eLation V2 Pictures now on web

i was in an aero tuck on a flat road going aprox 40kph had stopped pedeling for a second still at full throttle and the crank freewheel jambed causing the peadals to turn with the motor at a very high speed there was enough power to trow me over the handel bars
the kit is fitted to a road bike and i am very happy with the performance of the kit its a hill climbing beast but it needs more thought put into the freewheel design
 
One obvious thing you can do for safety is remove the pedals.

Sounds like you don't really need them.

Otherwise I'd have an mechanical engineer look over the design and installation closely. It could be something in the installation, or a missing washer or something.

Sometimes tiny little tweaks could make all the difference.

At least I see now what the problem was.

A third thing you could do is just always pedal.
 
zilla.
Hope you keep us informed about your jamup,
At least you are happy with the performance, as a matter of interest ,what sort of range were you getting from batt?
 
its good for about 12km at full throttle including a short 500m but very very steep hill with hard peadeling
 
Hi All,

Been a bit busy lately and so not had time to jump on. Had this posted to me for comment.

First Zilla, sorry about your attempt to launch into space. Although I am confused how you would shoot foward when rear wheel locked up :D

The problem I will discuss below was only on about 20-30 kits as once it was idenitfied it was rectified very qucikly.

The problem is that a spacer was used (to accomodate different BB). This spacer was aluminimum. I am only 173, 52 year old guy, so forces I apply did not show that over time with more force the ring could actually compress and bite into the face of the freewheel. The result of this was that when the motor was used, without pedalling the potential existed for the ring to open the bearing ring; WHOOPS.

This resulted in bearings dropping into freewheel ratches and locking bearing. This was rectified very quickly by replacing ring with stainless steel version. Since then the problem has not occurred.

As a result of this I also set up some extreme test rigs. One consists of 500W motor with a spooled length of heavy duty chain. The motor is operated at full throttle and has about 1m of chain to take up slack before being slammed to a stop when chain slack is gone.

Also using hydraulic ram on pedals now.

All I can say, with shame, was that it was a design error that slipped through. It highlights the potential of what can happen with ANY system. I would like to highlight though that it was rectified immediately and we continue to review our prodcust for areas of improvement.

With regard to Anthony dropping NZ distribution; Anthony was finding it 'easier' to sell hub systems as they are still more ell known to public and the eLation needed education to go with it, an overhead. Quoting Andrew when we discussed this matter "I only want to sell electric bikes". Anthony has sent emails to his clients explaining the move and signed off by stating that the eLation was still the best system on the market!!!!!

I agreed to cancel our agreement in light of this and was also slightly relieved. Anthony was doing a great job, but I have been having trouble getting enough stock to satisfy my direct market.

Those not in Australia who have contacted me for purchases will be aware I have stated I am not selling outside of Australasia at present, so 'dropping' NZ actually helps me a bit.

Hope that helps squash rumors.

With regard to stock numbers; I have been growing the business using only my funds to date. I did this to be sure the product was right and to be sure it was viable. I have been approached by a number of investors (including an offer to be brought out by competition). To date I have not accepted this help as I was not sure still about market.

I am now convinced the product is here to stay and along with some further advancements planned, new products and ideas, I feel eLation will grow rapidly next year. To this end I have now been searching for funding to allow the expansion.

So stay tuned. Finally, anyone that has questions that arise on here if you could email to me also I will be able to assist publcily as I am not lurking on here as much as I used to :roll:

Cheers
Allan
http://www.elationebikes.com.au
 
Nice to get a detailed and honest reply. Zilla, better confirm that your replacement is indeed Stainless steel before you hop on again.

:)

I'd say a major factor in selling more hub systems is that (at least on electricbikes.co.nz) they're cheaper and simpler to operate. It's a bit like manual vs auto.
It's obvious that geared systems are potentially superior, but you can already get a hub geared to your needs, though it won't be as flexible it will usually be 'good enough'. Then there's the need to correctly choose gears to drive the motor well and it's easy to see why many go for hubs.
 
Oneway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never thought I would see the days that "good enough...." would be a phrased used here for ebike technology :D

Shit, that is like saying my ex-wife 'was good enough', I am floored.

