Ebikes are for rebels....

[Wolfeman]

Thinking about ebikes last night, as I often do these days. I was browsing ES threads and reading all about ebike laws and legal definitions. Some places, New York in particular have some pretty draconian laws. Then it struck me, ebikes are a threat to the status quo. Bear with me here. Driving IC cars we pay all the "taxes" we're supposed to; sales tax on the car, registration, insurance, gas and it's associated taxes, tires, etc. Keeping an IC vehicle road worthy eats up a LOT of money. It also supports the government through taxation, the oil industry, and every private company that sells anything related to vehicles. In the U.S., private vehicles are lifestyle accessories. You are what you drive.

I for one feel like rebelling. I ride an ebike that is not registered or insured. It runs on electricity from solar panels, and I ride it courteously and politely wherever the hell I want. My personal transportation is not taxed.... Therein lies the threat to Big Business/Government/whatever you want to call it. As guerilla ebikers (overpowered), we have found a loophole in the system. Yay us!

OK, rant done.... 8)

 

[flat tire]

I was about to say that they're not a threat to the status quo because nobody wants them, but in a place like NYC demand is probably high enough for that to be true.

 

[Wolfeman]

I was about to say that they're not a threat to the status quo because nobody wants them, but in a place like NYC demand is probably high enough for that to be true.

I have to think that it's only a matter of time. Then again, this is 'Murica....

 

[spiros]

I ride my ebike as frequently is possible and I'm doing my war against the system I know that it is like trying to extinguish a fire by pissing but I drink a lot of beer man!!!!
FTS

 

[Chalo]

Best to rebel legally if you can, otherwise you have only yourself to blame when things go wrong. I understand that PAS bikes are legal in New York state? If so, that seems like the way to go.

 

[spiros]

you're right.
anyway I don't have pas but I have place a cut off magnet switch that will turn off the system if I remove the hidden magnet.
It will be better a gas legalizer but I do not have enough time to do it but I will try to find some time in future...
I always push on pedals as I want to make exersise with my bike...

 

[flat tire]

There are better ways to guide people than play the same broken record thread after thread about following the law. I advocate riding illegally as hell* to everyone because the laws for this in literally every part of the world are stupid. In this case following the law is WRONG so following the law is not what is important. You have no ethical obligation to follow stupid laws...however, a thinking man DOES have various ethical obligations to follow when ebiking. *What's important are the following:

--PAY ATTENTION, because everything and everyone wants to kill you
--Always leave plenty of time to react, give yourself an out, and don't be afraid to actively manage your position in traffic
--Learn how to control the bike, and always practice
--BE POLITE to everyone else on the road but don't be excessively polite (this causes delays and awkward pauses where neither party takes initiative). This solves 99.9% of all on-road problems.
--Whether you wear protective gear, have health insurance, or not, make sure you know and BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF about what can happen if you crash your ebike (bad things, usually). Many people don't know or aren't honest with themselves until it's too late, and crashes can always happen unexpectedly. Skills, vigilance, preflight, and not being stupid prevent 95% of all crashes.
--Have some way to verify the ebike is safe to use every time you ride
--Don't be stupid

Ok that's a lot of stuff and we're barely scratching the surface. Thread derail over?

 

[Sunder]

In this case following the law is WRONG so following the law is not what is important. You have no ethical obligation to follow stupid laws

You know, tribal leaders in rural Pakistan said pretty much exactly the same thing, when laws prohibiting honour killings were imposed on them.

Good to see your maturity of thinking is at the same level.

 

[Dauntless]

In this case following the law is WRONG so following the law is not what is important. You have no ethical obligation to follow stupid laws

You know, tribal leaders in rural Pakistan said pretty much exactly the same thing, when laws prohibiting honour killings were imposed on them.

Good to see your maturity of thinking is at the same level.

Oh fabulous response, but the revelation that EVERYONE is trying to kill you didn't change your mind?

So the state of California just voted itself lots of new spendies by raising our gas tax AGAIN. Mayor Garcetti spoke of redirecting the money to other uses in the same radio interview where he promised to spend it all on the intended road repairs. Jerry and Eric will be FURIOUS if people start riding electric bikes just to get out of paying it. They might even try to kill us.

