Fat noob wants advice.

zydeco

10 mW
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
27
Location
South Mississippi
I have been reading this forum for days. I still am not sure what route to choose. I am buying/building an ebike. I have a few ideas but want input as this is a significant investment for me. I weigh 280lbs and I am short. I am in terrible shape. I also live 14 miles from civilization. The good news is that it is mostly flat where I live. I need to be able to move 280-300lbs 28 miles with little or no peddling. I prefer an upright riding position. My budget is $3K. I like cargo bikes. I do not need to go faster than 20mph but wouldn't mind going up to 30mph. I live right next to a brand new highway with a bike path that 30 would be safe on. If you were in my shoes what bike would you buy/build? Can it be done reliably for $3k?
 
Reasonable expectations and very doable budget. Flat terrain I'd go with a DD (direct drive) wheel motor. Look over the cargo builds around here and see if something sparks an interest?

Welcome to the forum and world of eBikes!
 
Lots of ways to go, as you probably know if you've been looking around here already. Your goals should be do-able with $3k, to meet your range a fair chunk of that will need to go towards batteries. I'd look at a 36 or 48V 20AH ping, or something with similar capacity. No need to spend big bucks on a direct drive hub motor or controller for a 20 mph build, I'm a fan of the ebikes.ca kits. Also, start with a decent bike with steel dropouts. A beefy-framed mountain bike, a down-hill bike if you can find one (they're usually sturdier with a long-travel front suspension fork), would be a reasonable place to start. A cargo bike would also be good and plenty sturdy. I recently traveled to the Netherlands and saw some awesome cargo bikes over there.

Have fun and post as you go along!
 
28 miles round trip is a serious haul. Perhaps consider a Yuba Mundo. It can mount a seat lower than many other common frames (buy a Thudbuster seatpost), and it can hold as much battery as you can afford.
"Factory longtail cargobikes"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32220

48V should be the minimum voltage you should consider, 72V may fit your budget but it will depend on the Ah size you end up needing. Perhaps a Lyen 12-FET controller that is CycleAnalyst ready. This will allow the CA to limit the amps based on what a temp probe reads out about how hot your motor is getting under load.
 
zydeco said:
I have been reading this forum for days. I still am not sure what route to choose. I am buying/building an ebike. I have a few ideas but want input as this is a significant investment for me. I weigh 280lbs and I am short. I am in terrible shape. I also live 14 miles from civilization. The good news is that it is mostly flat where I live. I need to be able to move 280-300lbs 28 miles with little or no peddling. I prefer an upright riding position. My budget is $3K. I like cargo bikes. I do not need to go faster than 20mph but wouldn't mind going up to 30mph. I live right next to a brand new highway with a bike path that 30 would be safe on. If you were in my shoes what bike would you buy/build? Can it be done reliably for $3k?


Hi and Welcome.

From my understanding, i thing you would need a battery of around 1500Wh of energy to get the 28 miles x2 at 20mph max( require around 500W) and still have few remaining energy.. that mean it could be a 72V 20Ah or a 37.5V of 40Ah ( the Wh are Ah time nominal volts volt....

or a 72VV 20Ah...

Since you dont really need really high power i wuld recommand the Ping battery they re great and plug and play and able to give you up to 2000W no prob for most of their battery. it could be 2 battery of 48V 15Ah too ( connected i parallel)
For the motor.. the crystalyte HT motor on a 26" wheel would be nice! and a controller of 48V and 30A would be perfect.

You can contact Justin at ebikes.ca he will help you fo ryour great project. Plus you can use the ebike simulator on their website: http://www.ebikes.ca

Good luck!
 
That was a really fast response guys thanks!

I should have been more clear about needed range. My total round trip is 28 miles. I have been staring at the Mundo for a few days now. I am seriously thinking about the Emundo bike with the 14ah upgrade and an extra battery. I don't know what the battery would cost as I have yet to get a reply to my emails at the site. I have no Idea if a ping battery would work with this bike. There are 3 factory built bikes I am considering. The last one looks less than comfortable to me.

This one is out of stock until further notice
http://www.juicedriders.com/odk/

This one I am waiting on a quote for spare battery
http://yubaride.com/yubashop/product.php?id_product=28

This one will sell me a spare battery for $650 but the bike looks uncomfortable to my build and I have no Idea where I would put the second battery.
http://www.rmartinltd.com/MiPower-p21.html

I like the idea of a grin kit on a mundo with a couple of big Ping batteries. However I am not sure how difficult it would be get the disk brake on a regular mundo. I am not sure if I need it either. I am off to read more from the links I was given. Thanks again guys for the fast thoughtful responses.
 
