Ebike KICKSTARTER!

[sflorlando]

Hello All,

Let me start off with a little background. My nephew an engineering student at FSU asked if I had any ideas on something missing in the marketplace. His school is offering grants for business ideas. Of course the first thing to come to my mind was EBIKES!

Like many of you I have been actively watching the forums, browsing craigslist and ebay looking for the perfect ebike frame. I always get very excited when I see the next ebike and am always sadly disappointed when I notice the bike is simply vaporware with a release date of sometime next year.

Sure there are some really nice frames out there that are available for purchase now: http://www.torquebikes.com/, https://www.phasorcycles.com/, http://www.greyb.org/ but again I am disappointed when I see the 3-6 month waiting period, and the $1000-$3000 price tag, for just the frame. There designs are awesome and praise should be given to them for the risks they have taken, but we need something everyone can afford to push the ebike revolution!

On the other side of the spectrum are cheap bikes you can get at walmart. $100 for a fully functional bike…are you kidding me.

Makes you wonder why the guys from phasor or greyborg just don’t go out and have china mass make them. Its all about capital investment, quantity of scale and assumed risk in the marketplace. Sure walmart can get bikes for $100 each since they buy them at 100,000 units a time. There has to be a middle ground. A strike even point where we can get a thousand frames built that gets the price around where we need, yet large enough that a manufacturer either here or broad can make them cheaply. I know we wont hit hundred dollars but maybe we can hit three to four hundred.

Introduce the solution...Kickstarter.com. Kickstarter is a cool website that allows designers, developer’s, idea men an avenue to introduce something to the world. If people like the product they invest in it. If they don’t, then nothing happens…all money is returned, nothing is wasted except the time coming up with the ad.

Ebikes on kickstarter is nothing new.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/faradaybikes/faraday-porteur

This is a bike that came out that got $180,000 in funding to make not vaporware. They sold more than 200 of those boutique bikes for $3500.00 each.
More than that…According to their ad, here are some of their actual numbers. There was 63 people that gave $5 for nothing, 79 people that gave $15. 96 people that gave $35 for a t-shit. 27 people that gave $100 for a poster. 5 people that gave $150. 4 that gave $250. In other words...$9,130.00 was given to the project that never received a bike.

We need to come up with an actual product, have some one build it, get some marketing people involved, get some manufacturing people involved. Have a company in china manufacture it if there are enough people that want it. Come up with something that we can get funded. Hopefully we can do something better that the ugly faraday bike. We start off with something that quite a few people would want…a complete ebike, sell a bunch of frames to people that want to build their own, sell some random stuff (t-shirts, bamboo mouse pads, flipflops, etc) for donating to the cause. All we need is a cool design, a save the world theme, and a complete working prototype, and we may get this off the ground!

Who knows, there are tons of examples on kickstarter that seemed small but became very successful projects.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console?ref=most-funded
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...dable-professional-3d-printer?ref=most-funded
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/limemouse/lifx-the-light-bulb-reinvented?ref=most-funded
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game?ref=most-funded

We need a custom made ebike frame for the masses! An ebike frame with plenty of battery storage, customizeable swing arms (Yes David its time for a full suspension bike!) with huge beefy torque arms. We can sell a complete ebike with some cheap geared motors along with some cheap SLA batteries. The people on this forum will not want the complete bike, but what it will do is give us plenty of room for our batteries. It will allow us to sell more bikes. Get the price down cheaper.

Now I dont have any preconceived thoughts that this will be easy. That there will not be huge hiccups along the way, but I think with the E-sphere's help we can come up with something that many people will like (not everyone). We have some extremely gifted engineers, marketting people, business minded people and other people that we should be able to pull our minds together and come up with something.

Again on the other side we do have some very strong headed people that will
say we cant do this, that it is impossible, but I think we can get past that and come up with something amazing!

I'm throwing this out on the forum to get some feedback and some assistance and to find out if anyone is interested in the idea.

 

[sabongi]

Sure it´s a nice idea.
For inexpensive bikes, shouldn´t we look for regular bikes and design a nice battery/controller case inside the frame triangle? I suppose it´s the only thing conversion kits are still missing.

My idea:

XC full suspension frame, light and low cost.
MAC geared motors, since most people need more torque than speed.
LiFePo4 batteries, since they can be abused and still be safe.
Batteries and controller encased inside the frame triangle, no wires exposed!

 

[spinningmagnets]

I would recomend designing a full-suspension, but start out with a hardtail based on the same geometry. Merely omit the joints and shock for the hardtail.