 

[Sunder]

Oh fabulous response, but the revelation that EVERYONE is trying to kill you didn't change your mind?

So the state of California just voted itself lots of new spendies by raising our gas tax AGAIN. Mayor Garcetti spoke of redirecting the money to other uses in the same radio interview where he promised to spend it all on the intended road repairs. Jerry and Eric will be FURIOUS if people start riding electric bikes just to get out of paying it. They might even try to kill us.

Everyone's trying to kill me? I don't get it... Are you talking about cars not caring about whether they hit us or not? My government has built a lot of bike paths and shared paths, and have been slowly changing laws to allow push bikes and legal electric bikes to ride on foot paths. If that's what you're referring to, everyone is trying to keep us safe. Very few are TRYING to kill me, though some are probably a little careless.

Anyway, that's not the point. My point is that law is a social compact. If you want to use infrastructure that society paid for (and yes, that includes you), you need to abide by those rules. If you want to use the roads, build and register a motorcycle. If you want to use the footpath, build a comply eBike. Wanting to build a motorcycle and ride it on a footpath is NOT ignoring stupid laws - it's as selfish as me buying a Harley Davidson and wanting to ride it on the footpath. What's the difference? 50kg and a few kilometers per hour? ('Hey, I'll be careful!" is the common refrain)

The mentality of "ignore stupid laws" is really from developing countries. Those in cities - the more educated and civic minded people, understand the value of social cohesion. The more rural and frontier people don't see the value, and see it as an infringement on their freedoms.

Flat Tire is no St. Augustine or MLK fighting unjust law. There's nothing unjust about ebike laws - just inconvenient ones. All he wants is to put others in danger, by trying to justify to himself "I'll be careful". I could be careful carrying around a loaded shotgun as well. Not many people would say stopping that's a stupid law. (Okay, maybe some Texans).

 

[flat tire]

If you want to use infrastructure that society paid for (and yes, that includes you), you need to abide by those rules.

I quite disagree. If I'm not harming anyone, or causing problems or even creating any appreciable wear on that infrastructure--if I was, maybe an argument against my use could be made, but I'm not...--why should I follow arbitrary rules that are obviously unreasonable?

It is THE LAW that you must not go faster than the speed limit. Tell me, please, that it's sooo wrong to exceed it, even by 1 kph or mph.

In parts of Saudi Arabia it is THE LAW that women can't drive. Do they "need" to abide by that rule?

What about drug laws? You may not use or approve of the use of illegal drugs, but it is tough to agree with some countries' STATUTORY (by law) punishments which include execution for simple possession.

In North Korea, they have a lot of laws...do you think it's right that someone and their entire family get executed after after a couple escape attempts?

It also used to be the law that you could own slaves, right here...was that "OK" because the law allowed it, or were we backwards and hateful people?

Anyway, this is a simple case of riding fast bicycles on roads that are begging to host them. It's not rocket science in any sense, and it shouldn't be ethically troubling to break a dumb law that's not even considered very serious (in my neck of the woods, anyway).

As far as everyone trying to kill you, that should be self explanatory. If not, people on your roads are quite polite.

 

[Sunder]

I quite disagree. If I'm not harming anyone, or causing problems or even creating any appreciable wear on that infrastructure--if I was, maybe an argument against my use could be made, but I'm not...--why should I follow arbitrary rules that are obviously unreasonable?

Correction - rules that YOU find unreasonable.

It is THE LAW that you must not go faster than the speed limit. Tell me, please, that it's sooo wrong to exceed it, even by 1 kph or mph.

It is wrong. But the punishment is commensurate with the crime, so it's a reasonable law and should be obeyed. Sure people make mistakes, people will occasionally go a little over, and that is by and large not a big problem. But if a serial speeder finds himself with several thousand in fines and a 1 year suspension of his licence? Will I say the law is stupid, and advocate not enforcing it? Hell no. I want to drive on safe roads.

In parts of Saudi Arabia it is THE LAW that women can't drive. Do they "need" to abide by that rule?