As before stated, 48v is more the standard today.

Don't believe the rediculios range they claim.

I like the last option, build it yourself with the proper paarts for your personal needs.

Doc says a Ht dd hub with Ping batts. Now all you need is a bike you like.

As also stated call Justin for help, he knows what you would need not what he wants you to have cause he wants to sell something. GREAT GUY!

Dan
 
Since you haven't started your build yet, I'll hop aboard and give you another option. Since your round trip is roughly 50 miles I'd think a recumbent bicycle could do the job of a cargo bike (i.e. trailer, or side panels). Not sure how your posture is now, but it may be screaming for comfort further into the future with your long upright commutes. :wink:
 
48v makes sense. The recumbent idea has gotten my attention however they are not cheap and you will see that the budget for the bike is shrinking fast.


2x 48V 15AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Packs= $1,274.00 this leaves $1726 in the budget.

I am having a little trouble locating "the crystalyte HT motor on a 26" wheel would be nice! and a controller of 48V and 30A would be perfect". I am looking at the direct drive kits but don't see the HT motor.

I actually sent an email to sales@ebikes.ca before I started this topic. I am eager for the response. Thanks again guys.
 
zydeco said:
I am buying/building an ebike. I have a few ideas but want input as this is a significant investment for me. I weigh 280lbs and I am short. I am in terrible shape. I also live 14 miles from civilization. The good news is that it is mostly flat where I live. I need to be able to move 280-300lbs 28 miles with little or no peddling.

As a fellow fat guy (6'8" and about 325 lbs.), but in pretty good shape overall, I recommend pedaling as much as you can manage, and using a bike that allows for and encourages that. You can fix the "in terrible shape" part, but not if you don't try.

The best kind of e-bike for your situation would be a Stokemonkey or similar homemade setup, which drives the cranks. The motor then benefits from the bike's gearing, and you benefit from the exercise, even if it's just "baby exercise" from your feet being carried around by the motor.

If you really and truly don't want to pedal and don't care about improving your physical condition, just get a 50cc scooter. It's cheaper and easier, it'll last a lot longer than an expensive battery, and you won't have to fuss with it to keep it running. Bicycles are for pedaling, and they don't make a lot of sense otherwise.

Chalo
 
Big people often need to pedal bow-legged due to having bigger thighs than skinny people. This can put strain on the knees and make pedaling uncomfortable or even painful.

These babies might be the best fifty bucks you ever spend on a bike http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/pedalspacers.asp

I often haul 600+ lbs; these are my essential ebike stats:
Motor: 9c 2812 DD motor in a 20" front wheel.
Battery: 2*36v,20Ah LifePo from Ping
controller: 40A 72v from ebikes.ca
Real mileage on mostly flat terrain: 35ish using ~40wh per mile @20 mph
Electrical budget: 3000 USD (includes $700 in import taxes into the EU)

Cheers
-T
 
Good call on the pedal spacers! I should have known something like that existed, but hadn't seen them before.

A few people may have misread the first post. 28 miles is the round trip distance. Slow to 15 mph and pedal lightly, and you'd make that distance on one 48v 15 ah pingbattery. That's about 700 usable watthours of battery.

But Doc has it dead on what you'll need to do it at 25 mph +. Since I weigh only 180, I can do the distance on about 800wh at 20 mph. But your weight will cost you some range. Eventually, if you faux pedal some, you might shave some of that weight. Suprising how much good exercise you can get just flapping the legs when the ride is that long. Great for your heart, exercise, but not ever to the point you lose your breath.

You'll spend half your budget on battery, another $300-500 on the motor kit, and have only $1000 for a cargo bike. Hope you can find one used, because your battery budget is going to make it tough to get a new surly or yuba mundo.

Are you handy with a welder? I made a nice cargo bike with a total budget of about $200. Two junk bikes and $100 to pay somebody to weld it? Of course, you have to like ugly for this.

Summary,

Two 48v 15 ah lifepo4 batteries. Pingbattery is the recomended vendor, but cheaper ones are there on ebay if you feel like throwing the dice. Sunthing is one example a few have bought from. Carry them in panniers. 48v 20 ah would do the trick though, if you commit to slow riding, and or could charge for an hour in town someplace.

