Ebikeling "wide" 1500w kit

[SamRich]

Hi,
So I ordered one of these last week:

http://www.hallomotor.com/2015-new-style-black-48v-1500w-brushless-gearless-thread-in-hub-motor-for-rear-wheel-ebike.html

looks similar to the ones posted in the thread above.
I received it yesterday - 170$ shipped Fedex to CONUS!

It's definitely beefier than my 9C clone, although the phase wire look a bit thin for 1500W so I might rewire it in the future.
The hub width is about 40 mm so consistent with a 35 mm magnet width.
The OLD is 135 with enough room for a 30 mm freewheel (i.e., 5-6 speed).
I'll be swapping it with my 9C as soon as I get some spokes and lace it up - I'll be able to give a subjective comparison!

Cheers,

 

[diggler]

I seen those too on aliexpress.
They said 600rpm (prob a 4 turn) and didn't give an efficiency %.
The one on leave bikes claims 721rpm (so less turns, prob a 3 turn) and %90.5 efficiency. (more copper and thinner laminations)
I wonder if you can measure the voltage drop across the phase wires to get the resistance. Then from that we could figure out the efficiency.
Also maybe when you have it open if there was a way to measure the thickness of the laminations? Could you do that?

 

[SamRich]

I seen those too on aliexpress.
They said 600rpm (prob a 4 turn) and didn't give an efficiency %.
The one on leave bikes claims 721rpm (so less turns, prob a 3 turn) and %90.5 efficiency. (more copper and thinner laminations)
I wonder if you can measure the voltage drop across the phase wires to get the resistance. Then from that we could figure out the efficiency.
Also maybe when you have it open if there was a way to measure the thickness of the laminations? Could you do that?

I measured the no load speed with a 40A sine wave controller (on "high" speed) hot off the charger at 54.6 V and measured 115 Kph / 72 mph on a 26" wheel so that's about 890 RPM!

For efficiency, I do have an oscilloscope so might be able measure phase voltage. Not sure exactly how and I don't think I can easily do it under load. I'll look into it later this week.

 

[neptronix]

The one on leave bikes claims 721rpm (so less turns, prob a 3 turn) and %90.5 efficiency. (more copper and thinner laminations)
I wonder if you can measure the voltage drop across the phase wires to get the resistance. Then from that we could figure out the efficiency.
Also maybe when you have it open if there was a way to measure the thickness of the laminations? Could you do that?

They're using a graph from their 16" 1000w motor as i noted above. Efficiency seems much lower than quoted.. more like low 80%.

 

[diggler]

Managed to get the motor report for the 1500w leaf bike.
It's posted on there sight under the kit not the motor.
I posted it on this thread.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65793&p=989631#p989631
I'll link it hear as well.
http://www.leafbike.com/u_file/images/15_01_05/0a32577ead.jpg

 

[neptronix]

( I updated the other thread too )

Wow! wow! i am genuinely impressed by the leafmotor sheet. To interpolate the test results a little, i'd guess that at 2000w continuous, you'd be seeing a 250w heat loss, which could probably be sustained for a decent period of time. I would guess that this is actually a 1750w or higher continuous motor, if the spec sheet is correct. I would say that this motor is a few hundred watts continuous more powerful than a crystalyte.

On a 26" wheel, this motor should be able to handle a nice continuous 35mph with bursts of 40mph lasting maybe 1-5 miles without worries of overheating on 48v. You'll just need a controller that can dish out a shit-ton of amps at low voltage, IE a 12FET with 3077 FETs or 18FET with 3077/4110 FETs.

 

[diggler]

Or one could just go to higher voltages if there controller is more amp limited vs volt limited right?
lets say a 72v 40a controller with 100v caps.

 

[neptronix]

I wouldn't run the motor it that way. Let it it the correct speed with the correct voltage. 72v makes no sense on this motor unless you have it in something like a 20 inch wheel.

 

[diggler]

hmmm?
What about if it was a Higher turn motor?

 

[SamRich]

I seen those too on aliexpress.
They said 600rpm (prob a 4 turn) and didn't give an efficiency %.
The one on leave bikes claims 721rpm (so less turns, prob a 3 turn) and %90.5 efficiency. (more copper and thinner laminations)
I wonder if you can measure the voltage drop across the phase wires to get the resistance. Then from that we could figure out the efficiency.
Also maybe when you have it open if there was a way to measure the thickness of the laminations? Could you do that?