That would appear to us to be an unjust law - So I would advocate changing it, but until it is, respecting it.

What about drug laws? You may not use or approve of the use of illegal drugs, but it is tough to agree with some countries' STATUTORY (by law) punishments which include execution for simple possession.

You could argue that since the punishment is disproportionate. But I can't find a single country where the penalty for personal use is death*... So I'm treating this as a hypothetical. If such a country did exist, I would advocate to change it to be more lenient, but you'd have to have a death wish to advocate ignoring that law...

*Top 20 harshest countries on crime - You will note every single one only imposes death for trafficking, not use

http://drugabuse.com/the-20-countries-with-the-harshest-drug-laws-in-the-world/

In North Korea, they have a lot of laws...do you think it's right that someone and their entire family get executed after after a couple escape attempts?

Not exactly a democracy in that place.

It also used to be the law that you could own slaves, right here...was that "OK" because the law allowed it, or were we backwards and hateful people?

Yeah, total strawman... Like anybody was going to not see through that one.

American and Australian law systems, for all their cultural similarities have one big difference. Both America and Australia are free. The difference is, Americans have a "Freedom to". Australians have a "Freedom from". In America, you basically have the freedom to do anything you want, unless it adversely impacts someone. In Australia, you have the freedom from certain unwanted infringements on your life, liberty and comfort. It's a very fine difference, but an important one. You ask why you should not have the freedom to ride your bike as you please. I ask why my freedom from undue risk of injury should be infringed. Interestingly, even with those mindsets, Australia and America have come to very similar laws, except that Australia's laws are somewhat stricter. (Though we are relaxing them as I said above).

 

[anoNY42]

Yeah, total strawman... Like anybody was going to not see through that one.

Lol, as if your reference to tribal leaders in Pakistan had any bearing at all on the discussion of e-bike laws.

 

[slacker]

flat tire, the laws are for everyone including you. you are not exempt or special no matter what your mommy has been telling you. get it?

 

[Sunder]

Lol, as if your reference to tribal leaders in Pakistan had any bearing at all on the discussion of e-bike laws.

I see you don't get abstract thinking. Tip: It's not about ebike laws. It's about attitudes towards laws.

 

[OMaisMau]

Difficult discussion...

Let's see, the law must be respected to guarantee public order, CHECK, even if you are educated enough to find a particular law is wrong it doesn't mean everybody else has the same discernment; if everyone disrespects the law then... yup, chaos.
Laws are not perfect, CHECK, this one is obvious and many examples have been given on this post (drug possession excessive penalties, gender discrimination, "justified murder"); in the particular case of ebikes IMHO the law is not adequate to our society and serves the interest of oil companies, government taxation, among others.
Laws are mutable, CHECK, just because a law is valid today it doesn't mean tomorrow this still holds true; I guess in Portugal we were the first country to officially abolish slavery and I guess nobody regrets it.
Mutation of laws may be a traumatic process, CHECK, easy to imagine how many people died to abolish slavery, how many illegal acts were done to put an end to that non sense, still it was necessary. As for ebikes I bet no government would be happy to know their income in traffic taxation would drop from day to night even if this means less pollution and more efficient transportation, and so forth so on for the oil companies.

IMO, not respecting the law regarding ebikes would be the necessary "traumatic process" to make things change, and if there is a sufficient critical mass of people willing to shout it out then it would be totally worth a try.

In Switzerland, where I live, as in so many other countries, legislation on ebikes/eboards/esomethings is still very rigid and inadequate. In my case I'm currently disassembling an eMTB and selling the pieces due to a lovely encounter with some police officers. I've only seen 3 other people here riding electric skateboards and this is just not sufficient weight to change anything. But for ebikes the law was changed some years ago raising the maximum allowed power (here we go: mutation, and nobody died hein?) and some companies are clever enough to declare the engines as being 500W power, like stromer ( https://www.stromerbike.com/en/ch ) and maybe I'm wrong but that hub motor is too chunky for 500W only... just speculation no facts. The ebike community here has considerable weight to make law change hopefully in a very smooth process and I hope that happens soon.

Happy rides!