One longtail bike

One direct drive hubmotor kit. Assuming you are from the USA by the use of MPH, Grin cyclery, E-bikekit, Amped bikes, Yescom USA are just a few of the vendors we trust. Overseas, Emissions free has a good dd kit. A stokemonkey type motor is a great suggestion, but unfortunately the only option for that sold right now would blow your budget. It's from Yuba.
 
Chalo,
I am glad to get some input from another heavy person. I bought a road bike a couple of years ago with dreams of getting back in shape and I didn't get around to really trying to use it until recently. In those couple of years I crossed an invisible line from chubby to debilitating obesity. A half mile walk leaves me in pain. A half mile bike ride makes my knees want to explode. I have every intention to pedal as much as I can. I also know that currently I can't pedal much at all. If I wind up 5 miles from home with no battery there is no way I can avoid calling somebody for help. Hopefully in a few months I will be able to use that road bike again.

Cargo_Tom,
Thanks for those spacers.

Right now I am wandering if I really need to go 48v instead of 36v. I really do not need to go fast. If 48v would be more efficient then I would understand. Is 48v somehow more efficient?
 
With a forum name like that, S. Louisiana I take it. I'm from Lafayette. You have plenty of budget, so it will be pretty easy. Forget a thru the chain drive, because what happens when you break down halfway to your destination? First, get a cargo bike. Then get good pair of front forks made for tandem bikes, and for ride comfort a big ass saddle and a Thudbuster seat suspension to both smooth the road for comfort and relieve the rear motor's axle from the impact stresses of guys like us put on the axle when the tire hits a bump. Then get 2 hubmotors, a front and a rear, along with torque arms for both. I'd suggest going with direct drive simply because with your wide open spaces you'll probably want more speed later, and they better handle increased voltage needed for more speed.

Motor selection is only important from the standpoint of speed, because with 2 you've reduced the load for each motor to see the same as if you were a 150lb cyclist type with a bike that weighs half as much. Use the Ebikes.ca simulator to find the right wind of motor that will get you 25mph on flat road using 36V.

You want programmable controllers, a pair of 12 fet controllers should do the trick, but talk Lyen into a discount for the second and get a pair of 18's and don't accept less than irfb 4110's mosfet, so you don't need to buy new ones later to go into the fun range of power. With a cargo bike space isn't such a premium, but choose one with nice low in the frame space for the batteries. Get them with regen, because bike brakes suck stopping a load like ours, and regen braking will reduce brake maintenance to a great extent. Get cruise control too, because holding the throttle in a fixed position sucks on long stretches. Also you'll want them Cycle analyst ready along with a pair of cycle analysts. You can get away with one CA, but 2 will aid in tuning the controllers to their best use.

Battery, and this is why I suggest 36V...get a pair of 20ah 36V batteries. I'd say Cellman or Ping. Then later your and put them in series for higher speed, giving you flexibility. That will give you the range you need with a good 20%+ comfort margin, which is needed, because lithium batteries last far longer when run conservatively, and what if you want to do something else on the way home? Plus a few years from now after battery capacity diminishes somewhat, you still hit your range. Regardless it's still good to charge at your destination to run your batteries that much more conservatively.

Torque arms, a 6 pack of beer at a local welding shop will get you something better than can be bought. They're mandatory and you need them for both motors. With regen especially, you want the clamping type that uses a bolt to firmly clasp the axle.

I'm sure theres something I'm forgetting, but it's a good start.

John
 
I am a big guy and I weigh around the 140kg mark and my daily commute is 50km all up with a charge at work. The trip I take is all flat on bike paths so we have similar need in bikes. My current ride is a 2008 Giant Talon with a 53v 20ah a123 pack and 9C 9x7 hub run by a lyne 12 FET controler. I ride this every day unless we have rain or it's just to cold and the bike has served me well and is as reliable as my car. To get the reliability carring a load requires a custom build in my books and the reason I am currently building a new ride is I just don't trust the aluminium frame under me. I looked long and hard for a good bike frame made from Cr Mo and settled on the Surle Troll http://surlybikes.com/bikes/troll/. This frame has horizontal rear drop outs for ease of fixing flate rear tyre and can take wide rubber which is needed for a soft ride with our weight. The tube size and welds look all good and at least I will know when the frame if ever is going to crack and fail. I like how the seat post is well supported and hate frame that have long fully extended seat posts. The triangle is very open for battery storage and there are brazed on lugs everywhere to mount racks.
One thing to consider is will you need suspension on the front or front and rear, on this build I ride on good paths and have gone no suspension at all just use the 2.5 wide Hookworms to soak up little bumps. It's one more area where I look at reliability and rather than spend big dollars on suspension forks that are heavy duty I will slow down a little and stick with rigid Cr Mo forks and put a 200mm disc that they are rated for.
Good luck you will love the freedom of Ebikes mate.
 
