E-trike for disabled youth

[E-BikeKit.com]

Same winding as the normal kits?

6x9 winding for the E-TrikeKit
9x7 for the standard 26" E-BikeKit

 

[amberwolf]

Finally, I need a solution to add more/easier braking to the bike. The original Worksman had two hand brakes. One was a front caliper, the other was a front drum(?). So, now there is only the front caliper and there are two concerns. 1) it takes a LOT of effort to stop the bike 2) it's hard for her small hand to squeeze with any amount of pressure.

So, experts, what can I add?

If you are using a sufficient pair of torque arms to completely secure the hubmotor's axle to the front fork legs, so that it cannot be wiggled back and forth by opposing forces, you could use regen(erative) braking, if the controller you have supports it, at the low speeds it'll be run at. (Some controllers only support it down to a certain speed). It would be activated by a switch in or attached to the brake lever or brake cabling. This will not bring it to a complete stop but it will easily give a significant amount of braking from higher speeds, if the controller is setup to do this.

I have an extra hand brake that is only serving as an e-brake.

This can be used to trigger the regenerative braking, once enabled.


Regarding the pressure needed to stop the bike, there are pulleys that can be placed inline with the brake cabling so that the levers provide greater mechanical advantage, making it easier to squeeze harder, but it also means that there will likely be less modulation of the brakes available, meaning less difference between barely braking and locking up the wheel. I can't remember the name of the website that carries these.

I believe the fittings are on the motor for a brake disk, but I don't think the fork has the needed clearance. Can I get a fork with with the needed mounting points for the disk caliper that is wide enough for the wheel with the motor?

If the fork is wide enough to handle the disc itself without rubbing, and has mounts for the caliper, but the caliper doesn't match up with the disc or the caliper rubs on the motor cover, there are ways around that.

If the fork does not have caliper mounting points, there are some steel forks including one by Surly that do have the mounting points and also still has dropouts tough enough to not worry about a hubmotor in them even if it was higher powered.

Should I change out the gear to a coaster brake? It's something she knows how to do, but would still take a heck of a lot of pressure to stop. And, I'd want to add the cutout components discussed before. What about rear disk brakes? Is that even possible (within reason)?

Rear brakes are possible but I'm not sure exactly what you'd need to do to the frame or wheels to put them on. Rear disc seems the easiest without seeing exactly what you've got there, but would need mounts added to the frame, and hubs that can mount them (or mounts made that can be bolted or otherwise secured to the existing hubs).

 

[teklektik]

For the sake of discussion, here is the baseline recommendation as posted earlier, but with the new eTrikeKit:

1. (PT3CB-JR) with 3-speed, coaster brake, and front drum brake. with substituted front caliper - $555.
2. Electric Trike Conversion Kit - FRONT 500W, Fwd/Rev, Speed Limiting, 'Fuel Gauge', 36v 12Ah SLA Battery - $696

Total = $555 + $636 = $1251. This is a pretty complete package that seems to address all the needs with the exception of ebrakes on the coaster brake which can be added as a DIY task - not too difficult.

For reference:

Finally, I need a solution to add more/easier braking to the bike. The original Worksman had two hand brakes. One was a front caliper, the other was a front drum(?). So, now there is only the front caliper and there are two concerns. 1) it takes a LOT of effort to stop the bike 2) it's hard for her small hand to squeeze with any amount of pressure.

So, experts, what can I add? I believe the fittings are on the motor for a brake disk, but I don't think the fork has the needed clearance. Can I get a fork with the needed mounting points for the disk caliper that is wide enough for the wheel with the motor? I have an extra hand brake that is only serving as an e-brake. Should I change out the gear to a coaster brake? It's something she knows how to do, but would still take a heck of a lot of pressure to stop. And, I'd want to add the cutout components discussed before. What about rear disk brakes? Is that even possible (within reason)?

So - I'm a little confused about exactly what you have in hand - a little clarification will help. It's not clear to me what motor kit and Worksman trike were used to build your prototype - they do seem different than the recommendation above. This may be fine, but let's muddle through this just to be sure...

