E-Scooter meets the Fermi Paradox

[kenobi66]

Hi everyone, this is kenobi66 with the 2009 upgraded Zapino,

Sitting out here in the PNW among the crickets, wondering if anyone knows this.
I've been trying to reach Edward Lyen for a replacement 12FET speed controller for the past couple of months with no luck. So I reached out to Paul Lysaker to ask him if he'd heard what's going on, so far also with no response. I've always been on good terms with the both of them so I don't know what's going on there. But it leaves me with the question: where is everybody?
Has Edward closed his shop by any chance? Paul still around? Zombie apocalypse? Or is some other macroeconomic thing happening with the community that I'm unaware of?
Failing that, does anyone have any strong recommendations for a speed controller compatible with a 3000watt hub running 72v and a 40amp supply?
Please let me know. The crickets are deafening.

Many thanks!
-kenobi66

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Failing that, does anyone have any strong recommendations for a speed controller compatible with a 3000watt hub running 72v and a 40amp supply?

Are you limited to 40A because of the battery?
If yes, do you plan on upgrading it somewhere in the future?

If yes, then I suggest getting a good programmable controller, such as the fardrivers or the sabvoton. You can tune them down while using this 40A battery, then increase the power later whenever you'll get a better one.

I don't know this particular scooter very well, so I can't say for sure what is the maximum power its electric motor can take, but I know that the QS motors that are rated at 3000W can take more than 20KW reliably. So what I'm trying to say here is that you should have no difficulty vastly increasing the power if you get a good enough battery.

 

[neptronix]

MAC Motor tech still sells these controllers from 6 FET to 18 FET. They include sinewave now. You have to email the company and wire a Chinese bank account to get one though. I've bought things from them before and things came out well.

I can't find any other vendors for these infineon clone style controllers. I don't know why Lyen keeps paying for website hosting since we haven't heard from him in a decade.

 

[kenobi66]

Thank you Dui! Thank you neptronix! The replies are very greatly appreciated!

(Wow, no kidding? A decade? My correspondence with Edward wasn't that long ago. I hope all my idiot noob questions didn't push him over the edge. He was really helpful.)
Let me answer both your recommendations in sequence:
Dui: my battery configuration is two 20a batteries set in parallel, totaling 40a. While I'm not married to 40a, space restrictions in one of the two battery-install locations restricted me to choosing a prepackaged Li-Ion 20a design from AliExpress which was the biggest 'stock' option for the smaller spot of the two. I wisely put one of the batteries under the deck which pushed valuable ballast weight forward, centering it a bit more & improving the handling quite a bit. (did make it look a bit 'preggers' but turned out to be a great idea) Since I had only two spots to fill batteries into & didn't want to mess with having two different amperages. That would be a bad electrical idea. While I do have space for a third 20a battery stacked on top of the aft battery pack, (under the seat) I would be adding more weight aft to an already butt-heavy scooter design. (Vespa-ish)
So unless I got a battery-config pro to look at my scooter on-site & offer some other alternative ideas, (un-effing-likely here in Portland) or some battery technology magically appeared that cranks up the available amperage, I think the 40a 72v system is all I can do for the moment. Yes: it would be great to future-proof the scooter by getting a speed control with more high end. And yeah, that QS 300watt should be able to handle some extra, too. But the battery size & placement seems to be my limiting factor.
neptronix: Okay, I'll check out MAC (and also the fardriver and sabvoton) speed controllers. Thanks for the recommendations, both of you guys.
It's important that whatever I get is compatible with the 3-speed switch, regen braking circuitry & has a customizable power profile UI like what I was used to. (see image)
Suppose this might be a good opportunity to try an alternate speed controller to try to address the 'lack-of-oomph' issue with my scooter, too. The hub motor design is inherently lousy at the extreme low & high ends, and the Zaps were pretty heavy. Still, Edward seemed to think it ought to have been capable of more than stinkin' 58kph. (36mph) Another spd-ctrl guru's attention to the topic just might solve it.

Thank you both!

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Dui: my battery configuration is two 20a batteries set in parallel, totaling 40a.

I think your might be confusing battery capacity and battery rated current.
In which case, you have two 20Ah batteries for a total of 40Ah capacity, not 20A or 40A. I know it's confusing, both units sound very similar but it's not the same thing.
Usually most average batteries have a peak discharge rate of 3 times their rated capacity, so that means theoretically your both batteries combined should be good for delivering 40Ah x 3C = 120A.
So in theory you should be able to drop a controller rated for 120A maximum.
That is, if your goal is to increase your vehicle's acceleration.