We started, or at least I did, talking about 48v because you mentioned 30 mph travel.

I think John has one thing right, start with the right bike, a nice longtail that can carry lots of you, and lots of battery no sweat. Lower your speed to 20 and 36v will be plenty. Two 36v 15's should do it, or ping could make a 36v 30 ah with the pack split in two. If the budget squeals too much, you can ride a bit slower home, after some charging in town.

I don't see the need for two motors, especially at 20 mph with few hills.
 
Have you checked out the Worksman Industrial Tricycles (Mover model)?

They are rated to hold 500 pounds.

I have one in my garage right now that I'm working on. Worksman also makes bikes that are rated for 500 pounds.

Industrial-Tricycle-M.jpg


I have a 36-volt SLA setup on it (not a good battery situation for you...you'll need better chemistry for your distance, although you could do it with SLA if you don't mind losing space on the rear platform for batteries).

I have the ebikekit.com hub motor on the front and the bike can carry me (185 pounds) and TWO kids (65-100 pounds each) without trouble. It's strong.

I love this tricycle. Obviously it doesn't have the abilities of a bike in terms of being able to park it easily, get through doors easily, etc., but it is extremely stable up to about 20mph. Any faster than that and you need to be in a straight line. I've gone 25mph in it before, but not around turns. I hit a tree doing that once while taking an S-turn. Hit the tree at full speed and the only damage was to the forks. Everything else did well.

In the pic above I had the silly idea (or not so silly) to use a small trash can to protect the battery and controller from rain. It worked great but I didn't like the look.
 
Kona makes good cargo bikes for the money http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=ute

This thing with some maxxis hookworm tires would be an affordable and bomber solution for your weight.
 
dogman said:
I don't see the need for two motors, especially at 20 mph with few hills.

Of course someone who weighs less and always helps his motor along by pedaling doesn't see the need for 2 motors. Put a 100lb in your backpack, and take your chain off and see how fun your bike is to ride. Then imagine going on one of your motor melting rides without the ability to pedal or walk back....The man needs more power, because power to weight ratio is everything. While a first ebike can be made absolutely dependable, how many succeed? A 2wd could be an a lifesaver in this case, since it's redundant systems backing each other up. He's got the budget and everyone who has tried 2wd swears by it.

Can a single ebike motor survive? Sure, but with a big load it would be strained and lacking in any fun quotient with a large person. That goes away with a second motor. In addition, since you've halved the load it's possible to turn each motor to a higher settings than you can a single motor, so the limits are higher than just double that of a single motor without the motor being stressed. Nothing shatters the common misconception of low performance for electric bikes than a fat guy on a zippy ebike, and it doesn't require high speed to do it, and in the worst case it's free in terms of energy usage per mile to do it with a second motor. Don't restrict the man to lackluster performance with one motor, and don't suggest a high powered ebike hubbie to overcome the shortfall due to axle issues with lighter guys that become far more likely with a 300lb load on the axle.

WRT to voltage and motor selection, a motor that can achieve a given speed at a lower voltage with the same wheel size is always capable of greater power, because it is wound with thicker copper and can handle more current. An example of a solution here is a 9C 2805 in a 26" wheel, which is capable of right at 30mph in a 26" wheel.
 
MikeFairbanks said:
Have you checked out the Worksman Industrial Tricycles (Mover model)?

They are rated to hold 500 pounds.

I have one in my garage right now that I'm working on. Worksman also makes bikes that are rated for 500 pounds.

Industrial-Tricycle-M.jpg


I have a 36-volt SLA setup on it (not a good battery situation for you...you'll need better chemistry for your distance, although you could do it with SLA if you don't mind losing space on the rear platform for batteries).

I have the ebikekit.com hub motor on the front and the bike can carry me (185 pounds) and TWO kids (65-100 pounds each) without trouble. It's strong.

I love this tricycle. Obviously it doesn't have the abilities of a bike in terms of being able to park it easily, get through doors easily, etc., but it is extremely stable up to about 20mph. Any faster than that and you need to be in a straight line. I've gone 25mph in it before, but not around turns. I hit a tree doing that once while taking an S-turn. Hit the tree at full speed and the only damage was to the forks. Everything else did well.