I measured the no load speed with a 40A sine wave controller (on "high" speed) hot off the charger at 54.6 V and measured 115 Kph / 72 mph on a 26" wheel so that's about 890 RPM!

For efficiency, I do have an oscilloscope so might be able measure phase voltage. Not sure exactly how and I don't think I can easily do it under load. I'll look into it later this week.

So I just got to test it out (a short ride around the block) and it is fast! Yeah no prob going 35-40 MPH with an 18 FET sine controller. I'll have to see how much battery I have left after my 9 mile commute tomorrow to compare with my previous winter beater 9C clone motor (and BMC) as far a efficiency.

Biggest downside for me is that this thing is heavy!...I'm used to lighter e-bikes - I guess performance comes at a price.

Managed to get the motor report for the 1500w leaf bike.
It's posted on there sight under the kit not the motor.
I posted it on this thread.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65793&p=989631#p989631
I'll link it hear as well.
http://www.leafbike.com/u_file/images/15_01_05/0a32577ead.jpg

Thanks for sharing that chart - looks like a decent motor (assuming this is the same motor I just purchased, but from the specs it does)

 

[arkmundi]

On a 26" wheel, this motor should be able to handle a nice continuous 35mph with bursts of 40mph lasting maybe 1-5 miles without worries of overheating on 48v. You'll just need a controller that can dish out a shit-ton of amps at low voltage, IE a 12FET with 3077 FETs or 18FET with 3077/4110 FETs.

Looking at their complete kit: http://www.leafbike.com/products/di...w-rear-hub-motor-bike-conversion-kit-987.html, laced, includes a 12fet controller 40amp controller for $343, so an impressive price as well!

 

[diggler]

yah if you look at my thread they will lace it to any wheel and even upgrade the phase wires to 4mm it's about an equivalent of 11awg for free. This mean that they will put a bigger axel in it so they have to use a cover from a 2000w motor so they said the width will be wider than the 135mm rear and 120mm front. This is nbd for me cause I'm looking at these for a fat bike.
The only thing that makes this not so pretty much of a good deal is the shipping. Just for the motors to me is $280

Especially now that I see the halo motors are $114 just motor and 7 speed free wheel. But wait just did an estimation for shipping and there $102 to ship one motor to me

Now I'm leaning back to leaf. I'm not totally sure the leaf and halo are the same motor. It cost extra money and is harder to manufacture the magnet laminations thinner. You'd think halo would advertise this. Also leaf states how they have more copper fill.

Maybe I'll see if I can get some more info outta halo. Otherwise I'm looking forward to seeing SamRich's info.

 

[SamRich]

yah if you look at my thread they will lace it to any wheel and even upgrade the phase wires to 4mm it's about an equivalent of 11awg for free. This mean that they will put a bigger axel in it so they have to use a cover from a 2000w motor so they said the width will be wider than the 135mm rear and 120mm front. This is nbd for me cause I'm looking at these for a fat bike.
The only thing that makes this not so pretty much of a good deal is the shipping. Just for the motors to me is $280

Especially now that I see the halo motors are $114 just motor and 7 speed free wheel. But wait just did an estimation for shipping and there $102 to ship one motor to me

Now I'm leaning back to leaf. I'm not totally sure the leaf and halo are the same motor. It cost extra money and is harder to manufacture the magnet laminations thinner. You'd think halo would advertise this. Also leaf states how they have more copper fill.

Maybe I'll see if I can get some more info outta halo. Otherwise I'm looking forward to seeing SamRich's info.

Check it out here from hallomotor on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-New-Style-Black-48V-1500W-Brushless-Gearless-Hub-Motor-for-Rear-Wheel-Ebike-/171560528671?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27f1cdeb1f

I was able to negotiate a bit too

 

[neptronix]

I have seen dyno graphs for other similar 35mm motors. One thing of note is that they were a little lighter. But they peaked out at a pathetic 80% efficiency, which is terrible for a direct drive motor. Even an older 9 continent 28mm will peak at 82-83% efficiency.

An extra 10% efficiency means that you can push the same amount of stator much harder - there is half the waste heat! I would buy the more expensive motor wheel and add a stronger controller. 40 amps is barely pushing the leaf motor.

 

[diggler]

I have seen dyno graphs for other similar 35mm motors. One thing of note is that they were a little lighter. But they peaked out at a pathetic 80% efficiency, which is terrible for a direct drive motor. Even an older 9 continent 28mm will peak at 82-83% efficiency.

