, have almost all components some in mail,
heres some pics of progress

WOW LOVE those wheels! will go back on forum and get brand of rims tires but wondering how much do they weigh?...look heavy

on an off topic,does anybody know why sometimes photos post but other times they show as link?

 

[dimpirate]

Not sure about exact weight yet but yes! Very heavy. Ill post exact weight once it arrives.
Jrh/volt riders dia wheel build.