Falco e-Motors

[BlueRain]

After reading this entire thread ......I'm curious to know if any of you who own a Falco E-Motor , would you buy it again ?

Thanks

 

[Ottodog]

After reading this entire thread ......I'm curious to know if any of you who own a Falco E-Motor , would you buy it again ?

Thanks

I'm considering buying another Falco kit for a Mtn. Bike Project. I had been thinking of buying a production e-bike such as the iZip Dash as my next bike, but you get a lot more speed and control with a Kit. With the Falco kit you also get throttle at any speed and a 5 year warranty. Most of the production bikes cut off throttle at 20 mph and won't let you use the throttle at all if you are in Pedelec mode. The Falco throttle works unrestricted at any speed in any mode.

The owner of the company is what ultimately sold me. He answers the phone himself and was very patient and helpful to me in getting my 500 watt kit set up the way I wanted it. He even offered to let me upgrade to a more powerful 750 watt kit if I felt I needed even more power. So that's another reason to go with a kit. There are very few production e-bikes that are more than 500 watts unrestricted. Of all the kits I saw, I liked the Falco the best. A lot of the kits I see recommended come with bulky battery systems that hang on the frame in bags or have to be put on a rear rack. I much prefer the polished look of the Falco kits.

Here's my Hybrid Project that I just completed. It's a very clean look :

 

[deerfencer]

Nice build, Ottodog! How many miles do you have on it? Best of luck with it.

I am friendly with Rakesh dating back to Tidalforce days but I have to be honest and admit I'm more than bothered by the fact that Team Hybrid in the U.K. has abandoned the Falco kits and sold off their apparently problematic stock in bulk (and cheaply) on eBay just last month as posted earlier here by another member. (See below) I know for a fact that Team Hybrid was perhaps THE main cheerleader behind Falco going back several years and I believe Mark @ Team Hybrid worked directly with Rakesh on the development of these systems.

I will also note that Rye Court mentioned Electric Cyclery in CA as a Falco dealer when he did a short YouTube review of Falco last year and yet a visit to EC's website today shows them only carrying Bionx as a motor drive kit. Not a good sign when two of your more active dealers abandon you.

It gives me no joy to report this as I know Rakesh & Co worked very hard on these drives and the systems sounded very promising. I had some passing interest in them due to the silent drive but learned of some overheating issues last year and decided to let them get tested by the market for a couple years. Apparently the market has spoken.

:-(

 

[Samd]

It brings me joy.

Rakesh was rude when people tried to test his arguments. It got nasty.

 

[neptronix]

Why bother when you can have a ~5% more efficient leafmotor or mxus at a dramatically lower cost?

After reading this entire thread ......I'm curious to know if any of you who own a Falco E-Motor , would you buy it again ?

Thanks

 

[arkmundi]

Because the Falco is pressing the technology further with its ultra-high efficiency and 5-phase motor design. They claim, and more probably than not, to deliver the highest torque per watt on the market. That said, after diving deep and looking at the market in 2014, I bought a geared MAC kit from EM3ev. Just like I own a Dell laptop, rather getting an Apple Mac. Not torque per watt, but watts per dollar spent. Nonetheless, I very much appreciate the people and companies pressing the limits and advancing the state of the art. After awhile and a bit of maturation, they should be able to bring their prices down.

 

[neptronix]

I suppose i shouldn't be surprised that i saw that response from you.. since in another thread, you said that you don't know how to read dyno graph sheets.

I'm gonna repeat myself again.

The limited information that Falco gave us indicates around 84-87% peak efficiency.

There are multiple 3 phase hub motors on the market you can buy for a fifth of the cost which hit 90% peak efficiency. There are proper dyno charts for those motors, and ebikes.ca's recent test confirm that for one of the motors: the MXUS 3000W.

If ~85% is ultra high efficiency, what is 90%?

Nothing about Falco's proprietary motor and controller design advances the state of the art or brings cost down for anyone. 5 phase offers no advantage other than locking you into the vendor's overpriced parts. The most efficient motors ever produced are 3 phase motors.

If you like proprietary overpriced stuff, buy an Apple, not a Dell. This motor is an Apple that is 5 times more expensive than a dell, yet less powerful..

Because the Falco is pressing the technology further with its ultra-high efficiency and 5-phase motor design. They claim, and more probably than not, to deliver the highest torque per watt on the market. That said, after diving deep and looking at the market in 2014, I bought a geared MAC kit from EM3ev. Just like I own a Dell laptop, rather getting an Apple Mac. Not torque per watt, but watts per dollar spent. Nonetheless, I very much appreciate the people and companies pressing the limits and advancing the state of the art. After awhile and a bit of maturation, they should be able to bring their prices down.

 

[miro13car]

Arkmundi is right,
buying FALCO
what you pay for is NOT just motor but well intergrated ebike drive with controller inside motor which might not be advantage to you but it is advantage to many.
Lets call it "motor/controller"
Controller not just cheap crap but FOC controller , the best in industry.
what you pay for is protection, you cannot just burn FALCO motor/controller it protects itself.
It is obvious product designed to Western standards should fail safe.
Maybe some people want to ride worry free of overheating?

 

[Triketech]

While the Falco 5 phase is intriguing, along with a 5 year warranty, some things don't quite seem right.

First is the lack of any good comparative data. No one has yet to have provided any comprehensive test data with comparisons. I'm very skeptical that the HX500 will consume any less power then a 9C 30mm. I'm even more skeptical that the HX500 will climb as well as a 9C.

The good news is the HX500 comes with a controller, after all not many 5 phase controllers out there selling for $50. It also has a built in torque sensor which is probably the best of the good news. But that seems to be where the good news ends.

The bad news is it uses an antiquated freewheel rather then a freehub. That integrated controller is also bad news as its shares heat dissipation surface area with the motor coils. While the HX500 price seems a bit steep at $795, forcing the user to spend more for off-road settings is just plain absurd.

Good and bad aside, Falco may be the best product that ever came from India or it may be overpriced junk. Without a fair and objective review its an $800 gamble that most potential buyers don't seem willing to pay.

If I were running the ship and felt it really was what it was cracked up to be I would have no problem donating a pair of them to Justin to have tested for the Motor Simulator.

Just my nickel's worth.

 

[Ottodog]

I suppose i shouldn't be surprised that i saw that response from you.. since in another thread, you said that you don't know how to read dyno graph sheets.

I'm gonna repeat myself again.

The limited information that Falco gave us indicates around 84-87% peak efficiency.

There are multiple 3 phase hub motors on the market you can buy for a fifth of the cost which hit 90% peak efficiency. There are proper dyno charts for those motors, and ebikes.ca's recent test confirm that for one of the motors: the MXUS 3000W.

If ~85% is ultra high efficiency, what is 90%?

Nothing about Falco's proprietary motor and controller design advances the state of the art or brings cost down for anyone. 5 phase offers no advantage other than locking you into the vendor's overpriced parts. The most efficient motors ever produced are 3 phase motors.

If you like proprietary overpriced stuff, buy an Apple, not a Dell. This motor is an Apple that is 5 times more expensive than a dell, yet less powerful..

Because the Falco is pressing the technology further with its ultra-high efficiency and 5-phase motor design. They claim, and more probably than not, to deliver the highest torque per watt on the market. That said, after diving deep and looking at the market in 2014, I bought a geared MAC kit from EM3ev. Just like I own a Dell laptop, rather getting an Apple Mac. Not torque per watt, but watts per dollar spent. Nonetheless, I very much appreciate the people and companies pressing the limits and advancing the state of the art. After awhile and a bit of maturation, they should be able to bring their prices down.

Wouldn't a 3000 watt motor be extremely heavy and require a massive battery? I was looking for something short range, fast, and turn-key. If you can point me to an unrestricted, turn key system that has matched components and a battery that attaches to the frame (versus in a bag or on a rack), I'm open to considering it. There simply aren't that many to choose from.

 

[arkmundi]

First is the lack of any good comparative data. No one has yet to have provided any comprehensive test data with comparisons. I'm very skeptical that the HX500 will consume any less power then a 9C 30mm. I'm even more skeptical that the HX500 will climb as well as a 9C....

Good and bad aside, Falco may be the best product that ever came from India or it may be overpriced junk. Without a fair and objective review its an $800 gamble that most potential buyers don't seem willing to pay.

If I were running the ship and felt it really was what it was cracked up to be I would have no problem donating a pair of them to Justin to have tested for the Motor Simulator.

Justin's motor simulator is surely the gold standard for comparative data on motors and their performance. It started off, as often the case, as an ambitious project for the eBike consumer to make some tough choices. But it has evolved and is quite mature. He asks prospective manufacturers/sellers for two motors for the test and is a fair price for entry.

So someone more invested, like Falco themselves, or a bunch of his resellers, should get it together and make that happen. Its a fair challenge. For the elite eBike techie, comparative data, comparing apples with apples, on a test platform like Justin & his team have assembled, is necessary. Never mind, as teslanv pointed out launching his Kinaye Motorsports with the MXUS, that's its advertising. If it happens, please post some charts!

 

[miro13car]

Triketech
FALCO came from India?????
, it is only manufactured there,
but
It came means was designed by USA design company , the same company which design legendary Tidal Force and EPLUS drives.
to compare with what?
9C with what controller?
Inside controller is advantage for sure.
You must compare complete systems motor/controllers not just motors,

 

[Triketech]

Triketech
FALCO came from India?????
, it is only manufactured there,
but
It came means was designed by USA design company , the same company which design legendary Tidal Force and EPLUS drives.
to compare with what?
9C with what controller?
Inside controller is advantage for sure.
You must compare complete systems motor/controllers not just motors,

Manufactured there means came from there. Viyay Mallya steers clear of any components supplied from India for his F1 team. Maybe you can guess why. Further when the USA stops giving billions of taxpayer dollars to India or any other country, I'll consider evaluating their labor at a rate commensurate with their country. Until then I'll deduct what my tax dollars are providing them from purchases I make from them.

I'll consider you've never seen the Motor Simulator. Have a look and you'll find the questions about controllers are irrelevant.

The point is there are no OEM or valid independent comparisons, but there are plenty of excuses as to why not. Like I said, something doesn't smell right.

 

[neptronix]

Wouldn't a 3000 watt motor be extremely heavy and require a massive battery? I was looking for something short range, fast, and turn-key. If you can point me to an unrestricted, turn key system that has matched components and a battery that attaches to the frame (versus in a bag or on a rack), I'm open to considering it. There simply aren't that many to choose from.

No, it wouldn't.

I push 4000w peak, 2000w continuous on a 90.5% peak efficient 16lb motor with a 15lb battery in the triangle. My battery would be 20-25% lighter than that with newer tech.
You don't feel the weight when you ride. Not when your top speed is 45 on the flat.. or average 35-40mph climbing long hills. You don't really feel it while cornering either.. and the range is huge 40-50 miles at 30mph..

If you want 'turn key' and can't manage to do things yourself such as soldering 5 wires to connectors.. you're stuck with proprietary, less efficient, dramatically more expensive motor solutions that are even worse to maintain because replacement parts are super expensive.

These motors are kinda like buying something at Ferrari price and Ferrari maintenance cost, yet the car performs like a Honda Civic Si..

Another analogy: this kit ( or buying a complete turnkey ebike ) is like going out to 'best buy' and buying their most expensive computer, versus using your hands to build a computer that is three times more powerful and saving yourself tons of money. ( another thing that i am a fan of doing! )

Yes, you don't have to do any thinking in order to get it going. It's a nice package. But it's still a joke compared to what's out there.

 

[arkmundi]

Looks like an admirable engineering team putting together a good company and selling solid working tech in the world market and standing 100% behind their product with a 5 year warranty. Hence, no, its not a joke, and once again, should not be slammed here on the Sphere until there is more public data. I'm all for better, third party data of the Justin variety. Until then, such comments should be held in reserve.

 

[neptronix]

Okay.
I'm going to go do something productive now.. rather than repeat myself about apparently uninteresting things such as value, performance, and efficiency.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

Looks like an admirable engineering team putting together a good company and selling solid working tech in the world market and standing 100% behind their product with a 5 year warranty. Hence, no, its not a joke, and once again, should not be slammed here on the Sphere until there is more public data. I'm all for better, third party data of the Justin variety. Until then, such comments should be held in reserve.

There could easily *be* public data by now, all it takes is some cooperation by either the manufacturer or a distributor.

Initially I was very positive toward the Falco system and actually considered buying one, I'm considerably less inclined that way now that it seems to be impossible to get anyone to give hard numbers on what's actually happening power and efficiency wise with the systems.

I also felt positive toward the Xiongda 2 speed motor system and was strongly considering a purchase from them but after much back and forth with the factory couldn't get what I considered satisfactory answers to fairly basic questions.

Eventually I wound up spending about a quarter of the Falco money on a 9C clone that has worked very well and trouble free for me despite being decidedly low tech compared to a Falco or even a Xiongda. Unfortunately I require my ebike for regular transportation and cannot afford for my everyday transportation to be a test mule for the factory to debug their design and manufacturing processes on.

 

[Ottodog]

Joke is in the eye of the beholder. I wanted something that looked understated and OEM and doesn't look like I put it together in my garage. What you have there looks exactly like what it is. A DIY hobby project complete with miles of electrical tape. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not what I wanted for myself. Maybe open your mind up to other possibilities and that not everyone has your taste. I don't see what you have done is "better" than what I have done with my Falco Kit. I"d much prefer what I have. Different strokes my friend.

Some folks put performance ahead of aesthetics.

Then again dumb blondes need love too.

Some people want both. The extra money a kit like this costs is for the matched system and the time it took the engineers to design and implement it into a fully polished turn key solution with top notch tech support and warranty for 5 years. If the controller or the motor have a problem you simply swap out the whole wheel. Much easier than trying to figure out what bit went wrong and then trying to get several different vendors to warranty the problem in a time efficient manner. Yes you pay more for a turn key fully supported system, but in my opinion it's worth it after reading some of the horror stories here.

 

[Triketech]

Some people want both. The extra money a kit like this costs is for the matched system and the time it took the engineers to design and implement it into a fully polished turn key solution with top notch tech support and warranty for 5 years. If the controller or the motor have a problem you simply swap out the whole wheel. Much easier than trying to figure out what bit went wrong and then trying to get several different vendors to warranty the problem in a time efficient manner. Yes you pay more for a turn key fully supported system, but in my opinion it's worth it after reading some of the horror stories here. It doesn't make that person "dumb" either. Dumb is also in the eye of the beholder and that's all I"m going to say about that.

So what your saying from a business perspective is they don't plan on selling enough to amortize the engineering investment, and expect high warranty cost. OK fair enough.

But the question of performance has yet to be answered with any substance.

 

[Triketech]

No. I'm saying that fully supported, well engineered systems require more money to support and produce. You can always DIY for cheaper. As far as performance, I don't subscribe to your theory that bigger is better. There's really no need for a 3000 watt motor. You're simply increasing weight and heat. I also think your installation looks sloppy and vulnerable to theft and damage. It will also be far more difficult to trouble shoot and get warranty for. As I said, different strokes. What you have is not "better" except in your own narrow definition of "bang for the buck".

Honda products are well engineered yet they sell for lower costs then most of the more inferior products they compete with. And lets not forget that the Falco labor cost comes from a country where child labor is prevalent, and "qualified" engineers earn less then $20,000 a year. While I'm at it, what's up with the "Falco Off-Road Tax" fees?

Anyone who needs more then an hour of "live consultation" with an engineer for a hubmotor is wasting time and money. Very, very poor business model. In the 20th century documentation sufficed for BLDC and Stepper Motors. In the 21st century online manuals that include 3D graphics and animation if needed are pretty common. Which reminds me; not all the links on the Falco eMotors site even work, and its on a low cost very slow shared server.

I'm not looking for a 3000 watt motor. I'm looking for a motor that will assist pedaling, particularly uphills. For example climb an elevation of 1200 feet over varying grades. I can furnish 400 watts peak for about a minute and 175 watts average. I would like mostly a boost up to 1200 watts for maybe a minute and continue with a sustained boost of 500 watts. Because I pedal, I'm not giving up a 36-11 cassette. Falco mentions their hub is freehub compatible on one of their drawings, but no hub exists that bolts up to the 6 holes provisioned.

As far as power consumption, if I want to ride a 40 mile route with a 1000-1500' elevation rise no data has been published that gives even the slightest clue what the consumption rates are at various RPM & load.

Unless I'm missing something it certainly looks pretty clear that Falco is a hubmotor for dummies. More and more its looking like a Bionix wannabe, and that's fine it it is. Just have the guts to admit it.

Again, all I'm really looking for is realistic data on consumption and thermal resistance at the least. If they don't care to provide that level of data that's understandable; of course that makes it a junk motor to the vast majority of the market too.

 

[Ottodog]

No. I'm saying that fully supported, well engineered systems require more money to support and produce. You can always DIY for cheaper. As far as performance, I don't subscribe to your theory that bigger is better. There's really no need for a 3000 watt motor. You're simply increasing weight and heat. I also think your installation looks sloppy and vulnerable to theft and damage. It will also be far more difficult to trouble shoot and get warranty for. As I said, different strokes. What you have is not "better" except in your own narrow definition of "bang for the buck".

Honda products are well engineered yet they sell for lower costs then most of the (pointless strawman argument) ...

I don't disagree with some of what you say. They could have better online support, that's for sure and I've told them so. The bottom line for me, is I want a system that looks good and is easy to install. I don't want a kit that has parts from several different vendors and requires soldering, lots of electrical tape, and guess work. I do think your bike is pretty cool in a brute force kind of way and I'm glad you got it cheap. That's not what I wanted. I wanted something slick and professional looking that didn't scream "home made electric bike". Battery systems like yours that attach with velcro get stolen. I much prefer a battery that attaches to the frame with a key and lock.

I did a lot of research on the various Kits and the Falco and BionX are the only two turnkey kits I could find that had a locking battery system. Of the two, Falco was the only one that didn't come with a 20 mph speed limit. For me the choice was easy and cost was the last consideration for me. It's all about priorities. I suppose I could have built my Electric Car a lot cheaper than what I paid for my Tesla. But I didn't. Why? Because I'm willing to pay more to get a fully integrated and supported product. The fact that you'd build your own computer from scratch to save a few bucks kind of says it all. People like you and I are never going to agree on anything. I am Macintosh and you are PC. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine, but I defend to the death your right to be wrong.

 

[arkmundi]

... The fact that you'd build your own computer from scratch to save a few bucks kind of says it all. You are PC. I am Macintosh. You are Republican, I am Democrat. People like you and I are never going to agree on anything. But I defend to the death your right to be wrong.

... and, I am Linux, and Independent. But I did make my first computer, back in 1978, though I wouldn't today, Though I do repair my Dell laptop, because it costs less than buying new. But I didn't buy a Falco, though I listed it as one of the Top 10 kits. And yea, I'd love to own a Tesla, but can't afford it. What does it mean? Really mean? Am I left or right, or in the middle? Am I weird? Are there no other people like me? Or is it that I'm just like most people, so don't stand-out? Oh God or Dog. What's Dauntless going to say next? Or OughtToDog? Or was that GodOughtTo? I can't ever get anything right... :lol: :lol:

 

[Ottodog]

... and, I am Linux, and Independent. But I did make my first computer, back in 1978, though I wouldn't today, Though I do repair my Dell laptop, because it costs less than buying new. But I didn't buy a Falco, though I listed it as one of the Top 10 kits. And yea, I'd love to own a Tesla, but can't afford it. What does it mean? Really mean? Am I left or right, or in the middle? Am I weird? Are there no other people like me? Or is it that I'm just like most people, so don't stand-out? Oh God or Dog. What's Dauntless going to say next? Or OughtToDog? Or was that GodOughtTo? I can't ever get anything right... :lol: :lol:

I did appreciate the top ten list you did. It definitely aided in my decision. Am I right that the only two systems on your list that have a locking battery systems are the BionX and the Falco? That was a really important feature for me as I've known people who have had their (very expensive) battery packs stolen off their bikes.

 

[arkmundi]

There is such a plethora of choices these days that there is no way to survey, so who knows. Built my own battery and box and have made it very difficult to steal. Theft is the number one reason to get mad. No wonder there are so many angry people.

 

[Ottodog]

I did appreciate the top ten list you did. It definitely aided in my decision. Am I right that the only two systems on your list that have a locking battery systems are the BionX and the Falco? That was a really important feature for me as I've known people who have had their (very expensive) battery packs stolen off their bikes.

There is such a plethora of choices these days that there is no way to survey, so who knows. Built my own battery and box and have made it very difficult to steal. Theft is the number one reason to get mad. No wonder there are so many angry people.

I was talking about the ten kits you recommended on your list. Do any of those (besides Falco and BionX) come with a permanently mounted, locking battery system?