Both of the controller brands I mentioned earlier have the functionalities you listed as being important to you (3 speed mode, regen braking, programming interface and lots of other stuff).
I suggest you take a look at my scooter build (in my signature) as it is a similar scooter. Even though the appearance and plastic shells are different most of the powertrain and frame are similar, maybe it will give you some inspiration.

 

[kenobi66]

I will! Thanksthanks!

 

[kenobi66]

Hi Dui ni shuo de dui,

Okay, I'm looking at the Sabvoton controllers on eBay and Aliexpress, and there are several for me to choose from. Given my 40Ah 72v battery supply with my 3000watt brushless QS motor, ....and expecting to add a third 20Ah battery to total 60Ah, (for future-proofing, as per your advice) do you have any strong recommendation as to which speed controller I should consider? It would need to be able to step down to my 40Ah system for now, but be able to ramp up to 60Ah later.
Everything else about the scooter is more than capable of the upgrade. When I rewired it I used 8awg cable (!) and ceramic connector bays to make damn sure the power train would be bulletproof.
I'm not thrilled about adding the proposed third battery under the seat but it's my only space option.

Thanksthanks!

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Any controller should be fine as long as it matches the battery voltage. They are programmable so I suggest you buy the most powerful you can afford and then tune it down so it won't trigger your battery BMS.
Then later on when you upgrade the battery you will just have to increase the current in the controller programming interface.

 

[kenobi66]

Supastaaah! Thanks!

 

[kenobi66]

Hi everyone, hi Dui ni shuo de dui,

After a long hiatus, I've finally installed the Sabvoton SVMC(M) into my Zapino. Gorgeous looking! It is the non-display version with options for either bluetooth or PC connections. Since I'd prefer to run the system on my Samsung Note 10+, I first tried linking them via the bluetooth antenna provided and leave my PC alone. (especially since the phone is what I can carry with me) The bluetooth antenna's connected to the USB conn but the phone app does not seem able to pick up the signal in the bluetooth signal listing for some reason. I've tried the usual suspects; turn off & on the phone, off & on bluetooth, uninstall/reinstall the app.
Wiring-wise everything's hooked up properly electrically/electronically, TheSVMC(M) is receiving healthy voltage (confirmed with voltmeter) (yes: I powered the scooter on) and I've got a QS Motor so the Hall wiring config should match. I'm embarrassed, the YouTube channels all show a very smooth install process but I've hit a wall right out of the gate. Seems like this ought to be fairly plug-&-play.
SO I tried using the PC app instead, but I can't seem to assign a COM port. ("config failed!" with every attempt from 1 to 20) I assume I missed a critical step here. Do I have to assign a COM port via the PC's Device Manager UI? "Plase halp."

​

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Normally you go to "devices and printers" in the setting panels of windows, then you should be able to see which port com has been assigned.
Are you sure you plugged the cable the right way? I never had an issue with this step, it always worked first try for me.

Never used the bluetooth on this controller so I can't help with that.

 

[kenobi66]

Hi Dui! Thanks for the reply,

(Hah! Bingo, stupid rookie mistake. My dongle was backwards. Thank you.)
That's fixed and I linked up my PC to the controller. I also stumbled on that thread from Kathy ("For Sabvoton sine wave motor controller users") about setting up, which was incredibly helpful.
All the settings have been input. Now I'm getting a few errors in the Error List section which I'm unable to resolve, and I'm inferring these errors are preventing my ability to upload the profile into my controller as an idiot-proofing measure? (the "DEBUG/Parameter Store" button is red)
Presumably, once I resolve these errors the software will allow me to upload the profile, but where? With the "Parameter Store" button? Nothing else is jumping out at me. My only previous experience with controllers was with the Edward Lyen models which had a push-button switch on the cable to upload the profile.
Anyway, the errors I'm getting relate to: (the only ones in red)

- 2. overVolt
- 3. lackVolt
- 4. resved

- 17. reseved
- 18. overSpeed
- 19. reseved
- 20. blockprotect fault

- 37. resvd

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
(controller: Sabvoton SVMC72150(M) Motor: QSMotor 72v 3000w, 10" hub, brushless)

 

[kenobi66]

(you don't suppose this has anything to do with my PC running WIN10, do you? I read other people having issues with WIN10, and my parameter settings don't seem to be saving.)