I have never, and hope never to be asscociated with a cheap option. By a Hyundia if you want cheap etc etc. I never want to taim for the cheap marjket, because that is what I then become; oh dear i am now a whore :D :D

Nah, all jokes aside. there will always be peopel that want something simple and cheap. Something to last for a year and then throw away to get another one. Good luck to them. I am not one. I am one that would bu a 5 year old BMW anyday to a brand new Korean or Chinese car.

Sorry, might cause a flame but thats fact for a lot of people. It is not about "up yours", it is the intangible. So hooray for the intangible dribble.
 
hi allan thanks for your reply

i dont think the fault you are talking about is what happened to me
i do not have the spacer fitted!!!!
the back wheel did not lock up
while at full throttle travelling down hill as fast as the kit will go in an aero tuck and having paused peadling the crank freewheel failed (stopped freewheeling)without warning resulting in the peadals instantly being forced by the motor to turn with with enough power to lift my 105kg this hurt (damaged) my left anckle and knee propeled my left leg up and my right leg down the peadal moved away from my right foot so fast it dropped onto the ground ripping the sole from my shoe and after a revolution hit the back of my calf leaving a huge bruise my left leg being pushed by the peadal upwards propeled me over the frount and slightly to the right (this all happened in about a tenth of a second)i slid down the road with the bike resulting in alot of gravell rash and a very scuffed bike

im not having a go at you or your product as a matter of fact i after alot of research think you have the best system but there is a serious flaw that needs sorted
 
Hi Zilla

Definitely dont think you are havign a go at me or product. But after your decsiption of event I am just glad you are OK.

I think it might still be related, but in a slightly different way that to date (until now) had not happened.

I will explain; with the problem occurring as it did because of the spacer material it was then also thought "What if someone is not using the spacer, could the same thing happen with the Aluminium cranks. So the cranks also have been modified for the next shipment on to allow for an stainless steel seat to seit against its face also, if the spacer is removed.

The only other possible cause would be bearing failure, but I jsu tcant see it being that "instant".

So much design goes inot large components and then refined down to smaller components. I truly feel we are just off being as near as possible to a great kit. There are just a few more minor mods coming out in the next batch.

Did you send bad one back to Anthony? If so I will get is over to me look at it and confimr findings on here, for all to see there is no "cover up". I want to sell the best that can be done for a kit.

Cheers
Allan
 
Off topic: Is it just me or is everyone posting drunk? Typos, Typos, Typos. :p

Of course I'm an ESL teacher by (current) trade, so I always chek for speling and grammaribility bfe psting. 8)

Woody: The thing I like about hub motors is that (at least the direct drive ones) can last for longer than the life of the bike. Less moving parts=less problems in the design. Of course they have other advantages and also they have their problems too.

I'm not trying to promote one over the other, as I have no vested interests at stake. For what it's worth I'd say that your kit is good for a sporting or enthusiast buyer. Some of us are just after a basic commuter.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want.
 
I sometimes think that a lot of people have forgotten that it is not just about keeping it simple (something I subscribe to), but also making sure it is designed to operate under full range of conditions required and more importantly also doing it efficiently.

Anyone can crack a nut with a sledge hammer, but look at the wasted power from such an inefficient means. I feel hub motors are the same. Yes, they do the (almost) same job, but waste more power through inefficiency (not being able to stay at optimal speed) OR inability (can’t address terrain). To date in countries were it is allowed the solution is simple; more power. To me, that is more waste and using a sledge hammer.

I have read a number of times on these forums that “…a lot of the innovation seems to come from down-under”. Ever asked why? I feel it is because we have had to do the best we can with 200W, and I am not sure that it has been a bad thing.

I can assure you that I have and am toying with a number of ideas that take the “simplicity” of a hub motor and give it the efficiency it needs (variable gearing).