A higher pivot point will reduce "squat". There is no single design that will satisfy evryone. Do you want a rear hubmotor? or a non-hub? If a non-hub, do you want a BB-drive or a left side drive (or a design that allows the customer to chose either one?).

An off-road Downhill (DH) frame will have a different rake and wheelbase than a street commuter. Design a 20-Ah battery before you design a frame for it to fit in, then a 15-Ah would easily fit. Best of luck with whatever you decide...

edit: use a 1-1/8" head tube, this will allow a wide selection of suspension and non-suspension forks.

 

[MadRhino]

The problem is that there is no consensus, about what is a good frame to build with.
People have various requirements, from cargo to performance.
The western market is small, and producing many different frames in small series is very expansive.

I build on DH racing frames, I would gladly spend 2K $ for a frame that is ebike specific with equal geometry and performance.
So far, only the stealth fighter offers some (moderate) interest to me, and they don't sell the frame alone.

I am building one every year, I chose this one in large size to build this spring time.
Such a variable geometry frame, with integrated battery compartments in the top and down tubes, would be worth over 2K $ for me.
...But how many would buy it, making it worth the investment ?

 

[sflorlando]

Good info guys, lets keep the conversation positive and keep that momentum forward.

THis is similiar to a frame that I would like to have buildt. Changes would have to be made to make it appear less motorcycle like, and include peddles.

The beauty of this idea about using kickstarter is the options it gives us. A frame like above would not make sense to a lot of us if the price was $2000.00. Heck, not all people would want it for half that price. But if we can get that price down to a very reasonable number, I gurantee you will see a lot of people recommending these bones to there colleagues and would even start a community of modders that takes the simple frame, stretches it to make a commuter, a cargo bike whatever.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I've written several responses to your first message OP, but it all ends up being a rant. Fck off with your want to mass produce stuff by slaves in china. Mass production is the only path to cheap frames. As has been noted, the problem is many people want different kinds of frames or bicycles. There is no middle ground, unless you know of some cheap metal 3d printers that can print strong bicycle frames (doesn't exist).

 

[zombiess]

Sure there are some really nice frames out there that are available for purchase now: http://www.torquebikes.com/, https://www.phasorcycles.com/, http://www.greyb.org/ but again I am disappointed when I see the 3-6 month waiting period, and the $1000-$3000 price tag, for just the frame. There designs are awesome and praise should be given to them for the risks they have taken, but we need something everyone can afford to push the ebike revolution!

On the other side of the spectrum are cheap bikes you can get at walmart. $100 for a fully functional bike…are you kidding me.
Makes you wonder why the guys from phasor or greyborg just don’t go out and have china mass make them. Its all about capital investment, quantity of scale and assumed risk in the marketplace. Sure walmart can get bikes for $100 each since they buy them at 100,000 units a time. There has to be a middle ground. A strike even point where we can get a thousand frames built that gets the price around where we need, yet large enough that a manufacturer either here or broad can make them cheaply. I know we wont hit hundred dollars but maybe we can hit three to four hundred.

Have ever tried to bring a product to production? If not, then on paper it appears as simple as making an elephant fly by drawing wings on it. Let's say you have a perfectly designed schematic drawings, a working example and you send it all to China along with the money to be produced for cheap. Your out come will most likely be the following:

1. They completely ignore everything you've given them and produce what ever the hell they want and call it your product
2. It's produced with substandard materials or techniques by value engineering your requirements to maximize their profits
3. They can't read your schematic drawings and get it wrong on a mass scale leaving you to correct or scrap it at your own expense.
4. On the very almost impossible chance they do produce what you want with quality materials and craftsmanship (Hah!) they will sell copies out the back door for even less than they sell them to you for.

If you want someone to produce it for you, you or someone you trust better be onsite at the manufacturing facility and know exactly wtf they are talking about and how to deal with Chinese culture to ensure your finished product is as required.

I personally haven't dealt with Chinese manufactures myself, but I know MANY people who have and have heard of only maybe a small percent of the pitfalls. I do have some first hand experience in how they do construction due to a company I worked for and being brought up to speed on the comedy of errors that follows over the many years I worked there and traveled to China. Just imagine you are building a mega resort and have 1 million square feet of tile that needs to be installed and the Chinese subcontractor installed all 1 million square feet of it upside down. BTW, this tile example really did happen and it's as simple as handing someone who installs tile and asking them to install it.... and they still screw it up.
Oh yeah, the culture thing. Make damn sure you are versed in Chinese business practices. They are masters of documenting and passing the blame to someone else.

Sorry if this appears to be a rant, it's not meant to be, just want to give a little insight.