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Hi Dui! Thanks for the reply,

(Hah! Bingo, stupid rookie mistake. My dongle was backwards. Thank you.)
That's fixed and I linked up my PC to the controller. I also stumbled on that thread from Kathy ("For Sabvoton sine wave motor controller users") about setting up, which was incredibly helpful.
All the settings have been input. Now I'm getting a few errors in the Error List section which I'm unable to resolve, and I'm inferring these errors are preventing my ability to upload the profile into my controller as an idiot-proofing measure? (the "DEBUG/Parameter Store" button is red)
Presumably, once I resolve these errors the software will allow me to upload the profile, but where? With the "Parameter Store" button? Nothing else is jumping out at me. My only previous experience with controllers was with the Edward Lyen models which had a push-button switch on the cable to upload the profile.
Anyway, the errors I'm getting relate to: (the only ones in red)

- 2. overVolt
- 3. lackVolt
- 4. resved

- 17. reseved
- 18. overSpeed
- 19. reseved
- 20. blockprotect fault

- 37. resvd

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
(controller: Sabvoton SVMC72150(M) Motor: QSMotor 72v 3000w, 10" hub, brushless)

View attachment 369475

Glad you managed to connect, that's great news!
It's hard to answer without seeing all the configuration you've done in all the tabs, could you share some screenshots?
Have you done the motor calibration yet?

 

[kenobi66]

Hi Dui, thanks again for your time,
Well no, I'm not confident whether I have connected, per se. It's odd: the Sabvoton IS getting power, (red & black) but when I run the app on my PC I see the Tx light blink but not Rx. That, and the LED on the Sabvoton's case doesn't illuminate. So while I can adjust the settings in the UI on my PC, I cannot confirm whether I've actually connected, linked, to the Sabvoton at all. I mean, the port connection was established, but the Sabvoton just seems to be sitting there like a brick.
All the YouTube videos show the LED lit up and the Tx/Rx lights blinking happily, people running the Hall test without any hassle, and it all seems like it should be very plug'n'play. Never dropped the thing, never shorted the Hall wires on the power leads, nothing stupid that I've read about so far.
I've got a 72v system, two 20Ah Li-Ion battery packs totalling 40Ah, I've got a QSMotor 3000w brushless which as a brand (I'm told) plays very well with the Sabvoton SVMC72150(M). I have a Coulometer tied in to the negative feed, (TK15H, 100v 50a) and it includes what I understand is its own current shunt so I'm not using the Sabvoton's shunt.....and it is getting power and I have tested the system with and without the coulometer/shunt, but there's no change in behavior.
Yeah, this is tough to diagnose over a website's comments section. I wonder if anyone's ever arranged a group Zoom session for newbies setting up their evs, collectively tossing in some loot to a couple of pros for their time via Paypal. Seems like that would be a more effective venue, and learning different configs & settings as a group. I'd be all over that.
It's getting late here but I'll send some screen grabs this next Wed PST, maybe a quick lo-res video if the website can handle it.

 

[amberwolf]

Are you certain the tx and rx are not swapped? Rembmer that tx on one end has to connect to rx on the other, and vice versal.

 

[kenobi66]

Hi Amberwolf, how's it going,
Uhmmm, I'm using the dongle that came with the Sabvoton. Earlier I wasn't able to establish a port connection at all because the dongle had been backwards, but I got that figured out.
But the dongle is standard USB; one end connects to the Sabvoton USB and the other goes into my PC. Unless I'm missing something that should be pretty straightforward, no option to swap anything that I'm aware of. But please correct me if I'm wrong, please. I'm hoping it's something ridiculously simple.
Anyway, I'll post a few screen grabs & hopefully video.

 

[amberwolf]

If the sabvoton was actually USB, then it wouldn't need a dongle to connect to the computer, it'd just take whatever pc-to-host cable is used for that kind of connector...so, it's probably just yet another misuse of the wrong connector for something by "engineers" that aren't.

A bit of poking around finds a few references that indicate it is not USB, but is instead either RS485 or RS232, depending on the vintage of controller and it's source. (link, quote, etc later in the post if it's helpful). The specific data found is for older ones, but is probably still the same now. (if not, well, it's still not USB, and is still some other serial interface and protocol).


So...it is easily possible that the tx / rx are swapped, either inside the "dongle", or at the controller's cable where it is soldered to the board, if it's not a board-mounted plug with no cable.


It's also possible for the "rx" line transceiver on either controller or dongle to be defective, or simply not connected (broken wire, etc).


Since the controller's "main" red light doesn't light up, it might just be dead--no internal LVPS working to create 5v/12v/etc and run everything.