1. You mention the Worksman Lightning which seems pretty close to what was discussed earlier except that it does not have the FWD/REV switch on the throttle and so is not really the new e-TrikeKit. It does have a front caliper and rear coaster but appears to be a single speed where a three speed may encourage more pedaling and make the bike more manageable if the battery runs down.
2. You mention they showed you steps to modify the controller to limit the speed. This is surprising because they seemed in phone conversations to be adamant about modifications voiding the warrantee. Without more details, it's unclear that the dual speed 10mph-FWD/3mph-REV limiting of the new e-TrikeKit can be installed in your controller - typically such modifications yield only a single speed limitation that would apply to both Fwd and Rev.
3. Similarly, it's unclear that Fwd/Rev can easily be retrofit to your controller or that the change will not void the warrantee.
4. You describe the trike as having a front caliper brake and mention "Should I change out the gear to a coaster brake?". Does this mean it has no rear brakes at all? This does not sound like the Lightning (which seems to be based on the PTCB-Jr), but more like one of the first two single speed Port-o-Trikes above.

I may have misunderstood, so please help if this misrepresents the situation.

I'm guessing that you got a good price on the prototype, but stepping back, it seems there may be shortfalls in these areas: Fwd/Rev, coaster brake, 3-speed shifter, dual speed limiting (Fwd/Rev different). If you feel any of these are important, then you need to chase down how the vendors can help you achieve them ASAP. The problem that we struggled with in this project is that both vendors have pretty unusual custom products, and eBikeKit is (perhaps not unreasonably) unwilling to provide warrantee support for a modified system. This means that if they can't supply it, you can't have it - hence picking the right kit/trike to start is paramount. So here are some questions to clarify the situation:

1. The questions you must answer yourself are:
   1. Is my daughter strong enough to back up the trike if it rolls against a curb, etc, or does she need Fwd/Rev?
   2. Can she handle the same speed limiting in Rev and in Fwd (10mph)?
   3. Can she stop this trike with/without a coaster brake?
   4. Can she handle a three speed shifter, and how important is the therapy/exercise component of the bike experience?
2. The questions you must pose to Worksman are:
   1. Can I upgrade my trike with single speed or 3-speed coaster brake and how much will it cost?
3. The questions you need to pose to eBikeKit are:
   1. Will modifications to the controller or motor wiring void the warrantee?
   2. Can they show you how to add a FWD/REV switch?
   3. Will the modification they outlined provide a single speed limiting for FWD+REV or the two different speeds of the new eTrikeKit?
   4. Will they swap out the throttle/controller with those from the eTrikeKit to obtain the standard out-of-box functionality that kit provides (assuming that only these parts need upgrade)?
   5. If you cannot swap the parts, how much will it cost to purchase the eTrikeKit throttle/controller outright or otherwise upgrade the kit to an eTrikeKit?

If the answers end up leaving you with missing features that you feel are important or with unmanageable costs to retrofit them, the best course may be backing up and exchanging your prototype for the motor kit and trike at the top of this post.

Apologies if all this was clear, but it seemed worth running over just to be sure something in all these many posts was not overlooked. :wink:

===========
As far as switching to disc - this will improve the stopping power and you may be able to swap forks (a problem here is the short custom Worksman fork for 20" wheel) or get mounts welded to your current fork. However, you are not going to see a 5x reduction in effort to apply the brake. The required coordination to grab and squeeze the lever will be unchanged. Tuning up your calipers will probably improve what you have, but I personally believe that a coaster brake which uses major leg muscles and requires minimal coordination is the best choice (but that's just me).

Adding rear brakes is likely possible, but Worksman does not appear to provide the option so you are going down a path of re-engineering the rear end which will likely be more trouble and expense than it's worth. And as with the front, coordination to operate the lever will be a requirement.

As amberwolf points out, a kind of electrical braking effect can normally be had from the controller. This is often applied simply by pressing a button on the throttle. In this case, the controller does not appear to provide it (no regen switch visible, no regen switch wiring on the controller, and no mention in the doc). Although this might be wrangled by tinkering with the motor connections, we once again run into the warrantee issue when changing or modifying components.

The pulleys that amberwolf mentioned sound interesting - delicate brake modulation at only 10mph is probably not a huge consideration so this might be worth pursuing.

 

[JDPA]

So - I'm a little confused about exactly what you have in hand - a little clarification will help. It's not clear to me what motor kit and Worksman trike were used to build your prototype - they do seem different than the recommendation above. This may be fine, but let's muddle through this just to be sure...

In hopes of clarifying. First, I don't think the Worksman Lightning description is correct based on the kit I saw at E-BikeKit as well as the link provided http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=145&parent=22. The proto is everything the kit described:

• Twist throttle

• Forward/Reverse

• Speed limited reverse

• Dual e-brake

• battery indicator

• 500W motor

I believe the Worksman Lightning is expected to be built on the PTCB, the proto I have is just the plain PT (no coaster brakes). That's the only difference between what I expect the final product from Worksman to be.