There are successful way to deal with manufacturers and one of them is to only have them make certain parts, have the use of the part be unknown to the manufacture, have assembly done by a different company (preferably not in China) and familiarize yourself with the culture and learn how to manipulate them into doing it correctly.

 

[spinningmagnets]

sflorlando, zombiess is over-reacting. It's really simple to make a frame. The best place for you to start is to buy a wire-feed welder, and a tube fish-mouth cutter, along with a tube bender (the manual benders are the cheapest way to start out). A chop-saw would be nice, but you can get by for two frames just using an angle-grinder with a thin abrasive wheel (hacksaws take too long). Buy some tube and practice cutting, bending, and welding the pieces together (many good tutorials on the web).

Your first frame will likely need some tweaks to get it in ridable condition, but the second version should be much better. The benefits of your frame design should be obvious when you show the running frame to kickstarter, but I highly recommend you do a practice-run of priming and painting the first frame, and then with that experience fresh on your mind...you can do a "decent" job of painting the frame you'll be showcasing to kickstarter.

The Faraday Porteur had a running, painted, and fully outfitted bicycle to show kickstarter, but if all you have is a drawing then I doubt you'll get much traction from investors.

Greyborg frame development
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8446

$365 E-bike specific frame production
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37530

 

[zombiess]

Spinningmagnents I was only referring to China production as mentioned and hurdles to look out for. Building on your own is entirely different. No disrespect meant.

 

[neptronix]

Excellent points, spinningmagnets.

Dealing with China is a pain in the ass but maybe taiwan is easier. I believe yuba and extracycle stuff is made in taiwan. Imagine the effort required in getting a very custom, odd shaped thing made like those. There must be a reason why they go with taiwan rather than China. Just sayin.

 

[sflorlando]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I like the positive remarks...the "bowl of salad" remarks was un called for. I understand that there maybe people here that dont believe in sending work overseas where it can be manufactured stateside.

The problem I see is simple, there is a market for a finished ebike frame but no one has yet come up with a design that is affordable and readily available. Currently our solution has been to go to walmart or craigslist, buy a cheap bike and modify it for our use. What do we get as our end result..a china made bike that looks terrible, handles terribly and something that will not become main stream.

If that person is me or someone else, I think that having the sphere's recommendation and input would help everyones goals.

A custom buildt united states designed and manufactored bike is not out of the question. In fact my first hope would be building it state side. If there is someone on site that manufactures and designs bikes, I tell them to create a kickstarter to launch the product or get with me so we can build a prototype. The whole dynamics of this venture changes when you go from designing one bike up to 1000 bikes. Can anyone tell me for certain how many people would be interested in a complete e-bike for $1000.00 or a perfect frame for $300?

I think people get so tied up in the details that they can get in their own way. A prototype needs to be made or an old design needs to be refreshed. Faraday bikes was started by a avid bike rider that wanted to create something different. He connected with a custom bike maker and came up with the Faraday Bike. They sold hundreds of $3500.00 bikes with a currie geared motor with a 500wh battery. I think the endless-sphere can come up with something better.

 

[neptronix]

By the way, surly bikes are made in taiwan too.
I like to support my country, but cost of living and cost of materials is lower there, so the bike comes out cheaper.

I'm not going to give you specific details on where i got these numbers, but frames can come fully finished out of taiwan for $100-$200 each when made in the volumes that surly, xytracycle, yuba, etc make them at.

The rest is profit for the manufacturer AND the dealer.

That's what you're competing with when you want to make something here in the USA.
That's the reality of our environmental regulations, trade agreement, parts cost, labor cost etc. in these times.

 

[Dauntless]

Changes would have to be made to make it appear less motorcycle like. . . .

Ummm, no. Looking like a motorcycle can be good. Schwinn was a failed motorcycle company that stayed in business because their motorcycle like bicycle sold so well. It's been close to a century, motorcycles themselves changed dramatically and there's some impressive advancements in bicycles, but there's still cheap knockoffs of that old schwinn selling at WalMart for $90.

Making it look like a motorcycle is an excellent idea.

Can anyone tell me for certain how many people would be interested in a complete e-bike for $1000.00 or a perfect frame for $300?

Of course not. For one thing, the future demand itself is flexible.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Pick up a welder and an angle grinder and start assembling frames dude. I don't want stuff made by slaves, that's all, it's not about jobs or anything like that. You've got a dream, great. It's great right up until you want to use slave labor. There are slaves in the US, the prison system, illegal immigrants and so on, if you used them for your labor on your projects, I'd frown upon that as well.

There is no such thing as a 'perfect frame', it's already been said, your perfect frame will be worthless to the next guy. My comments are far from uncalled for, I don't like slave labor. Make all the bikes in the world, that's cool. I think bicycles are fantastic. I think slave labor is the opposite. I am not against your goal, I am against slave labor.

