Ebikekit Rear Hub ( Nine Continent type)

[methods]

Does anyone use the switched brake levers for motor cutoff ? Important to not ?

I used to use the ebrakes. For a nOOb, in a panic situation, it could be argued that they could save someone if they were so panicked that they were applying full gas and full brake at the same time. On my first ebike I actually did this once I was squeezing a handful of front brake but I had not completely let of the gas (bad habit I learned from having an ebrake). I was riding through a DIY carwash parking lot and my rear wheel starting spinning and came out from under me (5305 @88V 100A). Twas a little embarrassing.

I then read a good argument on the ebike.ca website.
It basically says: "Keep it simple stupid"
The first part of the argument is - the less the better. Less chance for something to go wrong, less clutter, fewer failure points.
The second part of the argument is that no other vehicle (thing car or motorcycle) has this feature, so why should a bike?

My personal belief is that it is a cool feature, but it leads to bad habits.
I actually dont even run my regen through the brake handle anymore. If I run regen (which I usually dont due to fork wear) I run it with a button.
Regen (serious regen, not "toy" or "kid" regen) comes on too strong and can throw you off your line at high speeds.
I would find myself cornering at 30mph, reaching for the brake to just shift my weight a little, and BAM... that 2KW regen would hit!
(I would agree that this is just a poorly implemented regen algorithm, but the argument still holds)

So I use manual brakes on the handles and regen on a button.
No ebrakes.

Oh yea... Also, if you run hydraulic brakes, you cant use the ebrake without some custom mods.

-methods

 

[bikeelectric]

Those are good considerations. I suppose if I ever get this running I could experiment and try it both ways. But for now the switch is already off !

Does anyone use the switched brake levers for motor cutoff ? Important to not ?

I used to use the ebrakes. For a nOOb, in a panic situation, it could be argued that they could save someone if they were so panicked that they were applying full gas and full brake at the same time. On my first ebike I actually did this once I was squeezing a handful of front brake but I had not completely let of the gas (bad habit I learned from having an ebrake). I was riding through a DIY carwash parking lot and my rear wheel starting spinning and came out from under me (5305 @88V 100A). Twas a little embarrassing.

I then read a good argument on the ebike.ca website.
It basically says: "Keep it simple stupid"
The first part of the argument is - the less the better. Less chance for something to go wrong, less clutter, fewer failure points.
The second part of the argument is that no other vehicle (thing car or motorcycle) has this feature, so why should a bike?

My personal belief is that it is a cool feature, but it leads to bad habits.
I actually dont even run my regen through the brake handle anymore. If I run regen (which I usually dont due to fork wear) I run it with a button.
Regen (serious regen, not "toy" or "kid" regen) comes on too strong and can throw you off your line at high speeds.
I would find myself cornering at 30mph, reaching for the brake to just shift my weight a little, and BAM... that 2KW regen would hit!
(I would agree that this is just a poorly implemented regen algorithm, but the argument still holds)

So I use manual brakes on the handles and regen on a button.
No ebrakes.

Oh yea... Also, if you run hydraulic brakes, you cant use the ebrake without some custom mods.

-methods

 

[wasp]

i want to swap the caps to 100v ones on the stock controller has anyone done this yet?
are the fets 75v? i will add to shunt while in there also
am i missing any other upgrades besides going the 4110 fet route?

 

[methods]

Make sure that you use low ESR caps or it could be a de-mod.
If you search it has been discussed.

-methods

 

[caleb7777]

I am building a new bike up from the ground and i see there is a lot of different spoking methods here.

Which should I go with? Or I should ask, which one is proven to be strong and cause least problems?