As a bit of devil’s advocate cheekiness; how many less moving parts does a hub driven bike actually have over a chain driven bike? :)

Cheers
Allan

PS. Speling and Grandma cheked
 
off on a tangent:
I had a hyundai, it was great and cheap to fix, but low safetly rating. Now I have a EuroHolden, it is great, but costs a FORTUNE to fix. Now that Hyundais have improved their safety, I would get one new over a european car as they have 5 year warranties, and apparently easier and cheaper to work on than the esoteric designs of some euro cars.. my mate who is an ex mechanic keeps warning me from European cars because of the obscene markups on parts. But then maybe overheads on my current car will go down as I drive it less as know I have an ebike for my main commute.
But then again I just got a ebay hub motor ebike and am quite happy with it - but I see myself gradually upgrading it over time rather than discarding it. I just wanted an entry level all in one package that I could be riding within minutes of it arriving (which I was).

woody113 said:
Oneway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have never, and hope never to be asscociated with a cheap option. By a Hyundia if you want cheap etc etc. I never want to taim for the cheap marjket, because that is what I then become; oh dear i am now a whore :D :D

Nah, all jokes aside. there will always be peopel that want something simple and cheap. Something to last for a year and then throw away to get another one. Good luck to them. I am not one. I am one that would bu a 5 year old BMW anyday to a brand new Korean or Chinese car.
Click to expand...
 
FYI Allan, Zog (Duncan) works with me, and with Tony F who has an Elation (e-mailed you with some fitment issues the other day, and you sent him a throttle).

There are 4 electric bikes at work: My front hub at 48v (about 40km/h), my brothers rear hub at 48v (45km/h), Duncan's geared hub off-the-shelf bike at 36v (about 28km/h), and Tony with the Elation (goes to about 33-34km/h).

So there is a lot of comparing going on. Simplicity versus efficiency. Mine has the most torque (I can spin my front wheel if I lean back a bit), my brother's is the fastest, Tony's is the lightest, Duncan's was the easiest

There's also a Vectrix electric scooter.

200 engineers you see...
 
No I am strating to remember why I avoid foums sometimes; it is so easy to get off topice, because of what should just be seen as a general comparison.

I am going out on a limb here but are the 48V systems 200W!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am making statements that can only be seen as engnieering fact, I am sorry. Take the same capacity, motor, batteries, etc then add gears to one. Which is going to have a broader range of orperation and allow the drive source to operate at its most optimum.

You dont need 200 engineers to comeprehend that.........

CHeers
Allan :)
 
Define 200w exactly...

Max amps of controller multiplied by max volts of battery?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours!
 
Yeah, thought as much.

Look I came on to try and clear up some comments/concerns about the eLation system. Not to getting into pissing match over distorted info.

If anyone has any questions you can contact me through web site.

Cheers
Allan
 
Just a quick not to clarify my comment on '...distorted info'. You want to compare, then compare fairly or learn to remove your signoff tag "41kph flat speed with pedalling", before distorting data.

Clearly you were comparing your pedalling speed to the elation non-pedalling speed which is 35kph. If you bother to search other entries in this forum you will see people stating over 50kph on eLation when pedalling, and I have hit 59kph when pedalling.

Unfortunately it is your type of BS that is causing so much confusion amongst laymen truly trying to get an angle on facts and not some "1/200 of an engineers" distorted 'experimental results.

Allan
 
Calm down.

Umm, no I wasn't.

The elation (on a hybrid), would do about 28 without pedalling. With some medium pedalling it would do 33-34. I had trouble with it as I was never sure whether the power was engaged properly, as it took about 15 seconds for the motor to wind up, so I was always in the wrong gear by the time the power came on - it just messed me around.

I'll have another go when the replacement throttle is fitted, which should make it a lot more rideable.

I was reasonably impressed, as it was significantly faster than the off-the-shelf 200w Green-e-wheels bike, which I got to about 28 with the same amount of pedalling.

You can read between the lines on the 48v systems. Interestingly, my 48v hub motor system does draw almost EXACTLY 200w at 40km/h (at 45 it draws zero power as that is the freewheel speed). At stall, it's a different story (but zero power output at stall).

Yes, a system like yours is milking all you can get out of ~200w.

I think the next step for you is something like an Optibike, where the drive system is more integrated, but different enough to avoid their IP, and affordable. The Optibike has a SRAM grip shifter fitted upside down on the left hand side for the rear derailleur - that should have reasonable ergonomics, the trick would be a way of making a front shift usable as well (the Optibike doesn't have front gears)...

Don't be so defensive, you know what bikes most of us have here.
 