In regards to voiding warranties, quote me now, I'm not concerned. The speed limiting is a safety issue and I'd risk blowing a controller if I couldn't find a stock solution. Even 10MPH will be too fast for starters. But, Jason is aware of my needs and if he thinks of something better, I wouldn't be surprised if he contacts me.

# The questions you must pose to Worksman are:

1. Can I upgrade my trike with single speed or 3-speed coaster brake and how much will it cost?

In the parts list for Worksman http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/2011partspricelist.pdf there are multiple Coaster Brakes and Conversion kits listed 300, 301, etc... I am not at that point yet, but will contact Worksman to inquire when I am ready. I would expect this is not a major conversion when I'm starting with a Worksman PT.

From the initial feed back, coaster brakes (if parts are available from Worksman) may be my easiest solution. The mechanics of the pulley system are intriguing and I will look at that as well. I have no idea about the regenerative ability of the controller.

Thank you again. teklektik, hope this clarifies things. The proto is pretty darn close to what I believe Worksman's product is. It's definitely representative of the E-TrikeKit. Keep the braking ideas coming!

 

[dogman dan]

6x9 (2809) winding in the trike kit. Right on! That makes it a good candidate for regular bikes too, that have hills steeper than normal. It doesn't have to be a trike, to be a good cargo bike that might like a slower than normal motor.

A small percentage of people really do need a slower winding than 9x7 (2807). But finding slower windings is a problem, since vendors need volume to make a buck. Now I can at least point them to a place that has 6x9's in a front hub.

 

[E-BikeKit.com]

6x9 (2809) winding in the trike kit. Right on! That makes it a good candidate for regular bikes too, that have hills steeper than normal. It doesn't have to be a trike, to be a good cargo bike that might like a slower than normal motor.

A small percentage of people really do need a slower winding than 9x7 (2807). But finding slower windings is a problem, since vendors need volume to make a buck. Now I can at least point them to a place that has 6x9's in a front hub.

We don't presently offer this front hub motor wheel solo. At this time it is too much of a drain on resources to stock and offer just the motors/wheels. The only stock we have are built into 20" wheels and we're charging for building that kit into larger wheel sizes.

 

[teklektik]

So - I'm a little confused about exactly what you have in hand - a little clarification will help. It's not clear to me what motor kit and Worksman trike were used to build your prototype - they do seem different than the recommendation above. This may be fine, but let's muddle through this just to be sure...

In hopes of clarifying. First, ... The proto is everything the (trike) kit described...

Alrighty then - this is great. I think mention of the Lightning was muddying the waters a bit because it's description points to a less full-featured product. The eTrikeKit, however, gets you all the electronic goodies that you need and that would likely be challenging to add to the stock controller.

In regards to voiding warranties, quote me now, I'm not concerned.

This is a deal-maker. Folks often feel bound by this, but you seem to have the appropriate Endless-Sphere DIY-I-can-make-it-better mindset so many doors are opened. :wink:

The speed limiting is a safety issue and I'd risk blowing a controller if I couldn't find a stock solution. Even 10MPH will be too fast for starters.

With the special features of the eTrikeKit controller, a couple of simple solutions spring to mind. It seems Jason has discussed both with you, a small controller modification or a part or two in-line with the throttle connection as a plug-in.

# The questions you must pose to Worksman are:

1. Can I upgrade my trike with single speed or 3-speed coaster brake and how much will it cost?

In the parts list for Worksman http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/2011partspricelist.pdf there are multiple Coaster Brakes and Conversion kits listed 300, 301, etc... I am not at that point yet, but will contact Worksman to inquire when I am ready. I would expect this is not a major conversion when I'm starting with a Worksman PT.

Good sleuthing on the parts list! It's too bad there is not an exploded diagram that verifies the parts in your or different models - this is a possible sticky point. I might suggest a quick telephone call now just to verify your expectation. I confess to sharing your expectation, the Worksman products appear to derive their models from a base platform, but a call is quick

From the initial feedback, coaster brakes (if parts are available from Worksman) may be my easiest solution.