I will be dishing it over because I want a 7 speed sprocket

 

[dnmun]

wasp, i have figured out how to fit the 100V1000uF caps in the controller. i even bot a bunch on ebay for cheap and can sell you 4 for $1.20 plus postage.

i have run the stock 36V controller up to 90.6 V where it cutout. but it ran fine at 80V all free wheel.

to run it at 72V under load, i would recommend replacing the 2 input caps from 63V470uF to 100V1000uF but in order to do that inside the controller you have to move the power resistors to the underside of the pcb, and even then it is a tight fit since the caps are 18mm diameter by 40mm long. in this picture the space from the voltage regulator cap over to the end plate is about 36mm, 2 caps wide, and the space from the outside wall of the case to the bootstrap cap is 40mm.

i am gonna use 12G solid wire to replace the stranded power lead and solder the legs of the caps right onto the power leads as they run across the case on that side. i will get to it eventually but kinda thought through it already.

also you should add another 330 ohm 2 watt power resistor inline for 72V, >EDIT< thinking some more about this. if the controller current is 65mA, and need at least 14V input to the LM317T voltage regulator when the pack is at LVC of 48V or 2V/cell then the resistor has to be 34V/.065A=523 ohm. at 87V the voltage drop would be (using 550R total) 550x.065=35.8V and the input to the voltage regulator is 51.2V. so i am thinking that a total of 550 ohm may be best. that gives 40V across the regulator so it is barely in spec, and the regulator sees 12.25V at the 48V LVC. so just barely works. that is what i will try. 550 ohm total. add 220 ohm 1W resistor in series. both underneath. then modify the LVC on the controller up to 50V which takes a 2k ohm resistor from the LVC bridge to the shunt. maybe use a cermet trim pot, i have some 5k trim pots, need to find space under the shunt on the underside of the pcb since that is the only place to glue it and reach it from the end by taking off the end plate.

i also think it is possible to fit 2 100V1000uF caps on the other end of the case for the S/D busses, where it is needed most.

i actually think the 75V75A FETs will work at the 88V of a hot lifepo4 pack, not sure how long before they get too hot, use thermal joint compound every time you put it back together to increase heat flow from heatsink to case. if they pop then you could replace with the 4110s later.

the price underlined is for the nichicon 100V1000uF caps, $10.41 from digikey before shipping for 10.

i also soldered up the shunt and modified the LVC on mine to 37V for my 48V nicad pack.

but that will put out 2.6kW with the stock FETs i think.

 

[bikeelectric]

I wired up the ebike kit / nine continent motor and controller just awhile ago. I decided to just use most of the plug in connectors that came with the motor and controller for now. I removed the computer power supply looking socket on the wires that go to the battery and replaced them with Anderson power poles. Since I am using the Headway group buy 48 volt battery that had no connectors on it, I also used powerpoles for that - the two negative wires went to negative battery and the one red wire went to positive battery. I am assuming that the red wire on the supplied battery cable is positive and the blue wire negative.

Just for safety I put a blade fuse connector on the positive wire from the battery pack. When I plugged the battery pack connector to the controller it had quite a big spark . I quickly unplugged it - it hadn't blown the 30 amp fuse I had in the blade fuse holder but I didn't leave it connected long. I tried it again with the fuse out but as soon as I made contact with the fuse to the fuse socket it sparked.

My next step will be to maybe try some lead acid batteries on it just to rule out something wrong with the Headway BMS. Unless anyone has a better idea or thoughts ?

Attached is a photo - it looks pretty messy - pulled it out of the pannier to show wiring better. This isn't my idea of a permanent installation !
( the second black wire coming from the red battery wire is a glass fuse holder that is for the battery charger positive - no I didn't connect a ground and positive together ! )
Larry

I finally got working on my bike. I decided to use my worn out Marin Bobcat Trail bike so had to replace the chain, sprockets, etc.


Larry

 

[dnmun]

the spark is because of the large inrush current that charges up the input caps. that is normal, some have set up a bypass switch which charges up the caps through a resistor so that when you plug in the connectors for the main current path, there is no spark. there are several threads about it.

 

[methods]

Agreed about the inrush.

I think he may have other problems though as the inrush should not blow a 30A fuse IMHO.

To test: Place a 300 ohm resistor in-line with the power next time you hook it up.
If it gets hotter and hotter and hotter you have got yourself a serious problem.
If it does not get hot, short across the resistor and the controller should power up.

If you dont have a Multimeter of some sort, stop what you are doing and go buy one.
An inaccurate DMM can be had for $15 at discount electronics stores.
Will allow you to measure Voltage and Resistance at least.

