Fast dual X5 true or not?

[Doctorbass]

Would you believe this guy?

did you heard about?

I guess it's not based on a bicycle.. maybe motorcycle frame...no pedal

I guess it's near Vancouver?

Justin just wrote to me today about a guy went to his store yesterday claiming he did 117km/h with his dual X5 setup!

We had a customer come into our store yesterday who claims to have clocked 117 kph using dual 5300 series hub motors, one front and one rear.

Justin

 

[icecube57]

Nope... unless he came from money...And had top of the line everything. I need video proof and not a miscalculating bike speedo. Maybe if he ran two differently wound motors... one for torque to get up to speed then the high speed takes over and helps him him the rest of the way... on a super light frame 5AH worth of A123 at 100+v
i kinda think its cheating... DOC you are trying to work with what you got the best way possible whether you throw current or volts or the Delta WYE setup... Unless he is knows something we dont know you will probably be the only one to be able to get to 117+ with one motor in a rational setup.

 

[Link]

117km/h is "only" 72MPH. That takes like...what...10kW to do on your average bike? Considering Doc's hitting that much on a single motor, I don't find it at all hard to believe someone could do it on two.

 

[Kurt]

on a super light frame 5AH worth of A123 at 100+v

On flat ground weight really only affects acceleration. There would be a little more drag/friction between the road and tyre with the extra weight pushing down on it but that's about it. Wind resistance is your biggest problem and it just takes pure HP to overcome it.

Kurt.

 

[will_newton]

i kinda think its cheating...

that makes no sense, at what point past putting a power system on a bike does it become "cheating" no pedals? a buncha batteries? he paid too much? or he doesn't have as many posts on endless-sphere as you? :wink:

 

[icecube57]

look im not jealous or anything that is suicidal and I cant live with that but like i said. You are throwing money at a problem. If he can really do 117k why isnt he gloating about it on here. Not many people just go out and buy to x5 motors without doing their research and asking question. How come justin didnt point him to this forum and tell him to share his experience on here.. Im sure he was just as surprised and baffled as we are.. Yeah it could be dont on the flats easy probably. But even a 5302 could barely do it wheels of the ground. at 100v and 100A. So until i see more information im just going say its a wet dream in the making. I can believe 40-50-60 perhaps but 70 ... thats when u start using motorcycle frames... i can hear those wheel bearings cursing now. I also meant cheating in the aspect of we keeping true to pushing the limits of one motor before say screw it. We have already had one person to hit 92km. There are very few of us that have ran two motor builds. I know doc even consider two motors methods considered two motors.... but its not rational might as well get a motor cycle. To meet the power needs of two x5 isnt easy. Unless its small discreet used for drag only less than 5AH using a123 but its not going to be a bike that you can take from the drag strip to work next day.

 

[Link]

I know doc even consider two motors methods considered two motors.... but its not rational might as well get a motor cycle.

I considered two motors. Still am, but...you know...money.

 

[icecube57]

Im not going to even lie. Ive considered adding a Golden Rear to go with my Golden Front. But yeah "Money" id rather throw my money at some batteries and a controller to up my voltage before I add a second motor... the more speed ill get from the upgrade will cure my want for a second motor.

 

[paultrafalgar]

If you can't afford the cost of the ambulance you'll need to follow you everywhere at 117kph then you don't need 2 motors!

 

[curious]

I can believe it from the power prospective but it is really pushing the bike frame towards this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRDRzMWIsg

OTOH dual X5 will make a nice full speed AWD scooter . Kind of thinking along these lines but need to find a good looking donor scooter and learn welding first .

 

[Doctorbass]

This morning Justin contacted me and said that the guy name is Fayaz Kadir and that he was clocked 113kmh.. not 117... :?

he used 8kW total and dual 5300 motor. He is in vancouver this summer for work term and he is from the university of Waterloo...

Go Google again...

Doc

 

[huskydave]

I think it is possible but... I have been north of 80km/h and my controller blew last year, I lost all use of one 36v lithium pack and I wasted a lot of money pushing the limits. If it is true both motors would be very hot after that run. If you run any x5 over 80v you are pushing it imo. I would believe it if he had batteries that had 80+ volts each pack and were supplying two 50+ amp controllers (maybe) but that type of setup would be so heavy, one pothole would kill you. It would be about a 200lb bike. From my experience when you go over 80km/h it takes A LOT OF POWER TO GAIN MORE SPEED. I don't think it would be too hard to hit 100km/h or 60mph if you had 4000-5000 invested in your bike. I pushed the limits last year and I regret it. I have the only ebike in my city that can go 30kms-60kms a day and I was pushing it past what it was designed to do. The guys at the bikeshops were in awe when I made 80km/h-85km/h runs past their store but something broke every time I wanted to test the limits which made me and ebikes look bad, This year I run a 50-60v x5 and I let newcomers try my bike with the amperage limited and they get to see a reliable bike that can hit 60km/h all day long and go 60km range. With my upgraded front fork the bike can go over Most obsticles no problem. Imo to hit that speed you would need about 200v supplied through two powerfull controllers.

 

[huskydave]

I will add this: I was foolish and wanted a (power) bike. I bought a x5 and spent over 1000 dollars on lithium batteries from ebikes.ca. Guess what they were supposed to be 12ah batteries they cut out at 9ah each. I bought a 48a digital crystalyte controller (great controller by the way 4110 mosfets) Two wrenches could not hold back a 5304 and with rear motor and batts on the back would wheelie every time I hit the throttle! this aluminum bike I bought spun wires. Ok buy new bike buy new motor now Im hitting 80km/h again lasted about 2 weeks before I blew a bms + all my expensive lithium cells shorted. I am now out $600.00 + motor $500.00 and luckily ebikes.ca honoured their warranty but it was not worth the risks I was taking and they don't sell lifepo4 for a reason it caused problems the bms cut out on takeoff @ times but the cells themselves could handle stupid amounts of current. I know when things worked well the bike would do 85km/h on flat ground but when plugging them into the controller the massive spark would short the bms every time and my cycle analist is fried, It fades out over 50v now. I see doctorbass and steveo and I remember my troubles as they keep frying electronics this year, Please back off a bit run 80v@50A and you will have a nice powerfull ebike that is reliable all day long. Oh and the 5303 is wayyyyy faster than the 5304 by the way boys + at lower speeds it seems to use less power as their is less jump off the line. + I hit almost a volt per km/h up to 80km/h im only 130 lbs though.

 

[Doctorbass]

huskydave, I run 100.8V 105A everyday :wink:

never had any problem.. My motor take peak of 8650W (a 5305) and can hold 6000W for two minute without reaching the 150 celsius critical limit.

I really think that at 100V 100A on a 5303 with a LOW PROFILE ebike ( 20" wheel) and fairings i'll get that speed i want.

in fact having LOW PROFILE ebike help alot!! cause all that power i'll need to reach that speed is near only fight by the wind.. so less wind turbulence less power... or more power to go faster again!

Doc

 

[huskydave]

I can trust you, but we both know that after 80km/h it takes 125+v and 50a+ to get past 85 km/h with 1 x5303 hint hint... to get 100k/h + you would almost need double what I had. I think it can be done with enough batteries/controllers but it would require 2x 50a+ controllers 2x x5303 motors and 2x 100v battery packs to get those numbers. In my honest opinion to get close to that speed in real numbers on GPS You would require a LOT of power ie 175v+ and on most bike frames it would be very dangerous.

 

[Doctorbass]

I can trust you, but we both know that after 80km/h it takes 125+v and 50a+ to get past 85 km/h with 1 x5303 hint hint... to get 100k/h + you would almost need double what I had. I think it can be done with enough batteries/controllers but it would require 2x 50a+ controllers 2x x5303 motors and 2x 100v battery packs to get those numbers. In my honest opinion to get close to that speed in real numbers on GPS You would require a LOT of power ie 175v+ and on most bike frames it would be very dangerous.

Steveo used a single 5304 on 133VDC 40A and reached 92km/h

Volt mean nothing.. it's all about power ( volt x amp)

The motor winding determine the KV.. so to get that power i need, if the kv make it needing less volt for the same speed, it will just draw more amps...

And.. i'll have more amps!.. 100-150A... My battery pack is capable of 480A for 10sec...and 240 continuous ( A123) and weight 10kg...

I canculated everything and i'm confident. usually every predicted speed i canculate reflect reality when i test :wink:

One motor can take all that power
two motor would add 25 pounds !!! and make the system like 10% more efficient...only

Doc

 

[huskydave]

92km/h is a farcry from 113km/h. If I wanted to go over 100 I would build a streamliner. When you start going 60mph+ aerodynamics plays a big part. I don't think it would be hard with a low profile trike they have a lot less drag than an ordinary bike.

 

[Doctorbass]

we will see


This ebike did officially 58.6mph with 1000W motor, SLA+ nicad battery:http://www.electrobike.com/Events/Events.html

I'll use the same low profile.. but 8 time the power.. do the math :wink:

Doc

 

[dogman dan]

The real question is what was he drafting when he set that speed. Safe's gone now, so I'll be the one to point out that with a huge sprocket, a long long way to get going, and a big huge moving wall in front of you, people have PEDALED speeds like that. So that's what, 250 watts? I'd bet money that the guy was behind a good size truck or van when he set that record, drafting at a distance of inches. Of course that's crazier that just riding that fast. The other possibility is that he did it in a place where he could have a 50 mph tailwind. Then he'd only have to push 30 mph worth of air out of the way.

 

[Doctorbass]

I recently spokes few times with Fayaz and also asked him if i can share our discussion here and he agreed

Here is what we talked:

Monday, May 25, 2009 9:20 PM

Hello Stephane, Justin asked me to say HI .He probably told you about the 113kmph ride. It was somewhat a test run. Let me tell you the story behind it. I am a 2nd year undergrad student of University of Windsor. You do know that SAE undertake races among universities. The types of races they hold are BAJA, Formula1, SuperMileage, etc etc.. The newest one that they have introduced is FormulaHybrid, which is the same as Formula racing, except that vehicles get their power from electrical motors. I joined the the FormulaHybrid Team when I was in first year. From then we have men experimenting with 3 phase to 17 Phase Motors to check for their efficiency, power to weight ratio, torque per amps, rpm vs torque, etc etc. During that time we also bought two Crystalytes, powered by 4 LiMn prismatic batteries at 72V 20Ah, on a Walmart bought dual suspension cycle. that was capable of around 70km/h (we never measured the speed exactly).Until recently, using NiCad Cells,A123 cells from dewalts and LiMn at 144V, with Two Crystalytes x5303 on 20"rim ,with seperate Controller and two twist throttle. The experiment was on the Huron Church highway at Windsor. The reasoning in using two motors at tandem was to reduce the power draw on each individiual motors. You also have probably noticed the coils heating up pretty rapidly at around 3-4kW.Our peak power draw was 8.4kW, with a amp draw of 78A, at reduced voltage of 139V. So individual power draw of each motor was half the value that I stated. We didnt use Y-Delta switiching, as this would lead to higher amperage draw, also with reward of excess speed. That was when we reached 113.7km/h ( which we saw from the GPS and Speedo of the Corvette z06, my lab assistant's car). That was the first and last run, as we realised the danger of that speed. First of all, NO tread was left from brand new tires, Smallest cracks on the roads are able to bend the neck of the front forks, and slight bumps also caused me to be airborne from the seat for a second. It took 19.32 Seconds to come to a stop. BUT IT WAS FUN ! Our project stopped there, as we got more involved in the FormulaHybrid Project, where the front wheels have been fitted with a customised Crystalyte X5, where excess steel has been CNC-ed off. The rear wheels are powered by a 10kW chain driven motor attached to limited slip differential. Now if you ask me about technicalities, I probably know little less than you. As most work was done by the 3rd and 4th year students in the group. And I was being introduced in to using Microcontrollers, Voltage Control, Amp Control, UltraCaps, etc etc. But you can always ask if you have any question. If I cant answer then now, I will try to reply in the next Winter when I will have more courses and knowledge under my grasp. Btw, most if the resources are funded by the University profs, and a little bit of fund raising. Oh my God, I have just spent half an hour writing the mail ! My Supervisor is going to kill me if I dont submit the report that he gave me I am at work now Talk to you soon. Fayaz Kadir

Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:15 PM

I don’t remember the model number exactly, but it was bought of digikey. I was something IRfP4686 or IRFP4668. With a 200V and 130A limit. Other than that, all other specifications were the same as the 4110. Till now we haven’t burned any of them. Ok ok maybe 7 were fried J I was just checking how high a voltage it can tolerate J

Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:32 PM

Hello Stephane,

Yes you can post parts of the email on the site.
Btw, recently I bought a nine Continent Motor. My main aim is to have a ebike, that is light weight, pretty discrete, and 1.5kW.

People say that NineContinents make a lot of noise, but its rather tiny. I like it because it adds a bit of noise to the experience. Main point of a front wheel NineContinent is that I can easily take it apart from the cycle when not needed.

I travel frequently, so having a 27lb x5305 was not an option. X408 was a bit under powered. Whereas the 9 continent provides me with the best power to weight ratio, with the expense of a bit of noise.

Today I am going to Justin’s place to return a pack of NiCd that he gave me. I accidentally dropped the pack when the cycle was going down a long negatively sloped road. I was testing the regeneration capabilities of the stock setup, and the difference in gained energy while the battery is full and empty. Highest amps regenerated was 10.37Amps before the battery fell off ! I was travelling 47kmph with a no suspension bike, tyres at 85PSI (rock hard, inorder to reduce rolling resistance). The battery rolled atleast 150feet ! When I picked it up, it was spewing out gases and was as hot as hell. The plastic shrinkwrap melted

The picture of the cycle is attached. It’s a $219 WalMart Cycle. I am going to colour the spokes and the motor black, so that it become a little more deceptive.
The zip-ties holding the wire in the middle bar came of, I will actually Drill holes into the frame possibly to hide the wires as much as possible. I love the look of the A2B bike.

Btw, how well does the Nine Continent Handle power at 72V ? The whole cost of the setup was around $570, which is much lesser if I had bought the X5 J. Now I need to buy the batteries. Justin is sending me two E-bikekit.com LiFepo4 battery to test. Lets see what happens

Have a nice Day J Its raining today in Vancouver… I love the rain

Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:43 AM

Hi Stephane, I dont have much pictures with me now. All the pictures are on myharddrive at Windsor, Ontario. Whereas I am in Vancouver for SummerIntership. The picture I have attached was shot on the Fall of 2008. On the picturethe cycle contains 4 Li-Mn Batteries 36V, 2 in series supplying power toeach motor through individual Controllers. This year we are concentrating more in Regen braking. This will be appliedin SAE FormulaHybrid project. In short, during braking, the battery willbe cut off, all the charges will be stored in the Ultra Cap. Duringdischarge, the DC power of ultracaps will be converted to AC,pumped up toa safe voltage through variable transformer, turned back to DC, and Theneither it will charge the battery or aid the battery in supplying power tothe motor. Right now we are dealing with minimizing power loss and assessing theusefulness of the setup, as the Ultracaps are a bit on the heavy side. btw, its nice to see you posting videos on Youtube. The videos are reallynice. Especially the Garmin one, which made me almost fall of my chair. Ragards, Fayaz

I suggested to this guy to come here and join us and sharing experiences and fun! he seems a nice guy.. and Justin agreed as well with that.

 

[steveo]

Hey Doc

It weird because just yesterday i was thinking about doing dual golden motor setup with 16" wheel in star/delta mode lol!!! but using alot less voltage..

Did you say this guy is going to school in university of windsor .. in ontario? .. this guy is not to far from me if this is the case!!

Its times like this i miss my 133v setup lol..

I've been beating my my irfb 4568 mosfet controller at 125amps steady with my x5 .. still going strong .. motor running reasonable cool with the cooling holes

-steveo

 

[Link]

It took 19.32 Seconds to come to a stop.

LMMFAO

Seriously? I mean, I know that's fast, but still...need better brakes, much?

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Doc

It weird because just yesterday i was thinking about doing dual golden motor setup with 16" wheel in star/delta mode lol!!! but using alot less voltage..

Did you say this guy is going to school in university of windsor .. in ontario? .. this guy is not to far from me if this is the case!!

Its times like this i miss my 133v setup lol..

I've been beating my my irfb 4568 mosfet controller at 125amps steady with my x5 .. still going strong .. motor running reasonable cool with the cooling holes

-steveo

Yes, this guy is from the Ontario.. probably near you! :wink: ( think i'll have two person to beat now.. )

you said 125A??!! oh!!! I see power !!!!

in few days i'll receive many stuff!!

18 fets crystalyte

18 fets Infineon controller

new 5302 ( trade it for the 5304 i should receive soon)

my 2x 24s BMS from Gary

40 little BMS direct from theold setup of the KILLACYCLE (880cells)

that will be like christmass!!

hmmm two 5302 with two 18 mosfet controller at 150A each + 100V A123 cells would be just... hmmmmm.... can't find the right word to describe!!!

the advantage of the 5302 is that what limit his speed is not voltage.. it's current!!.. cause at full current ( 180A the predicted speed is 82mph!!! .. 6mph from the 88mph of bttf !!!

The simulator JAva that SWbluto did is just perfect!! every real world test i did with my setup and that i compared with simulation is close to +/-2% error from the bmax speed i got!!!

do you have it?

 

[steveo]

Yes, this guy is from the Ontario.. probably near you! :wink: ( think i'll have two person to beat now.. )

you said 125A??!! oh!!! I see power !!!!

in few days i'll receive many stuff!!

18 fets crystalyte

18 fets Infineon controller

new 5302 ( trade it for the 5304 i should receive soon)

my 2x 24s BMS from Gary

40 little BMS direct from theold setup of the KILLACYCLE (880cells)

that will be like christmass!!

hmmm two 5302 with two 18 mosfet controller at 150A each + 100V A123 cells would be just... hmmmmm.... can't find the right word to describe!!!

the advantage of the 5302 is that what limit his speed is not voltage.. it's current!!.. cause at full current ( 180A the predicted speed is 82mph!!! .. 6mph from the 88mph of bttf !!!

The simulator JAva that SWbluto did is just perfect!! every real world test i did with my setup and that i compared with simulation is close to +/-2% error from the bmax speed i got!!!

do you have it?

Hey Doc

I can't wait to see your bike on the road .. all the right electronics combinded with the perfect battery pack will be deadly.

If you could send me a copy of the simulator that swbluto just to play around with it would be great!

Doc i had a bms avaliable thats about 90% finish i could of sold you!

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

Yes, this guy is from the Ontario.. probably near you! :wink: ( think i'll have two person to beat now.. )

you said 125A??!! oh!!! I see power !!!!

in few days i'll receive many stuff!!

18 fets crystalyte

18 fets Infineon controller

new 5302 ( trade it for the 5304 i should receive soon)

my 2x 24s BMS from Gary

40 little BMS direct from theold setup of the KILLACYCLE (880cells)

that will be like christmass!!

hmmm two 5302 with two 18 mosfet controller at 150A each + 100V A123 cells would be just... hmmmmm.... can't find the right word to describe!!!

the advantage of the 5302 is that what limit his speed is not voltage.. it's current!!.. cause at full current ( 180A the predicted speed is 82mph!!! .. 6mph from the 88mph of bttf !!!

The simulator JAva that SWbluto did is just perfect!! every real world test i did with my setup and that i compared with simulation is close to +/-2% error from the bmax speed i got!!!

do you have it?

Hey Doc

I can't wait to see your bike on the road .. all the right electronics combinded with the perfect battery pack will be deadly.

If you could send me a copy of the simulator that swbluto just to play around with it would be great!

Doc i had a bms avaliable thats about 90% finish i could of sold you!

-steveo

Hey Steveo, here is the link ( you must have Java installed on your computer)

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6892&p=119810#p119810



Abouty the BMS, thanks for the offer!.. I already ordered 3x 24s from gary ( the new v2.5)

Just a question.. how did it cost to you for one ( only for the BOM total price?)

it is like 111$cad for one single 24s at mouser !! :|

Doc