Right

An extra 10% efficiency means that you can push the same amount of stator much harder - there is half the waste heat! I would buy the more expensive motor wheel and add a stronger controller. 40 amps is barely pushing the leaf motor.

I agree efficiency is the golden ticket. You can pump more amps without overheating, you can get more range if your not pushing them hard, and there easier on controllers. Right?

On a 26" wheel, this motor should be able to handle a nice continuous 35mph with bursts of 40mph lasting maybe 1-5 miles without worries of overheating on 48v. You'll just need a controller that can dish out a shit-ton of amps at low voltage, IE a 12FET with 3077 FETs or 18FET with 3077/4110 FETs.

me

Or one could just go to higher voltages if there controller is more amp limited vs volt limited right?
lets say a 72v 40a controller with 100v caps.

I wouldn't run the motor it that way. Let it it the correct speed with the correct voltage. 72v makes no sense on this motor unless you have it in something like a 20 inch wheel.

Okay I get that I think, because the motor would have very little leverage over the wheel until it got to higher rpms. (which would be at very high speeds!) In the meantime it would be burning up in the lower rpm range and even going up a slight hill. (even with a three speed switch right?)

But running this motor at a "shit-ton of amps at low voltage, IE a 12FET with 3077 FETs or 18FET with 3077/4110 FETs" (so like 65 or more battery amps and what 120 phase amps or more, right?) would be the same as running a higher turn version at a higher voltage but not a shit ton of amps maybe like 40 amps with a temp sensor to be safe. Right? (I understand it is easier to burn up a high turn motor because they can't take as many amps)

Assuming this motor we're talking about above is a low turn motor. John thinks it is, or might be a 3 turn. (which I agree would be the money shot with a 20" tire and high amp! )

So if one went with a higher turn motor, then one wouldn't have to spend $200 on a high amp controller, one could spend $60-$70 (or less) on a cheep china controller use it at 72 or even 96v to get the same results. Right?
me

hmmm?
What about if it was a Higher turn motor?

????
Sorry for all the questions. And I'm not trying to be a smart ars, but this is my understanding so far. And with no real world experience in these matters YET, I'm definitely okay with being told that I'm wrong.
So please do. Set me strait if I need it.
Thanks.

 

[arkmundi]

Motors are going to be rated in Watts, have a maximum that they can handle without doing damage. Most of the manufacturers will rate them with a lower margin of safety. Meaning you can usually get away with running them hotter. Get a controller that will push the amps the motor can handle. My MAC 10T is rated 500-1000 watts, but can handle up to 1500 watts. So a 30 amp controller and a 48 volt battery are standard issue for the motor. But I felt I could get away with more, so a 40 amp controller and a 54 volt battery and at peak I'm probably running close to 2000 watts. What is going to melt first? Probably the halls or phase wires. The copper wind? Very unlikely. A higher turn count is accomplished with thinner wire, but the amount of copper is always going to run about the same in a motor. I'd have to be running the MAC in excess of 5000 watts before that copper would approach a melt point.

 

[neptronix]

Well, the continuous rating is based on just that... continuous power at say, 70-75 degrees room temperature for up to 24 hours if not more. It's a pretty conservative rating.

We run our motors for maybe an hour.. plus they get some air cooling effect, and we don't always run our maximum power continuously, so there's some fluff in the ratings, for sure. I found out that my MAC was a 1000w rated motor in reality by riding it for 2 hours. It overheated doing 30mph continuous. But for short ( 5-10 mile ) rides, i could beat on it at 1600w continuous for decent periods of time.

What really determines continuous power more than anything is heat shedding ability. I'm sure that a motor of this size could shed 200w continous fairly easily, so i am uprating it.

Diggler; think in terms of amps and not watts. If you can find a lower speed winding version of this motor and want to run higher volts to save a little money on the controller, go for it. You may see a little bit more efficiency as well.

I just like high amps, low volts because i am an RC Lipo guy and like having low cell counts so that my balancing and charging is easy to find equipment for.

 

[arkmundi]

Point taken about the MAC and heat shedding. Maybe I'm OK running at 2000 watts because its winter. Come summer, maybe I'm not so lucky. Waiting for the CycleAnalyst version 3.0 to have all the kinks worked out and on the shelves for purchase. When I got my MAC from EM3ev last November, he only had the Version 2.3. Looking to hook that up and have that motor thermister recognized & shown, so I know what's cooking. Its the upgraded MAC, so it has that ability.