If not wanting to use slave labor is getting hung up on details, tough. There are plenty of guys who know how to weld in the US. Check out weldingweb.com

 

[spinningmagnets]

...No disrespect meant

I love you, brother!, and you do great work. No offense taken.

The PiCycle, and the Faraday Porteur are "art" bikes.
http://www.electricbike.com/picycle/
http://www.electricbike.com/faraday/

The expensive price has nothing to do with the electric portion of their design. The Porteur has an incredibly small battery, so that it can fit inside the dual top-tubes. $400 for a replacement 4.4-Ah pack made from A123 cells...and that's for a 24V system driving a small 250W front geared hub.

The PiCycle has a pretty decent power system, but its $6,000. So...subtract $1,500 for a fully warranteed E-bike kit and battery, and the bike becomes a $4,500 frame (all numbers approximate).

All I was getting at was, you're going to get a dozen opinions about the ideal E-bike frame. Once you've determined what YOU would like to produce for your Kickstarter, you will need a rolling frame to show investors. Are you going to pay a custom fab shop to make the prototype for about $1,500? (with a lot of delays/waiting and back-and-forth with the shop about details), or...are you going to pay $1,000 for the tools and get started fairly quick with no delays because it's in your own garage?

My take on an electric bike: for off-road with a rear hub, you can't compete with the Stealth Fighter/Bomber (I could be wrong). Make a 2-speed chain-trans with a non-hub motor like Johns "mini-monster" for under $4,000...you might sell a few (I could be wrong)

For a street commuter, I would recommend the posture of the Electra Townie. Make sure the seat-tube is low enough that a Thudbuster seat-post will fit on the hard-tail version, with your feet still flat on the ground at a stop. Extend the rear of the frame long enough so you could fit a 7-inch diameter MAC non-hub just behind the seat-tube (BB-drive, left-side drive, right side parallel-drive). The rear drop-outs should be the thick steel clamping style for hub customers. Don't sell front forks, let the customer choose, and if they wreck with a high-powered front hub, you are not liable.

Batteries are a retailers nightmare, make ample space in the frame for a 20-Ah, but let the customer buy whatever they want from someone else.

If you survive to that point, perhaps then offer a high-powered off-road version with rear suspension (draw the full-sus first so you can use some of the same parts on both).

The rear rack should be welded to the frame, and allow one of those sandwich batteries to slide in as a booster pack (like in the graphic above). Welded brackets for rear disc brake and also rear V-brake. Head tube should have welded tabs so customers can later purchase a front basket that can be solidly bolted on...

 

[sk8norcal]

I believe Yuba cargobikes are made in China...

I think selling just a frame won't work on kickstarter.
people want a complete.
seems like successful products on kickstarter need a mass appeal.

5 e-vehicles made over 100k on kickstarter (under design)

1) boosted
2) zboard
3) elf e-velo trike
4) faraday
5) spnkix

 

[Chalo]

By the way, surly bikes are made in taiwan too.
I like to support my country, but cost of living and cost of materials is lower there, so the bike comes out cheaper.

Maybe cost of living is lower, and maybe not. It's a crowded island. It's likely Taiwanese wages are lower because workers are satisfied with less, not because their money goes farther. I doubt they are getting much of a break on materials costs, because raw materials and energy must all be imported.

In any case, the Taiwanese have demonstrated themselves to be the world's best at making okay-to-excellent quality bicycles and parts for very reasonable prices. I think production efficiency, knowledge base, and specialization have a lot to do with that.

I'm not going to give you specific details on where i got these numbers, but frames can come fully finished out of taiwan for $100-$200 each when made in the volumes that surly, xytracycle, yuba, etc make them at.

The rest is profit for the manufacturer AND the dealer.

Profit = why people everywhere do things that are not fun or convenient for them. And why they take business risks.

Also, it costs money to get the word out about your product, and to move it around to distribution points, and to hold it in inventory until you sell it, and to absorb the units that don't sell because you misjudged the market for a certain color (or the distribution of heights of people who are interested enough to buy your frame). If you get it all right enough, you make a profit and try it again next season. Get anything wrong, and you had better hope last year's profits can cover this year's losses.

Personally, I think it's delusional to consider a purpose-built specialty e-bike frame for the hobbyist market too expensive at $1000.

 

[Chalo]

Making it look like a motorcycle is an excellent idea.