Or it might not have it's ignition/keyswitch wire connected to battery positive, which means that LVPS isn't powered up and so neither is the controller brain.

sabvoton.wire.bike | Sabvoton User's Guide

The serial protocol is undoubtably the most important, and frustrating, rogue change. The USB port on your controller is not USB at all. It's a serial communication module.

Sabvoton switched from the protocol RS-485 and started using RS-232 instead sometime between 2015 and 2016. So moving forward, it's important to know which version you have: the SSC/SVMC? Or the mSSC/SVMC? Using the chart below will help you determine what version of communication you have on your Sabvoton controller.

Model #	Year Built	Serial Protocol	Software Version
SSC-[xxyyy]	2011-2015	RS-485 → USB [nb]	v1.[?]
SVMC-[xxyyy]	2011-2015	RS-485 → USB [nb]	v1.[?]
mSSC-[xxyyy]	2015-2018	RS-232 → USB	v2 or 2.1
mSVMC-[xxyyy]	2015-2018	RS-232 → USB	v2 or 2.1
[m = MQCON, post-2015] [xx = rated voltage] [yyy = rated amperage] [nb = not Bluetooth compatible out of the box]

So hopefully now you know what kind of PC → controller communication you're dealing with. This will become incredibly useful when you attempt to setup the controller. Let's move on.

Also, another thread (unresolved) that has a tx-light-only issue. (there's others, also unresolved).

Help with Sabvoton and USB ($20 PayPal reward!)

:arrow: $20 of beer money via PayPal or Square Cash to whomever helps me solve this problem that has been plaguing me for the past week. I am also willing to donate it to a charity of your choosing. I finally got my Sabvoton MQCON 960150 playing nice with my CA3-DP and Cromotor V3. It took...

endless-sphere.com

 

[kenobi66]

Hi Amberwolf, Hi Dui ni shuo de dui, hi everyone else,
Holy c**p, that's horrifying if the wiring inside the connector is reversed. But yes, the Sabvoton unit's LED isn't lighting, so my spidey-sense is telling me it's maybe something more basic. After completing the video I'm beginning to suspect it's the disconnected yellow wire in the Zapino harness, maybe the ignition wire, not sure. It's been about a year since the old controller blew up & got tossed, so my confidence in the wiring config isn't as high as it ought to be.
Regardless, I'm going to add that reverse-wiring scenario to my list of usual suspects. Thank you VERY much for letting me know about this.
Anyway, attached are the parameter settings for my Sabvoton UI, and I've also created a video which can be viewed here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Owm6EyH-RFDBtgObqG1upgD6lLv5R-O2/view?usp=sharing

(I've made it accessible to "Public" so anyone with the link ought to be able to view it. Please let me know if anyone runs into problems. It's possible the website might frown on links.)

 

[amberwolf]

But yes, the Sabvoton unit's LED isn't lighting, so my spidey-sense is telling me it's maybe something more basic. After completing the video I'm beginning to suspect it's the disconnected yellow wire in the Zapino harness, maybe the ignition wire, not sure.

Then the first thing I would do is make sure that at the controller itself you are getting all the voltages required to operate it, on all it's power and signal wires.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Hi Amberwolf, Hi Dui ni shuo de dui, hi everyone else,
Holy c**p, that's horrifying if the wiring inside the connector is reversed. But yes, the Sabvoton unit's LED isn't lighting, so my spidey-sense is telling me it's maybe something more basic. After completing the video I'm beginning to suspect it's the disconnected yellow wire in the Zapino harness, maybe the ignition wire, not sure. It's been about a year since the old controller blew up & got tossed, so my confidence in the wiring config isn't as high as it ought to be.
Regardless, I'm going to add that reverse-wiring scenario to my list of usual suspects. Thank you VERY much for letting me know about this.
Anyway, attached are the parameter settings for my Sabvoton UI, and I've also created a video which can be viewed here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Owm6EyH-RFDBtgObqG1upgD6lLv5R-O2/view?usp=sharing

(I've made it accessible to "Public" so anyone with the link ought to be able to view it. Please let me know if anyone runs into problems. It's possible the website might frown on links.)

If the LED isn't on it means that your controller isn't receiving power.
So it's probably your ignition wire that doesn't work, for some reason.
I suggest you simply temporarily connect a wire directly from your battery positive to the controller ignition signal. The LED should then switch on and you should be able to communicate with the controller.

If this doesn't work then it means that something might be wrong with the controller itself, but I doubt it will be the case.