 

[Newagebike]

There is no beating the system but rather you have choices, you can be a non thinker and just let the system guide you along, you can be a thinker and learn how the system works so you can live better with in it.

The simple truth is there is not enough ebikes in the system for it to see a revenue stream from it,lic,tax,insurance...ect, when there is the system will react you can be sure of that.

 

[Sunder]

IMO, not respecting the law regarding ebikes would be the necessary "traumatic process" to make things change, and if there is a sufficient critical mass of people willing to shout it out then it would be totally worth a try.

If you're referring to organised civil disobedience, then I'd agree with you. Like protests, that's a legitimate way of getting laws changed. If you just mean everyone randomly does what they want until law makers change their mind... That's still just anarchy, and is likely to get a tougher response. Look at Petrol Bikes in Australia. They were permitted under a 200W maximum law, which everyone thought was too low. They were commonly made and sold to a lot of DUIs, under aged kids, generally anyone who lost or never got their licence, decided that they'd just put any old motor on, and after 3 deaths in 2 years, law makers said "Enough is enough, now they're totally banned".

Not hard to see how Flat Tire's efforts could end up the same way for electric bikes, is it?

 

[OMaisMau]

I'm all for the organised way of protesting, anarchy is just not nice.

Keeping rules/laws regarding ebikes (traffic in general) is also very welcome and I guess nobody is against that. The key point is to make this rules adequate and fair to the present society.

Here getting a licence to ride bikes of 4kW continuous power will basically take me 8h of practical lessons because I have the B license already, after a probation period I can then ride bikes up to 11kW without additional tests. Cool isn't it? The problem comes later if we talk about legalising a DIY bike and the associated costs: insurance, getting a certified engineer to sign a paper saying your bike is fine...) ... sufficient to another topic by its own.

Bicycle with a maximum of 1000W and with motor assist up to 45km/h just need a moped plate (S category for "schnell" ebikes). How is it where you live? I'm getting off topic, sorry...

 

[RonnieBrowen2106]

Minnesota law states that electric bikes can not exceed 1000w nominal and not go faster then 20MPH. They never said voltage, how many motors, or what type. I skate a fine line. I want to install a new controller to push 1500w of power to my DD motor. My next project will be a geared motor that I will run at 1000w to 1500w on a 1000w motor. I am thinking of eventually running more voltage then 48 on my bikes. I always go faster then the electric bike speed limit, but never faster then any road speed limit. I always obey all traffic laws. And if I ever need to use a sidewalk or bike path, I always stay at lower speeds. Doing just that I have had no trouble with any police. To quote an E:S member "They have bigger fish to fry then someone on a bike looking thing."

 

[anoNY42]

Lol, as if your reference to tribal leaders in Pakistan had any bearing at all on the discussion of e-bike laws.

I see you don't get abstract thinking. Tip: It's not about ebike laws. It's about attitudes towards laws.

It's hyperbolic to try to tar flat tire with a silly reference to honor killings. You undermine your own argument (which does have some merits) by using such silly comparisons.

Edit: It's like if you argue that the Nazi's back in the early 1930's did not respect the laws about assault and battery, and thus it is always bad to disrespect other laws. Your "tribal leader" argument is really just another form of a Godwin violation in that regard.

 

[flat tire]

flat tire, the laws are for everyone including you. you are not exempt or special no matter what your mommy has been telling you. get it?

Well, mommy isn't really a fan of ebikes in general.

I still don't get it. The failure of society if everyone ignores the law has nothing to do with me thinking for myself and enjoy maximizing my utility WHILE HURTING NOBODY ELSE. If I am punished, I have myself to blame and nobody else. Right, this isn't about me...well, very few care to ride ebikes and if they follow my rules they will be causing NO problem and enjoying a HUGELY maximized personal utility by rejecting the law.

Should we ignore the below evaluation of what's really important according to our own critical thinking and blindly obey laws that don't work and aren't even accessible for change? My opinion is that would be silly. See my above post for important things to keep in mind when trying to keep everyone happy on an ebike.

