El Ciao - convert Piaggio Ciao to electric bike w mac motor

[aramburu]

Hi!

As a long time reader this is my first post here.

This is a conversion that has been floating around in my head for quite a while. This project is done together with my dad. Before ordering parts I need to double check that I don’t miss anything obvoius and straighten out some questions.

The plan is to buy the electric parts needed from Em3ev and use one of their Mac motors. I like the small size since it s about the same as the original rear hub, and as far as I have read they seem reliable and give more torque than a DD motor.

Mechanical things will be fabricated in my fathers workshop, were there are lathes, milling machines, mig/tig welders etc and he has customised motorbikes his whole life. My part is the electric and bicycle specific knowledge.

The Ciao is an italian made moped that has been made in millions since the 60’s up until a few years into the current decade and they are very common here in Europe.


This is not the actual object as it is in piece and lacks petrol engine, but exactly the same. When the build is trued and tested it will be fixed to a good finish.

Master plan
Rear hub engine instead of original drum brake hub, and add a bicycle disc brake. Battery box where the engine is originally mounted. It can protrude a bit forward and downwards. Controller under the cover on the rear chainstay or in what was the fuel tank. A really stealthy conversion is the target as this will be my fathers “daily driver” in town.

Before ordering parts I need some advice. I will put each topic in a separate post.

 

[aramburu]

MAC motor from Em3ev

Will use the “front motor” even though we will mount it rear, as it has the right hub spacing (100mm). 48V. We will not use the pedals on the bike due because the freehub construction is a bit odd with the sprocket outside the chainstay. Also the pedal axle interferes with the placement of the battery box.

Aiming for 35- 40 km/h (25mph) with 20 inch (406) wheels. 8T wind is advertised as 50 km/h with 26 inch (559) wheels. If I calculate correctly with the wheel circumference 8T would give me about 36 km/h with the 20 inch wheels. Seems correct? This vehicle can legally do 30 km/h here so I dont want to exceed that too much.

Also, obviously we will convert to disc brake since we replace the drum brake hub with the motor.

Edit: Added picture that show how the hub/sprocket is looks originally. A bearing is attached to the rear frame and the axle rotates with the hub inside the frame and the sprocket outside. We will remake this to a standard rear dropout.

 

[aramburu]

Controller

6 or 9 3077 MOSFET controller is recommended for this conversion by Em3ev. The price difference is neglectable and the difference (as far as I can see?) is 25 vs 30A output. The motor peaks at 1500W and if i remember Ohms Law correctly this means that 30A is needed with 48V.

Am i right? Is this a good choice?

Also, can you get DC 12V or 6V out of the controller or do I need a separate DC/DC converter to run the lights?

 

[aramburu]

Battery

Can you help me guesstimate what size battery we need to reach 30-40 km (20-25 miles) in range on reasonable flat roads?

50V 14S5P batteries from 12.3 to 17.0Ah or 14S7P batteries from 14.7Ah to 23.8Ah available. Price is a factor of course but range as well. Both packs will work sizewise.

Edit: Added picture of where the battery will live instead of the original engine.

 

[aramburu]

I'm very thankful for all advice and will post up a build thread when we have progress. My ebike experience is limited to a Brompton foldable bike with a 200w keyde front motor which is a completely different creature.

 

[cal3thousand]

Sounds like you need a battery that will provide around >1500Wh (1500W max for 1 hour, should be about 35km based on the calcs you have) so both batteries would see a little short on range, if you are considering riding at full speed most of the time. On a bike, you need 1 Ah for a mile as a very general ballpark. I would imagine that a scooter is not going to have as good of range. Personally, I would want a 30Ah pack for that type of cruising at the very least.

 

[Lebowski]

have you seen this Ciao conversion ? I always liked it 'cause it kept the original CVT transmission:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=44573

 

[aramburu]

Sounds like you need a battery that will provide around >1500Wh (1500W max for 1 hour, should be about 35km based on the calcs you have) so both batteries would see a little short on range, if you are considering riding at full speed most of the time. On a bike, you need 1 Ah for a mile as a very general ballpark. I would imagine that a scooter is not going to have as good of range. Personally, I would want a 30Ah pack for that type of cruising at the very least.

Hi, I understand that range estimation is a very unprecise science but it still helps me a lot. Original Ciao has a 1 hp / 0.7kW ice engine and makes 30 km/h, but lack power on climbs, so I think that power output is a good estimation for cruising. But I will still try to get hold of a bigger battery, currently investigating if I can get hold of some EV battery modules that fit.

 

[aramburu]

have you seen this Ciao conversion ? I always liked it 'cause it kept the original CVT transmission:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=44573

Hi! I have seen it, and it's nice but not as stealth as I'd like it. Also he seems to have some issues with cooling. I'd like to try out the hub motor route!

 

[motomech]

I would build a hybrid w/ a frt. hub motor and retain the gas engine.
There is 2 ways the frt. motor could be mounted. Since that fork is a link type, one link could be removed to install the motor. Might be impossible to mount a disc brake w/ the exoskelton lower legs though.
A better way is to obtain some real forks that came on various Puchs and are also avail. aftermerket There are even motorcycle style Hydro forks that have disc mount bungs and a steering stem to would match your moped. The forks I am talking about use 2-piece end-caps that clamp the axle. Easy peasy mounting.

The hardest part is matching hub motors, spoke count, rim/tire sizes and motor speed, but you will have to deal w/ this on the rear as well. You know bicycle/moped whl.s/tires measure differently. John Holmes, a member/vendor here is the expert.


Use the gas motor out in the country and the electric in town. Both for blinding speed
Lot's of good places to mount batteries on the bike.