I believe so. I think the simplest solution is a small chain tensioner wheel on a short spring-loaded arm that applies a downward pressure to the lower chain run. This section of chain normally sags when pedaling but pulls up under tension when back-pedaling to apply the coaster brake. This action will rotate the spring-loaded tensioner arm upward which can be arranged to close a small switch. The two connections from this switch need to be outfitted with the proper connector and plugged in as an ebrake. This should do what you need and can be fabricated with hardware store aluminum and off-the-shelf bike parts. The only caveat is to ensure there is sufficient tension in the arm to avoid unwanted operation due to chain bounce/slap while pedaling. Let us know if you need more help with this.

Congrats on your purchase and progress on this project. Things have certainly moved along nicely since this time last week

 

[JDPA]

Spoke to Al at Worksman. If I have the mounting bracket, the Coaster brake hub is a ~$65 part. He was upselling me to the 3 speed Coaster brake set up which would run about $200. While I don't expect my daughter to manipulate the gears at this point, would it be worth the outlay? Is the gear shifter handle bar mounted?

Also, I think at least one of you out there has a Worksman. I think I have the mounting bracket from what he described, but can anyone tell me what I will be looking for? I'm not at the trike right now (work ) Thanks.

 

[teklektik]

In earlier posts there was a list of links to chain idlers and tensioners that can either be used directly or can donate parts for a custom unit.

The switch assembly itself can be fabricated but the simplest solution is to use an existing motorcycle brake light switch and attach the spring pull to the chain tensioner arm. Here is a typical candidate component that will close the ebrake connection when under tension and that has a little spring tension relief to allow extra motion beyond the trip point w/o damaging the switch.

http://www.motosport.com/cruiser/DRAG-SPECIALTIES-MECHANICAL-REAR-STOPLIGHT-SWITCH


Other similar options exist, search eBay 'motorcycle brake switch' or 'bike brake switch'. Similar searches on Google of course. Some of these are a little nicer in that they have a threaded neck that allows easier and more precise adjustment of the trip point. The tensioner arm itself may need to be L-shaped with the pivot in the heel to both track the chain and offer the proper geometry to work the switch pull reliably.


If you have an extra ebrake in hand, it might donate the cable and connector to hook to this switch. Otherwise it looks like the cable can be pieced together with Radio Shack stuff. Jason can probably help you - maybe he has a dead donor ebrake you can obtain.

Anyhow - you get the drift .

 

[teklektik]

Not sure about the mounting details of the Worksman - never saw one in real life.

Even if you just preset the gear for her, the 3 speed will give you the option of trading pedaling speed for force. A low force, mid-speed cadence is what you are after to encourage pedaling. Too slow and the required force is too high. Depending on terrain and as she gets older/stronger, these aspects will change so the option of more gears will make the bike more fun to ride and encourage the therapeutic pedaling you are after.

 

[ddk]

instead of building a tricycle you could purchase an EMoto or similar trike already assembled with both a pedelec and a throttle for under $1500 in the states. If you live in the usa check out e-e-e-bay

The EMoto is equipped with a Panasonic lithium 9AH battery with a range of 5-10 miles and the battery is as easy to charge as an SLA battery, only lighter
The pedelc system takes a few minutes to get used too and it is on full-time unless over-ridden by the twist throttle or the e-brake.
It uses a MXUS front-geared hub motor speed-limited to 8 MPH, which is just about right for a standard upright delta tricycle, as they are easy to tip if turned too sharply. The pedal gearing is also set at about 8 mph tops

I own one and I like it
I've had some experience with some other manufactured tricycles and this year they are mostly offering Lithium batteries.However, the Panasonic battery is pretty safe and light weight with a very good connection system, making it very easy to put on/take off the trike

having read though this whole thread...
I stand by my recommendation
additional info
the trike is 16" with 150mm cranks and 24" wheels- reality fits someone from just over 4' tall on up
The 24" rear wheels can easily be re-worked to 20" if need be.
I have the seat and handlebars on my trike adjusted at their highest setting whereas I wished they went a little higher.
The trike comes with a six speed derailleur, although I can only seem to get mine adjusted for five speeds... so the trike has a five-speed derailleur...
The top speed of the trike either pedaled-only or pedal-assisted is 8mph, which is plenty fast. In 5th gear it has a top speed of 5.5 mph.
The PAS system measures torque and cadence and is somewhat easier to use than a simple PAS system (lol-recently rode a simple PAS-controlled bike... not the same feeling at all)
The brakes (front rim and rear band brakes) are easy enough to pull, as my strength is limited. LOL I can hardly pedal a bike without assistance.
Again, the 9A Panasonic lithium battery with an internal BMS is as simple to re-charge as an SLA battery, in addition to being small and lightweight. Plug the charger into the (standard dc connector) battery wait a couple of hours for the light to change from red to green. even I can handle that. You can remove the battery (key-locked) or leaveit on the trike for re-charging. One unsafe feature is the trike's controller doesn't automatically turn off if recharging the battery on the trike
However the battery has an off/on switch that you should normally turn off when re-charging, although you don't have to do so.
The trike, with battery mounted, weighs ~65 pounds making it probably the lightest e-tricycle of it's size... Exchange the (steel) basket for something lighter to reduce the weight further.

otherwise good luck with your build.