I can understand being defensive. The eLation is like his baby. If I'd engineered it and brought it to market I'd be saying the same things. And it's a very nice looking baby too.

I doubt there's a 48v motor in the world that pulls 200W max. 200W continuous I could believe. The extra power is really only needed for hillclimbing, acceleration or trying to kill yourself by pretending you're on a motorbike IMO.

Anyway in NZ we get 300W.

I have a more technical question for you Allan. For various reasons, including cleaner lines, less stuff hanging out to break and easier maintainence I would prefer to get a bike with a internally geared hub, instead of a deraileur. (Probably a Shimano nexus.) That leaves either front hub motors(with the associated problems in securing forks) or a chaindrive.

Many of the internally geared hubs are great for shifting at zero power applied, but will protest if a lot of power is applied while trying to shift. Have you tried this with your kit, and any advice on it?

I was thinking I'd need to use the old ease the throttle down and clutch type technique that one does in motorbikes.
 
Mark,
I suppose I was starting to get defensive but more about distortion of info that is getting around. Yes I do know majority of people on here push the envelope and because of that progress occurs.

I answered another post http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5529&p=90281#p90281 on here that may also help you see why I get annoyed. eLation is making an impact in Aust and I am getting a bit tired of the calls I get each day from possible cusotmers with the next piece of BS that has comes from the "opposition".

In relation to Optibike. I was heading down a similar path until I found their full patent; oh well.

I have looked at designing a more flush throttle but even though it is a cheap component, the initial tooling cost will leave it on the back burner for a while. A possible interim solution would be an auto gear just on front; read below for more on this.

OneWay
You are also right, it is my baby. Not so sure on the beautiful bit though. They all look the same to start with :D

Current design is in line to release a V3, which will effectively become a full electric bike; ie not kit. This will allow components to be better integrated into the frame. So comments below follow in this vain.

In relation to gearing; that and a few other areas are being looked at by me at the moment. You must remember I am an Electronics Engineer and all this design to date has been mechanical, so some times I need time to get the theory under my belt before commencing with any 'idea' I may have.

I have been asked by a number of people, who just want to get on and ride, is there a way of setting up an automatic bike. Well as we all know they already exist in one form or another. Two problems I see though is rapid stop (changer is left in too higher a gear) and anticipation of terrain (by the time a hill comes you need to be in the right gear).

So a fully auto system is not the go; so maybe an auto with manual 'override'; who knows.

An approach I am looking at is CVT, but not same as NuVinci. Theirs is great system but expensive and patented. Do not want to go into too much details here for IP reason but any links people can throw at me to keep educating me would be appreciated.

Motor design/placement is also being looked at to improve a number of factors. One is a new gearbox that will allow 90deg drive. I just made the first proto the other day using acetal gears (keep cost down for proto). Was really happy with how compact I have been able to make it.

So to offer my opinion on using internal gears, etc. The view I take is if it cannot be ridden a certain way without a motor then it cannot be with one. Obvious I know, but the fault is with the 'component' then not the drive so the component needs to be addressed first. Hope that is a safe answer :):)
 
woody113 said:
So to offer my opinion on using internal gears, etc. The view I take is if it cannot be ridden a certain way without a motor then it cannot be with one. Obvious I know, but the fault is with the 'component' then not the drive so the component needs to be addressed first. Hope that is a safe answer :):)
Click to expand...

Safe from what? :)

It doesn't make sense, to me.
 
If you cant or should not do it without a motor, then dont do it with one :):)
 
I was asking how his kit interacted with internally geared hubs, like the Shimano Nexus. Internally geared hubs often come with thicker chains and less maintainence. The disadvantages of slightly greater loss and weight aren't such an issue for an ebike. Being able to change while stopped is good, but they often won't change properly while too much torque is applied. I was asking if that would be an problem.

Actually other chain driven ebikes have hub gears so it should be ok, as long as you don't try stuff that you wouldn't do unpowered. Point taken.
 
My 3 speed shimano worked fine with the MY1018 driveline (motor freewneel on left) if U treated it like a standard shift under power and let off the throttle for a moment. Seems like a small price to pay for the ease of shifting at stopsigns and hills. U also have to ease the pedal power, of course, to shift. My Shimano is about 40 years old, so the new ones must be better :)
otherDoc
 
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