Also, yes, I am an extreme and serial speeder and one of my hobbies is performance driving which I often happily practice on public roads. BUT, I exercise good judgement and a experienced knowledge of the system so I rarely get tickets and have an excellent driving record. You will not find me blasting past other drivers and endangering them. I am not out cause problems.

Basically, do this shit and frock the law. My way is much better.

--PAY ATTENTION, because everything and everyone wants to kill you
--Always leave plenty of time to react, give yourself an out, and don't be afraid to actively manage your position in traffic
--Learn how to control the bike, and always practice
--BE POLITE to everyone else on the road but don't be excessively polite (this causes delays and awkward pauses where neither party takes initiative). This solves 99.9% of all on-road problems.
--Whether you wear protective gear, have health insurance, or not, make sure you know and BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF about what can happen if you crash your ebike (bad things, usually). Many people don't know or aren't honest with themselves until it's too late, and crashes can always happen unexpectedly. Skills, vigilance, preflight, and not being stupid prevent 95% of all crashes.
--Have some way to verify the ebike is safe to use every time you ride
--Don't be stupid

 

[Chalo]

flat tire:

By doing the right thing, but illegally, while most folks are doing the wrong thing legally, you delegitimize the better way. There never has been a broad consensus that we should have unregistered, unlicensed, uninsured, uninspected motor vehicles on the road, and there never will be. Likewise, you'll not live to see a day when people think it's OK to ride a motorcycle on the sidewalk or multi-use path. Accept this. Legal e-bikes have unprecedented and exceptional privileges in this regard, and abuses by people like you will very likely cause those privileges to be rescinded.

On the other hand, a growing number of responsible operators of legal e-bikes might be able to expand e-bike privileges and exceptions from existing motor vehicle codes. I'm not holding my breath, though. I think it's much more likely that incautious people without enough moral fiber to push their own pedals are going to hurt themselves and others with their illegal motorcycles and get all special treatment for electric bicycles taken away.

 

[Sunder]

flat tire, the laws are for everyone including you. you are not exempt or special no matter what your mommy has been telling you. get it?

Well, mommy isn't really a fan of ebikes in general.

I still don't get it. The failure of society if everyone ignores the law has nothing to do with me thinking for myself and enjoy maximizing my utility WHILE HURTING NOBODY ELSE. If I am punished, I have myself to blame and nobody else.

Taking an aggression causing drug, like ice doesn't hurt anyone. Nobody is hurt by drink driving or reckless driving either, should these be permitted too?

This still comes back to my original point (which anoNY42 seems to have a lot of problems comprehending). These laws are about risk, not about harm. Civilised people who live in societies are mindful of those societies. People in more frontier and rural areas, and if I dare start making it personal - those more selfish - have more of an "as long as I'm not hurting anyone else" mentality. If you live on 500 acres of farmland, where seeing another person on the road is so rare, it's cause to stop and catch up, I take back all I've said. But if you want to live in a society, you need to abide by the rules of that society.

It is NOT your right to determine the tolerable level of risk to everyone else around you. That right belongs to society as a whole, and their representatives have decided.

 

[flat tire]

\By doing the right thing, but illegally

OK, but the driving system in this country is TOTALLY broken with NO way to fix it. You of all people should know...you live in Austin TX home to some of the worst functioning roads in the entire country. At least your drivers are halfway polite, if incompetent.

There is no acceptable alternative I am aware of to riding illegally, besides plating the bike...and even if I did that, I would still break well-meaning but situationally inapplicable traffic laws left and right while recouping some efficiency from the broken system.

Our culture has failed people like me who are serious about driving and riding. We should value and mandate extreme driver education and training. If driving was taken halfway seriously it would go a long way toward not only alleviating all the usual stupidity you see on the road but vastly reduce deaths as well. With that kind of attitude, we could use our roads more efficiently, have speed-delimited sections like Germany and people like me can cruise at 250 kph in the left lane of clear roadways if we want to.

Not that there wouldn't be various downsides, both societal and economic, but it's an issue I'm really biased on so I will say the tradeoff is in favor of really serious driving culture.

Oh right all this is mostly moot...you won't be allowed to actually control a vehicle in another couple decades when we have autonomous evs shuttling us everywhere.