BMS battery sells the stuff you need i.e limited controllers, a torque and cadence PAS system or the simple PAS system and low-speed motors fitted to a front wheel from 16" on up. Disc brakes etc. (google: bmsbattery)
Be good if you knew someone who speaks the lingo, however

 

[Jaysen Turner]

E-trike for disabled youth.............Hello,YES! http://www.tridynamic.com

[/attachment]View attachment IMG_6083.MOVView attachment 3

 

[Jeremy Harris]

E-trike for disabled youth.............Hello,YES!

Replying to an old post on the day you join this forum, with a spam ad for your own business isn't going to win you any friends around here...................

Why not take some time to make a useful contribution to the forum before hitting us with ads for your company?

 

[Jaysen Turner]

" a useful contribution" (above) Sorry,..."friend" Just trying to help educate here. Are you mad about disabled children becoming enabled far beyond what men have imagined? ....I will remove the post if it will satisfy you .




John 15:12-15 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

" a useful contribution" (above) Sorry,..."friend" Just trying to help educate here. Are you mad about disabled children becoming enabled far beyond what men have imagined? ....I will remove the post if it will satisfy you .

John 15:12-15 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

Just pointing out that this forum generally has a low tolerance for spammers, and your first two posts here were just blatant adverts for your business, with no useful contribution to either discussion.

This isn't a commercial advertising forum, it's one for free and open sharing of information and ideas. There is a dedicated section here for advertising, to stop discussion threads being derailed like this by people who's only interest is to advertise their own products.

Why not just play by the forum rules and post your ads in the right place?

 

[Jaysen Turner]

I'm so sorry you seem to have misjudged my true intentions here.

The website is educational. www.tridynamic.com

I have not sold one i.e. not for sale

CAN be custom made in the USA

I will be happy to delete if it will make you happy?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm so sorry you seem to have misjudged my true intentions here.

The website is educational.

I have not sold one i.e. not for sale

CAN be custom made in the USA

I will be happy to delete if it will make you happy?

It's not about "making me happy". As already said, this is a light electric vehicle, mainly ebike, discussion forum (and a very international one, even if it is Canadian owned and run), not an advertising hoarding. The forum gets hit with a fair number of spammers every day, people who join and immediately post links to websites.

I, and many others here, make it a rule not to click on any advert hyperlink posted in the first handful of posts from any new member, simply because the incidence of malicious links we get from such sources has been shown to be extremely high.

Joining a forum and posting personal hyperlinks with no post content is a bit like walking into a strange bar, hoping to make friends, but just standing at the door and yelling adverts at people. A better approach would be to join in some discussions, make a useful contribution in the conversations and so gain the trust and respect of forum members.

PS: A very large number of us aren't in the US, so being US custom made isn't really a useful attribute for a lot of people!

 

[Jaysen Turner]

Well, if you say so. Go ahaead and click it.....you will be Glad you did. Good Morning

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Well, if you say so. Go ahaead and click it.....you will be Glad you did. Good Morning

Absolutely not, given past experience with links posted here in the first posts from new members, and I'd strongly suggest others don't click it either.

Why not do as suggested and take the time to contribute to these threads, so people can understand that you may have something useful to share with us and gain confidence you're not just a spammer?

 

[ebent]

Jeremy,

Thanks for taking the time to set the record straight. We are sensative to that kind of behavior. In addition I am very uncomfortable about preaching religious stuff weather I belive the same or not. This is not the place for that either. I will not click a link from a new poster either. You provided reasonable etiquite and protocol in a very informing and considerate way. You should be thanked not challanged and confronted.

 

[Punx0r]

Sorry,..."friend" Just trying to help educate here. Are you mad about disabled children becoming enabled far beyond what men have imagined?

I heartily commend anyone helping disabled children on a non-profit basis 8)

There's no moral high ground any other way!