 

[neptronix]

Smart move.
Yeah, i dumped 2300-2600w mine for a while...... during the winter, of course! just beat the piss out of the thing..

I had an old thicker-lamination version from 2011 though, so i'm not very sure how the new ones perform by comparison.

I'm interested in these motors if you can get a lower speed winding.. heavy as sin, and will do what i tasked my MAC motor to do with grace, at probably 20% higher efficiency, lol..

 

[SamRich]

Update: I rode twice to work with new "1500W" 35 mm hub and my final voltage was consistently lower than with my 2805. (I used to measure 48.6-7V now 47.8-9V on 13S)
It might not mean a lower efficiency per se since I might have been drawing more power but on the other hand it was the same controller running more or less under WOT all the way to work...
Not a huge difference, but that would signify maybe signify an 80% efficiency not 90% - at least for the hub sold by hallomotor.... thoughts?

 

[SamRich]

Update: I rode twice to work with new "1500W" 35 mm hub and my final voltage was consistently lower than with my 2805. (I used to measure 48.6-7V now 47.8-9V on 13S)
It might not mean a lower efficiency per se since I might have been drawing more power but on the other hand it was the same controller running more or less under WOT all the way to work...
Not a huge difference, but that would signify maybe signify an 80% efficiency not 90% - at least for the hub sold by hallomotor.... thoughts?

BTW it's still a much torquier and faster hub than the 2805 so no regrets there. For the price I don't think I can't beat it.

 

[neptronix]

That doesn't have much to do with the motor efficiency. You can't calculate efficiency based on how much power you used over a ride. You probably went at a different speed. So, who knows.

Heat on the hub motor when riding the same distance, using the same course, and with the same amperage will tell you more than amp hours used.

Anyway, who knows if the hallomotor is the same as the leaf motor. Only the leaf motor seems to have a high efficiency claim in the ads.

Update: I rode twice to work with new "1500W" 35 mm hub and my final voltage was consistently lower than with my 2805. (I used to measure 48.6-7V now 47.8-9V on 13S)
It might not mean a lower efficiency per se since I might have been drawing more power but on the other hand it was the same controller running more or less under WOT all the way to work...
Not a huge difference, but that would signify maybe signify an 80% efficiency not 90% - at least for the hub sold by hallomotor.... thoughts?

 

[diggler]

Diggler; think in terms of amps and not watts. If you can find a lower speed winding version of this motor and want to run higher volts to save a little money on the controller, go for it. You may see a little bit more efficiency as well.

I'm interested in these motors if you can get a lower speed winding.. heavy as sin, and will do what i tasked my MAC motor to do with grace, at probably 20% higher efficiency, lol..

They will lace it to any rim and give you any turn count you want. :wink: On top of that they will upgrade the axle and phase wires and include a temp sensor for free! 8)
The only down side to the upgrades are that it will make the motor wider,(not a down side on a fat bike) because they have to use a 2000w cover. It's all in my thread.http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65793
me:

Do you also make a front one?

I plan on using for a fat tire bike 26"x4".
Can you mount on 26"x4" rim 12g spokes?

Do you have different windings available?

What is the thickness of the magnet laminations?

them:

Yes,we have 1500w front.The price is the same to rear.

Yes,we have 26" * 4"rim 12g spokes.

* Yes,we can make different windings.

Magnat: 46pcs 35mm height.

me:

Can you make with a temp sensor?

Can you give me a list of winds?

them:

Yes,we can make a temp sensor inside motor.

* about max 600rpm,500rpm,400rpm,300rpm,200rpm..We also can make it.

John thinks, as do I, that the 731rpm is 3 turn. So that would make 600rpm 4 turn, 500 5 or 6 turn, 400rpm 6 or 8 turn? IDK I'm just guessing. Any thought's?

This was there recommendation for me:
me:

Which one do you recommend for 29" OD tire?

them:

500rpm motor.About 55kmh on flat road.

It go's on and on but I don't want to fill this thread up too much. though it's easier to read it this way

O and can anyone help me with my controller on my thread?

 

[1KW]

Nice motor for the price. Step up from 9c but still a little away from the new mxus motors. So in a 26" wheel 18s would be overkill?

 

[cwah]

You need a good sine wave controller