Only if you want people to demand that you follow the same rules as other motorcyclists. Look at the rancor that's been stirred up here and there by scooter-styled e-bikes. Ride an e-bike that resembles a motocross bike on bike paths, bike lanes, and sidewalks, and see just how quickly you'll have both car drivers and bicyclists asking the local authorities to ban your machine.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

I will add that it needs to look like a regular bicycle, not scooter, or moped or something that can easily get ticketed.

 

[deffx]

As i see your interested in a dual suspension on/off road frame.

Then i believe if someone just produced the front triangles for a common bike, for example 1990- 2000 specialised big hit or kona stinky.

There would defiantly be a market for it. After all it really is just a battery/controller storage solution we are looking for in a nice strong bike

It would be a bit like a kit car based on a common volkswagon beetle situation.

You source a bike and transfer everything over to the new triangle

 

[spinningmagnets]

deffx, that's a great idea. I was very impressed by Farfles rear swingarm for the Genesis bicycle. It provided clamping drop-outs and a longer wheelbase. I haven't seen it used in a non-hub build yet, but What appealed to me most was that it provided space just in front of the rear tire for a non-hub motor.

Of course it was a small enough project that he didn't need a kickstarter, but its a valid business strategy to make a part for an existing product...like a smart-phone case that looks like a Star Trek communicator...I got that idea a while back and found out that someone was already making them!

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=34939

 

[lbz5mc12]

Honestly what someone needs to do is come up with a bike frame that will work really well as a regular bike and an ebike. If you can achieve this, one of the closer to home manufacturers might be interested. I'm thinking a hard tail made with deeper rear dropouts to accommodate the axles from hub motors. Make the ends of the dropouts out of steel that bolt on to an aluminum or other metal/carbon fiber frame. A front suspension fork made out of steel with about 4 inches of travel. A good suspension seat post. A frame that is made to accommodate really wide tires and is built to except both disk and V-brakes. Mounting holes in the front triangle intended to install optional, sold with or separately, mounting hardware for batteries, controller, wires, side panels etc. A frame built with strong enough dropouts that they don't require torque arms. Basically a hybrid bike frame designed to be used as a regular bike or an ebike based on the riders preference.

 

[neptronix]

Making it look like a motorcycle is an excellent idea.

Only if you want people to demand that you follow the same rules as other motorcyclists. Look at the rancor that's been stirred up here and there by scooter-styled e-bikes. Ride an e-bike that resembles a motocross bike on bike paths, bike lanes, and sidewalks, and see just how quickly you'll have both car drivers and bicyclists asking the local authorities to ban your machine.

I TOTALLY agree, as i've been thinking about this a lot lately.

If you get the perfect eBike frame made, and it is cheap enough for the common dude to afford, you're going to see a lot of people riding around on it.

You don't want a thousand motorcycle looking things riding along.
It needs to look like a downhill bike or an old school 'spring hanging off the seat tube' 1990's kinda rig, just with an enclosed triangle... as much as possible.

You get a bunch of people riding this thing and you open up pandora's box. Ebike styling gets regulated or ebikes just get banned period. It's very sad that we can't optimize the man-machine perfection of the ebike without 'the man' interfering based on simple visual cross-association with motorcycles, but that's the reality of what we're dealing with.

To anyone designing these frames, please give this a thought.

 

[Chalo]

It doesn't help that a lot of early adopters want true motorcycle-like capabilities without any of the legal responsibilities of motorcyclists. But I guess we all want what we want, right?

Getting what we want can bring consequences we don't want, though.

Most reasonable people agree that bicycles are OK. E-bike users can ride into that generally accepted space by looking, moving, and behaving enough like bicyclists to pass. To the degree they differentiate themselves, they have to work out their own terms with the public.

 

[neptronix]

It doesn't help that a lot of early adopters want true motorcycle-like capabilities without any of the legal responsibilities of motorcyclists. But I guess we all want what we want, right?

Right. I'm noticing that more and more people coming on here are looking for higher speeds.

Proper high speed eBbikes have been out of the reach of many because they cost half the price of a new car. But just wait until every young whippersnapper and guy who lost his license because of a DUI has one. We're doomed.

If i was designing a ebike, i'd design it for comfort. Wimpy rear and front suspension is what i'd go for - like 100-120mm front suspension, plus a wimpy rear spring that just does the job of dampening out things, but not allowing you to take massive drops or anything like that. I'd design it for 135mm rear dropouts so that some fabrication would be needed to get something like a cromotor running on it.

It would have no visible motorcycle characteristics whatsoever, except maybe dual rear springs, just to keep the suspension design as simple as humanly possible ( thereby avoiding the 4 link madness of a typical dual suspension mountain bike )

I would not style it in a racy fashion and would give it a stupid name that would make it seem less potent than it is, like for example, 'magic pie' :lol: