Falco e-Motors

[Bike_on]

PR claims:

If you read my previous post and LFP analysis of clogging torque vs core loss, we have to diffentiate the two, relative to the Falco pr claims.

Falco testified about the knee busting force on the TF. I believe their goal is zero starting force, no clogging , balanced windings and equal area under the curve. I believe the 5 phases make it smoother and less clogging effects as well.

The resistance from the core, as one rolls down the road, will always be there on DD motors. This can be measured on the motor. I am not sure the pr lit is claiming zero resistance at cruising speeds. If it does, it should be changed to something like "lowest, lower" etc.

 

[flathill]

Thank you for being honest

Now just make it clear

"Effectively Zero cogging"
"Lowest drag in direct drive industry"
"No gears or clutch to break"
"No gear losses"

You have a great product. It will sell itself once you reach critical mass and word-of-mouth takes off

 

[Punx0r]

At what rotational speed does resistance to turning stop being cogging and become drag?

Above the speed at which the motor would naturally rotate from one "cog" to the next given a tiny nudge?

 

[Miles]

Here are some answers for you: ( please research before answering further)

What is cogging

Cogging is the magnet and stator interaction at rest ( at zero speed). It has nothing to do with core losses. It manifests itself during pedaling when motor is not activated. Core losses are fairly negligible in direct drive eBike motors as electrical speed is fairly low.

My emphasis.

 

[Bike_on]

Thank you for being honest

Now just make it clear

"Effectively Zero cogging"

This is a subjectable test by the rider, or produce a torque response graph like LFP posted.

"Lowest drag in direct drive industry"

This will be confirmed by a no load freewheel test, and compared to Justin's Bionx plot.

"No gears or clutch to break"

This is true, a DD hub.

"No gear losses"

This is true, a DD hub. However, we all agree there are core losses. So technically, this statement is True advertising, (No internal gears). Falco is also likely referring to efficiency losses of a geared hub under load, which is a benefit of DD, and arguable more important than the core/coast down losses - where the geared hub freewheels and beats the pantsoff the DD. Personally, high core losses are very annoying compared to a freewheel effect, which is more bike like.

You have a great product. It will sell itself once you reach critical mass and word-of-mouth takes off

 

[liveforphysics]

Thank you for being honest

Now just make it clear

"Effectively Zero cogging"
"Lowest drag in direct drive industry"
"No gears or clutch to break"
"No gear losses"

You have a great product. It will sell itself once you reach critical mass and word-of-mouth takes off

While we're on the subject of nit-picking claims, I don't think we've seen any evidence of it's drag quantified anywhere to say it's the industry lowest. It may be, which would be awesome and cause me to like the motor even more, but at the moment that claim is just conjecture.

The moment we have someone with a calibrated CA simply lift the wheel off the ground and take a phone video of the CA screen as they hold the throttle fixed at a low speed, medium speed, and high speed RPM, we will know if we're even in the ballpark of possibility to have that claim be true.

The the moment I've seen no evidence of any kind to support it though, as cogging torque ripple is unrelated to anything to do with the power to sustain the motor spinning, and I've only seen them offer simulated cogging torque ripple data.

 

[999zip999]

IF ?

 

[Bike_on]

Stay tuned for testing.

 

[liveforphysics]

Stay tuned for testing.

Thank you! Your efforts are appreciated by many!

 

[justin_le]

Stay tuned for testing.

Cool. If you are getting a bit of variation in the no-load amps display from wheel vibration etc., you can set the "display averaging" in the CA setup menu to a high value which will give a more smoothed out and steady average. I have a sample of the fairly new direct drive Heinzmann motor on its way here too, so we'll have another (hopefully) modern and higher end DD system for comparison sake.

Ideally, we would want to normalize the no load drag with the continuous torque output capability of the hub, otherwise less powerful motors will naturally have an unfair advantage in this metric, even if they are not intrinsically a better design.

 

[liveforphysics]

Stay tuned for testing.

Cool. If you are getting a bit of variation in the no-load amps display from wheel vibration etc., you can set the "display averaging" in the CA setup menu to a high value which will give a more smoothed out and steady average. I have a sample of the fairly new direct drive Heinzmann motor on its way here too, so we'll have another (hopefully) modern and higher end DD system for comparison sake.

Ideally, we would want to normalize the no load drag with the continuous torque output capability of the hub, otherwise less powerful motors will naturally have an unfair advantage in this metric, even if they are not intrinsically a better design.

Outstanding to hear you've got a new Heinzmann sample coming my friend.

I'm still looking for a vendor who will take my money to ship you a Falco to test. Any Falco vendor out there willing to ship a motor I purchase straight to Justin in Vancouver Canada?

Bike_on? Still with us buddy? Anything we can do to help you get the no-load readings?

 

[Bike_on]

LFP,

Alive and kick'in.

Falco sent me an updated motor program that I plan to download this weekend. I am also awaiting a new console from them.

Right now, when I apply throttle under no load, the motor controller surges, then kicks off so I can't maintain a constant rpm. Once I get the new program going, I hope it helps.

Note: I realized the cut out is because of the 20mph cut off. I do not currently have a consol and cannot dial on cruise mode or limit override. The new program is suppose to default to cruise mode.

I also have a broken spoke and a slight brake rub. I need to get that going.

The new Falco controller will display Ahr, V and inst W and Whr, I think. It has an instant regen mode if one holds the (-) button. I asked them to add that and the complied. Now you don't have to dial down to get into regen if flying up to a stop sign. Just hold, slow down, let go, and back to power assist. Falco sent me rev - on this last fall, but it didn't work. This is rev A.

Once I get it programmed and no brake rub, I can do the test.

Bike _on

 

[Bike_on]

Falco Test Update,

I programmed my motor with the latest upgrade from Falco e-M. It worked. The default is cruise mode (no speed limit), and level 5, I assume. I still do not have the updated console yet, but my CA showed a strong 950W pedaling just above nice-n-easy. The run-on was very noticeable. I believe they extended the turn off as part of a soft turn off. When this motor cuts off hard, I feel in in the aluminum bike frame and is can be noisy if real hard. It is almost like a back kick from the EMF.

No test yet - I did a quick spin and my wheel now has 2 broken spokes and it wobbles bad. Because I have Tekro road bike caliper brakes, I can't open them up enough to not drag on one side or the other. Any test right now will be spoiled with that drag.

i am working on it.

 

[Bike_on]

Quick Compare:
I test rode the IZIP Dash and Eflo Nitro today at the local bike shop. The shop is all in with the Currie brand.

The DAsh is a 48V system, 4 levels, pedelec or Thr. With 700cc/28in wheels, it is fast. Level 4 needed little effort to get up to 23-25. Going hard saw 34 mph. Mech disk brakes. Decent front shocks,w lockout. Throttle response ok, a little weak. forgot to check for regen, but switch seemed to be in brake.

Eflo Nitro had 26 in tires. As a pedelc, it topped out at 20mph - kind of disappointing. It may have felt a bit smoother. Had a head shock. Poor torque with throttle. Pedelec response was satisfactory, but not extreme. Had hyd disk brakes. Showed regen via brakes, didnt feel it.

Both bikes felt moderate weighty, but not slug heavy. An in shape man could lift them over his head with some work. The displays were small enough and nice contrast. The Nitro was a bit sharper. Still, the CA on the Falco Rocks! It always seems to work, good backlight and size of numbers.

Falco today: accelerated better than both. It is tuned very high output and responsive right not at level 5. I see 28A on the CA and stays that was in pedelec with light effort. I was riding in the dark (with a light) so no top speed checks. Rakesh told me that the new program tuned down the peak current for better battery range. It may be 1-2 amps less peak current, but still very responsive.

Battery - The droop in horrible. At 28A, I saw 33-34V from 40 no load, so 6-7 volt drop. It is a year old LiMn battery.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Thanks for the post Bike_on: "Rakesh told me that the new program tuned down the peak current for better battery range. It may be 1-2 amps less peak current, but still very response"
I gave Rakesh some feed back on this last year that I thought level 1 gave too much assist and that I was never using any of the upper ranges. If I needed more assist to climb a short hill I just used turbo mode. So I'm not going to tinker with any adjustments after installing new flash. We'll see what it runs like first. Still snowing here in MN so getting out is tough.
I'm almost 65 and don't need speed. My wife and I love running at a pace of 12-16mph. I would like to get a distance of about 60 miles with my 12ahr battery. Currently its around 35-40 miles. (She's in great shape 8 years younger and has no assist) It would also be great if I could use a real fast charger while stopping for an hour or so of lunch. I haven't seen any solutions here on that or do I know if you can do that. Hope battery power is the same as last year Bike_On. I did top it off every month over the winter. Did a run of 75 miles last fall saving the battery for those dreaded hills. Charged that battery at noon for an hour plus a long down hill run back into Duluth using renen gave me enough battery to climb that last 1 block hill. Needless to say I was beat but felt good.
Does that new console have a darker font now. Could you elaborate on the changes/additions a little more. I like the instant regen button idea I use regen lots to slow the bike down on steep hills. It seems like just a little bit of regen after the battery is dead will give you a quick spike to climb one last short hill. After that the battery is truly dead. I'll be able to test that more this summer.
Curiously Did some reading on other brands and new posts on kits and pricing and still would buy a Falco again. I wanted a system that just worked. No burnt up wires/controllers or hub gears failing. So far no problems. Support has been good.
I Love my Falco
Oh one suggestion to other posters. I will the example of Cogging or no cogging multiple posts and false advertising. It's a pain to wade through all these what I will call argumentive post. Could a new thread be started as Falco technical or something of the like and you could move your thoughts over there and then do a post back here if you have some factual data. You can then argue to your hearts content and It would help to keep this forum cleaner. I've seen this done on other boards and I think it works great as some users make way too many posts. I want to know about good points and bad points of the system from people in the know. Not from someone who doesn't even own the system.
IMHO
Tom

 

[ambroseliao]

I Love my Falco
Oh one suggestion to other posters. I will the example of Cogging or no cogging multiple posts and false advertising. It's a pain to wade through all these what I will call argumentive post. Could a new thread be started as Falco technical or something of the like and you could move your thoughts over there and then do a post back here if you have some factual data. You can then argue to your hearts content and It would help to keep this forum cleaner. I've seen this done on other boards and I think it works great as some users make way too many posts. I want to know about good points and bad points of the system from people in the know. Not from someone who doesn't even own the system.
IMHO
Tom

Thanks Tom,

To resolve the issue of cogging or no cogging, we could start a new topic, however, you could resolve it fairly quickly if you would go to your Falco ebike and lift up the rear wheel and give the wheel a spin. How many revolutions does it go around before it stops. If it's more than you care to count, then it does not cog! If however, it stops after a turn or two, then it does cog. You could do this twice: once with the power on and once with the power off. No one, as far as I know, has done this yet and reported back.

Thanks.

 

[Bike_on]

Thanks for the post Bike_on: "Rakesh told me that the new program tuned down the peak current for better battery range. It may be 1-2 amps less peak current, but still very response"
I gave Rakesh some feed back on this last year that I thought level 1 gave too much assist and that I was never using any of the upper ranges. If I needed more assist to climb a short hill I just used turbo mode. So I'm not going to tinker with any adjustments after installing new flash. We'll see what it runs like first. Still snowing here in MN so getting out is tough.
I'm almost 65 and don't need speed. My wife and I love running at a pace of 12-16mph. I would like to get a distance of about 60 miles with my 12ahr battery. Currently its around 35-40 miles. (She's in great shape 8 years younger and has no assist) It would also be great if I could use a real fast charger while stopping for an hour or so of lunch. I haven't seen any solutions here on that or do I know if you can do that. Hope battery power is the same as last year Bike_On. I did top it off every month over the winter. Did a run of 75 miles last fall saving the battery for those dreaded hills. Charged that battery at noon for an hour plus a long down hill run back into Duluth using renen gave me enough battery to climb that last 1 block hill. Needless to say I was beat but felt good.
Does that new console have a darker font now. Could you elaborate on the changes/additions a little more. I like the instant regen button idea I use regen lots to slow the bike down on steep hills. It seems like just a little bit of regen after the battery is dead will give you a quick spike to climb one last short hill. After that the battery is truly dead. I'll be able to test that more this summer.
Curiously Did some reading on other brands and new posts on kits and pricing and still would buy a Falco again. I wanted a system that just worked. No burnt up wires/controllers or hub gears failing. So far no problems. Support has been good.
I Love my Falco
Oh one suggestion to other posters. I will the example of Cogging or no cogging multiple posts and false advertising. It's a pain to wade through all these what I will call argumentive post. Could a new thread be started as Falco technical or something of the like and you could move your thoughts over there and then do a post back here if you have some factual data. You can then argue to your hearts content and It would help to keep this forum cleaner. I've seen this done on other boards and I think it works great as some users make way too many posts. I want to know about good points and bad points of the system from people in the know. Not from someone who doesn't even own the system.
IMHO
Tom

Tom,
I got in the new Console and programmed my motor.

Good news:
Level 1-5 has a better power distribution. Level 1 is tamed down to about 150W. This was just (1) test ride around the block, in the dark, but using a CA. Level 5 gives full power. The other levels are suppose to have targeted current levels that they clamp to and limit the current. This seem correct, but need more time to verify.

Also, the back light is now GREEN and much , much better. The new console has an on/off switch on the back to save battery. It is the same shape. They added an improved mounting attachment, similiar to the CA where the clamp wraps around the bars, screws tight, and locks.

Regen: Yes, one button regen! Just push the (-) button and you get regen. Let go and it returns to pedelc mode at the level set.

Power on goes into level 5, with no speed limit. I would think 3 is enough with 1200 watts of thrust on a fresh charge. It's a little perkey if you are not ready for it.

ODO. It looks like the odometer is working in tenths instead of whole miles now. I don't know if that is good or bad news.

V/Amps/WHr/Ahr displays - it is suppose to auto scroll through these. I saw volts and amps, but haven't seen any Watts or whr yet. :?

Bad NEws:
The Text /numbers for voltage/power and ODO is still small.

 

[Tominfaribo]

Rakesh is a man who listens:
My feed back to him last year.
I thought the assist levels 1-5 should be changed. I had suggested auto scrolling on some items to save clutter on the screen. I hated the mounting bracket. Wanted 10ths of miles. (10ths of miles will give the non technical person the feedback on whether he has the wheel size programmed right.) It is also necessary for workout feedback. Not to mention improving readability of the screen. I also recommended some type of instant regen. I use it all the time on steep hills and now I be able to use it any time for slowing down.
Needless to say I'm excited for these changes.
Things I think I didn't get. Let it be known I'm one happy camper and not complaining.
I also wanted Time and Temp scrolling like the Banks do LOL and a trip mile reset that would be your main view on miles. I could then keep tabs on where the battery is at to miles ridden on that trip. Do some mental computing on battery usage while I'm riding. Total overall miles I felt could be key stroke accessible and hidden.
Thank You Rakesh for the updates and thank you Bike_on for your feedback. Now I need that new console. LOL

 

[d8veh]

Weeks have passed since we asked for a simple spin test that takes less than a minute to do. Still no results. I think we can now assume that it doesn't spin.

 

[ALLVLTS]

Pardon my still-mostly-lurker-status self for interrupting this truly epic thread, but I figured I'd jump in for a moment since I have great interest in the subject of debate. Hopefully my in-between position can add a useful point of view. (I'm far from an ignorant joe-public sheep, but I haven't finished or even ridden an ebike yet).

-Seriously, what took you guys so long? A lot of time passed between the original claims and the start of the focused interrogations.
I didn't have enough knowledge at the time to pick up a torch or pitchfork, so I waited silently in the shadows. However, nothing of consequence was happening so I had given up waiting for the slaughter a long while ago and I forgot to subscribe so I missed this from about page 4 until now, but I just caught up. I'm so glad the beast finally made itself known to the angry townsfolk.

-Did anyone see this vid posted by Falco on page 4?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo_zotTo9pE&feature
Oh, nevermind. It looks like regen may have been active because the voltages jump up on spin-down. If that's the case, I guess it doesn't help much.

-My take on the resistance issue is this: Falco made a misleading claim, making it sound like there is no pedaling resistance while in motion (which I never believed in the first place). However, FalcoeMotors was called on this, and he unceremoniously admitted that it was only referring to starting off. Still, while saying 'zero resistance to pedaling' might be sort of true if you clarify that it isn't during sustained motion... no effort seems to have been made to clarify that, either in the product literature or even in the subsequent posts in this thread. That is marketing BS and I hate it as much as the next guy. It's a big turn-off (the marketing BS, not the pedaling resistance... I actually care very little about that for my intended use). I agree with others... Marketing is fine, but BE HONEST (and yes, that means more than just "don't flat-out lie").

-This does seem to be a very well engineered and quality-built product with an awesomely integrated design, and not piecemeal cheap China junk. That is why I'm interested in it, not because of the misleading marketing fluff.
For those of you who argue that you can get better performance for less... that can be said about every single type of consumer product on the market anywhere. You're coming from a DIY hot-rodding point of view, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm a hot rodder too, but not every product has to be 100% DIY on-the-cheap super hi-performance awesomeness. As always... Fast, Reliable, Cheap. Pick two. There are also variations on the particular aspects (Efficient, Easy, etc)... but pick two. This one leaves 'cheap' out of the equation, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as it does well at the others. Furthermore, I think that the current ebike paradigm of dirt cheap low quality Chinese products has clouded the minds of much of the community. I don't just mean the products that come regularly DOA that are risky to even buy, I mean everything that carries a moderate risk of it failing within a reasonable service life under normal use. You've gotta admit... The vast majority of all present and past ebike products fit those descriptions perfectly. I'm not exactly rich, but I feel that most ebike parts and kits are laughably inexpensive and these Falco kits are priced very reasonably for anything that holds itself to a reasonable standard. I'm really glad that we're starting to see higher standards being set in many areas.

-I don't like 'trade secrets' either. However, I do see the point in not divulging every detail right off the bat. It really is a dog-eat-dog world in business, and there are obviously a lot of shady 'businesses' out there regularly scouring the world for an opportunity to snatch up someones hard work and poorly copy it to make a quicker and easier buck... and therefore not only taking away from the creator's honestly earned profits, but sometimes causing the company to fold entirely. It's not just a theory and it's not a new concept... it actually happens... especially in this industry from what I've seen. The root of the problem lies in consumer demand to get everything cheaper and faster regardless of how it affects anyone else.
On the flip-side, many inventors/engineers/designers love to exploit this issue and justify locking down every piece of information possible so they can rake in every last penny for years and years to come, at the expense of knowledge that could be used for the betterment of mankind as a whole.
I think that there is a fine line between the two, and from what I've read, it seems like Falco may be on the reasonable side of it, but it's hard to tell from the interwebnetz sometimes.
Just something to think about.

Keep up the good discussion and bring on the test data! This is as informative as it is entertaining. Just don't get too pitchfork-happy. Unlike most new ebike fly-by-night companies (or very 'optimistic' individuals), these guys seem legit with a good quality product, just in its early stages still.
Falco, please just be fully honest with claims and forthcoming with reasonably requested data. I really do wish you the best of luck!

 

[the_dude]

This thread is awesome. I bought a Falco 500w kit two weeks ago after lurking on here for more than 2 months and doing quite a bit of research. It was the info in this thread that helped me decide on a Falco. Though honestly I was sold on the zero resistance pedaling and didn't realize that isn't totally the case from reading this thread until after i purchased (I don't lurk every day...).

So I did my own test this morning. My wife and I bought Trek 7100 bikes at the same time so I did a spin down test of her bike against my Falco equipped bike from approximately 20 mph. I will post video once I figure out how to splice a few clips from my Iphone together.

There is a huge difference between the Falco spin down (very quick) and my wife's stock bicycle (takes forever to spin down). Technically the greater mass of the trek motor gives it more moment of inertia over my wife's bike so if it was truly zero resistance pedaling it would spin longer once at speed but does not.

I will contrast that with the fact that my wife and I rode to dinner last night, she on her stock bike and me on my Falco equipped bike. I rode my bike with the battery/motor turned off and a short ride to dinner (just under 2 miles each way) at my wife's comfortable riding speed in the 14-15ish mph range (I have a bike computer) I couldn't tell much difference in how my bike rode with the Falco than before. I am used to commuting 3 days a week to work for between 20-34 miles round trip for the past 3 months so I am in much better cycling shape than her.

Now back to video editing...

 

[K-80-123]

I have purchased the 750 Watt Motor from Falco and battery, I am going to install on a Specialized Epic MTB. Will share with the group once the installation is complete.

 

[the_dude]

Ok I've uploaded a free spin test video.

[youtube]PF7FHsSgEBo[/youtube]

There are four sections to the video. All free spin tested done from approx 20 mph.

1) Stock Trek 7100 Hybrid = approx 53 seconds.
2) Falco wihtout battery tested twice = approx 6 and 7 seconds.
3) Falco with battery connected and on PAS set to zero = approx 8 seconds.
4) Falco with battery connected and on, PAS set to zero and left motor plate screws loosened two turns = approx 15 seconds.

I did the 4th test after discovering how much easier the wheel turned when I loosed the motor plate. Not sure of the underlying cause yet.

My initial impression after doing these tests was a bit of disappointment until I remembered how even the tiniest drag on a bike wheel will dramatically reduce the free spin time. I do think the Falco is pretty easy to pedal given how easy it was to spin it up to 20 mph by hand for the free spin test and my ride last night without the battery on where I cruised at 14-15mph no problem.

I would love to compare this against one of the other motors as suggested earlier in the thread.

PS I've only installed the Falco kit yesterday so I'm still gathering first impressions. I did take it on a 26 mile ride today with an average speed per my bike computer of 19.75mph and using pedal assist +1 with the torque sensor mode. Bike computer average speed doesn't account for time with the bike at a standstill. Most of my time was cruising at 23-25mph but it is amazing how few stop lights it takes to drop your average down even when you are only counting the slowing down and accelerating part. Battery lasted the whole ride although towards the end it was unable to provide full power. I was still able to do 20+ mph even at the end though. Resting voltage at the end was 33 volts.

 

[Imaleone]

Been a snooper on this crazy thread for a while now and what has been debated regarding Falco has interested me. I own a Falco 750W motor and 36V, purchased it before reading this thread. if there is a better motor out there do tell? I have not had a lot of experience with E bikes in general, Have never owned one before this. I am confused regarding all the technical talk of field breakdown, core loses, and slightly follow the debate over torque curves related to time duration, startup, amperage draw and free wheel spin down and anti drag specifications. I don't see what the debate is? I have no experience, as most people breaking into the E bike market probably and feel that there will be more first time buyers the more flexibility in markets provides. I did not believe Falcos claim to be able to reach 30 MPH speeds with 36 volt 11.6Ah setup, This did however spur interest... I don't consider that false advertising. I think its someones claim, I have the console that is capable however i can not break 20MPH. I am not disappointed as i am sure the motor is capable. I am communicating with the company that has agreed to let me download a console program and use there interface. How many products allow that?
Points for Falco
-front wheel setup ( crank sensor allows for a 2WD bike) ( i have a rear planetary gearbox )
-wireless console
-YES "easy" freewheel ( i bike a lot and this was important)
-flexible system

The www.ebikes.ca site has the only other setup that would have worked for me, Bionix was to, however they were not flexible enough

 

[Imaleone]

@ the_dude
Hey nice setup. I wish i could use the torque converter, but front hub is a no go. I could buy a torque sensing crank arm maybe? hows that sensor work for you ? are you able to maintain a steady cadence in like 7th gear without having motor overtake? where you feel like shifting up? Currently i have only done a few rides with my setup. I have done an approximately 26 mile ride in assist 4 and 5 with enough power to keep going and battery drop to 33-34V. My crank sensor is an all or nothing assist in direct relation to level 1-5. Strange my level 1-4 maintains 16MPH tops straight through, however 5 maintains 20-21MPH.? I have spoken to Falco and actually like others on this thread want less assistance in level 1-2....