-methods

 

[dnmun]

i bot a $4 voltmeter at harbor freight the other day. it is as accurate as the $3 special i got before. the most important part of your tool kit.

putting the resistor in between the contacts first allows the capacitors to charge up more slowly so the current is low and it doesn't spark, and then you can plug in the anderson after a short period to let it charge up, like a second or so.

 

[bikeelectric]

I thought it might be something to do with an inrush current. It never blew the fuse but I hadn't relly seated it in long enough to find out. I do have meters.
I just plugged the fuse in , ignored the snap and spark, and all is well. Guess I need a decent switch now.
Took it out for a short ride and it works ! After years of reading about ebikes I have finally joined the ranks.
Things I know that I need are - better battery mounting - maybe on the rack. A sturdy double kickstand would be nice.
And I want a cycle analyst of course. Do I have to do some modification to this controller to make it work with a cycle analyst ? Or would I be better off getting a different controller from ebikes.ca that is already set up for the cycle analyst ? I have a 48 v 10 AH Headway pack from the first group buy and just ordered another 48v set. I guess when I get the new cells this would give me the option of reconfiguring the pack and for a higher voltage and more speed.

There was talk about only taking the Headway pack down 1/3 for a few times initially to break it in. So I will not go too far in case this is true.

Thanks for the help getting me going.

I tried to get a mph reading holding a gps and looked like about 23 mph or so - kind of hard to hold the gps and steering at the same time.

the spark is because of the large inrush current that charges up the input caps. that is normal, some have set up a bypass switch which charges up the caps through a resistor so that when you plug in the connectors for the main current path, there is no spark. there are several threads about it.

 

[bikeelectric]

The insides of the controller - I opened it up because I might try tapping it for direct connection Cycle Analyst.
I have been running it at 48 volts no problems.

 

[bikeelectric]

I bought a Topeak pack and put my Headway battery pack in there. Also mounted the controller under the seat for better air cooling. Now I can disconnect one connector from the battery and slide the Topeak pack off the rack. This pack also has fold down panniers for carrying more stuff.

 

[Icewrench]

After 500 plus quality miles of e biking pleasure, my cheapo used rear tire wore out. Any way pulled the wheel and wiring and the phase wire bullet connectors are showing signs of heat...No major melting or shorting yet ... All 3 connectors were slightly stuck together. Time to upgrade phase wire connections with some andersons.

 

[mwkeefer]

I got the 2806 hub, and it has a similar label, but mine is showing 10x6, which I think is even faster. I'm doing 25+ at 38v with mine in 26 inch, so I think it's faster than 9x7. I read another thread that mentioned there is also 6x10 and 8x8 used in Europe, so it appears that there are other variations available.

hey Vin, it's the 9 x 7 rater than the 7 x 9.. i'm pretty sure :wink: fast... fast... yeah!!!

see the zooming of that pic i did:

stevero2001 - I know this is a way bit late but I just got one of these 10x6 windings and it's in a 20" - your numbers are a bit troublesome to me because if they are correct then 38v @ 25mph on 26" = kV loaded of just 8.5020 RPM per volt, the 9x7 wind ( the normal ebikekit offering ) has a loaded kV of 10.10 @ 48v.

What is the voltage drop at your max speed and how many amps?

-Mike

 

[bikeelectric]

A couple of my spokes broke at about 1700 miles - they have been clicking for a long time. Originally when I first got the kit - I had the local bike shop just dish the wheel - they loosened all on one side and tightened the other side. Seemed like the loosened ones were always too loose.

I just replaced all the spokes , but I turned them the other way on the hub so the bend is opposite where they originally were. The heads seem to seat in better this way too. So when I get it on the road I will see how it rides. It isn't quite centered right - kind of like the original way it came, but I am going to leave it this way and see how it rides. The main problem is likely to be adjusting my brakes so one pad doesn't rub. But considering that for the last couple weeks I have taken the rear brake pads off after the spokes broke and relied totally on the rear regen braking - I think it will be just fine the way it is even if I have to leave the brakes a bit loose.

 

[mwkeefer]

bike - sounds like you would be okay using your feet in the rear tire to brake (I've done this a few times in emergencies) BMX style...
-Mike

 

[NickW]

Seemed like the loosened ones were always too loose

Yeah, that's because the flanges are too close together, and symmetrical. I have a 9C rear motor, and have had similar problems. I haven't broken any spokes, but when I carry heavy loads, they unload and work their way loose and I get a lot of creaking.

An asymmetric rim would help, but unfortunately, they seem to have gone out of style again.

I'm rebuilding my wheel, hopefully this weekend. I bought a fairly stout rim, I'm just going to lace it up with all of the spokes out of the same side of the flange, possibly switch to a 6 speed freewheel instead of the 7 I have now, and tighten the drive side spokes ridiculously tight, and loctite(blue) the non-drive spokes, so they'll hopefully stop unscrewing.

I think it'll work alright. Really, there's not much more you can do. Hopefully at some point they'll make a motor with wide asymmetrically spaced flanges. That'll build a much stronger more reliable wheel.

 

[E-GE]

I've received my 9C 2806 26" last week from ebikes.ca. Looks like I have the 10x6 hub. I'm having problems centering the wheel like almost everyone with a 9C hub. You can see more details on my build here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19171

 

[bikeelectric]

I thought I read on ES here somewhere that EBike.ca had new 9C type motors that were centered okay . You might check back with them. I think it had to do with a different side cover.

I found where I read that -
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19138

I've received my 9C 2806 26" last week from ebikes.ca. Looks like I have the 10x6 hub. I'm having problems centering the wheel like almost everyone with a 9C hub. You can see more details on my build here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19171

 

[E-GE]

I thought I read on ES here somewhere that EBike.ca had new 9C type motors that were centered okay . You might check back with them. I think it had to do with a different side cover.

I found where I read that -
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19138

I think I have the new version of the 9C 2806 hub since the side covers are totally flat. I guess the wheel needs to be proper trued before I can hit the road!

 

[bikeelectric]

Just thought I would do an update since I started using my ebike kit nine continent motor and 48 volt headway batteries in 2009. According to my Cycle Analyst this has about 6000 miles on it and the battery pack has cycled 546 times with a total of 3300 AH. There are probably more miles and AH since I didn't get the Cycle Analyst until a couple months after I started riding.

So going into the 4th riding season ( don't ride it here in the Wisconsin winters ) I would say I still have about 75 percent of the original battery range. My riding habits have been mostly commuting 5 miles to work and then back home for 10 miles a day , though I usually take longer rides home after work so put an extra 7 miles or so on daily. I would say the norm is full throttle, fast starts, and not much peddling. Top speed is about 27 mph with me being about 175 pounds and the range going full bore no peddling was originally at least 18 miles on the 10 AH pack , now I would say it is down to 13 to 15 miles. If I go slower and peddle some I can go 24 plus miles on the pack. I try to ride on the streets and if I do go on a bike path I go slower so I am not a jerk and ruin it for all other ebikers of the future. No one usually notices that I have an ebike. On the streets it is fun to go flying past the lycra crowd. Though there have been two riders who have passed me - one was racing me and no matter how hard I peddled along with full throttle I couldn't keep up to him. These guys were fast ! One of them rode along side me once and looked over and said " What kind of cheating machine do you have there ? " and then he took off and left me in the dust - ha ha.

The only maintenance I have done is to replace spokes once since they started breaking due to the dishing I had done at a bike shop - they had pretty much loosened one side and tightened the other and the spokes always creaked and started breaking after a few thousand miles. I respoked and the wheel went back to the one side - remember this was a special buy kit because of this problem and I knew I bought it that way. The wheel was much stronger in the slightly offset original style and I just loosened the rear brakes and rely mostly on regen braking for the rear. Not ideal but works.

Other than that never have had any problems with the controller - found out fast that I needed to mount it outside the battery bag in the airstream to keep cool. Also the batteries have exceeded my expectations in their longevity . I have had the pack bouncing around in the back pack and had a few loose connector screws over the years but that is about it.

I am considering getting some front suspension , the steel front fork is very solid but I think sometimes it would be nice for those potholes and rough roads to have some suspension !

So all in all this was a great investment, a lot of fun, and still gets me around almost just as well as new 4 years later.