In the pic above I had the silly idea (or not so silly) to use a small trash can to protect the battery and controller from rain. It worked great but I didn't like the look.

I don't think a trike is the right solution for this gentleman, because I think he's looking at a road surface sloping to the right. Big weight up high and a trike leaning to the right is a recipe for disaster, and not comfortable either. A Worksman industrial bicycle though is a great solution. Too bad they don't offer a longer wheelbase cargo edition like Zydeco wants.

John
 
I agree, he needs a longtail not an adult trike that gets sketchy to ride above 15 mph.

I agree, dual motors would be good, very good. But no hills and few stops does make it easier for him to get by with one good one. Especially if he ends up building a 20-25 mph cruiser with 36v. I've never had a hubmotor fail that I wasn't doing bad stuff to. But yes, I am a lot lighter, and it does make a difference. Cruising 20 mph, I use only 400w, while I'm sure it will cost him 600w.

I just have no experience with hubmotors overheating when using 600w on the flat. When using 2000w on a hill yes, but cruising on the flat, no. His main result of the weight won't be frying his motor, but simply having a more sluggish acceleration if he uses a 20 amp controller.

A 36v 20 amp controller that works sensored or sensorless would be a good idea for reliability. That way he'd be protected from the only thing likely to go wrong in a single hubmotor.
 
The 2 motor idea makes sense to me however that budget isn't as big as it seems. I did go to the calculator and found the same motor you did John. Unless I am missing something I would need 2 kits basically. Between kits and batteries I would have little left for a bike.
2 motor kits relaced to 26inch wheels $1240
2 ping36v15ah $1147

leaves $613

I think this may be excessive on the AH though. The mundo is a $1200 bike. If I go down to just one battery I could swing it but then I would be risking a walk home.
 
I'd suggest starting with components that don't need to be upgraded later, even if that means leaving out a few desired items (at least at first). If a two-motor system sounds like it would make you the happiest, it still may be viable to start with a single rear motor that has an inexpensive temperature probe installed in the stator. Not terribly difficult to do yourself, but I'm told recently that cell_man will install a probe before shipping if you ask (for a very small fee).

Add a CycleAnalyst to a 12-FET and you can limit the amps to a level where motor heat is not an issue (or controller heat either).

A second motor/controller/battery can be added later. Concerning voltage...over time, it seems that everyone ends up wanting higher volts, even on a flat commute. Also, higher volts (even when combined with a lower-speed winding to keep the same top-speed) can result in needing fewer amps (good for lower heat, and easier on the battery).

But...each one of us has to decide what issues are of the most importance, concerning our preferences.
 
You have gotten some very good battery recommendations here based on years of ES member experience. These estimates can be a little elusive for the beginner so here's a bit of a battery SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) that might be helpful to fill in the blanks and let you jiggle numbers a bit yourself to do some 'what ifs'.

Starting with a projected average power consumption: 25Wh/mi is not unreasonable for what is being attempted and allowing for small hills, although somewhat lower might be required for a dead flat terrain + increased pedaling, and (obviously) considerably more for a frisky wrist on the throttle.,

So - using 25Whr/mi as a basis, assuming a 20% margin for battery deterioration over time and perhaps cold weather running, and using an 80% depth of discharge for good LiFePO4 life, we get an estimated energy requirement for your pack:

25Whr/mi x 28 mi x 1.20 (%safety margin) / 0.80 (%DOD) = 1050 Wh

We can get this much energy on board by trading volts and amps to dial in an effective packaging/cost solution. Trying out different packs with 12s or 16s configurations and assuming a mean cell voltage 3.2v over an 80% LiPO4 discharge cycle, we get:

for 12s: 1050 Wh / (12s x 3.2v/cell) = 1050 Wh / 38.4 v = 27.34 Ah (buy two 36v 15Ah packs)
for 16s: 1050 Wh / (16s x 3.2v/cell) = 1050 Wh / 51.2 v = 20.50 Ah (buy one 48v 20Ah pack or two 24v 20Ah packs)

Choose the packs based on packaging, etc. With a cargo bike the availability of two rear sideloaders makes the dual 24v packs attractive as a quickie solution. The higher voltage of the 24v packs will give you better speed options, a simple series connection, and so looks like a good choice. On the other hand, a 72v DD solution could be approached with the dual 36v 15Ah packs in series, again giving you the required 1050 Wh of capacity.

Here is a quick recalculation dropping the cold weather/aging safety margin and assuming a slightly lower consumption for pretty flat terrain:

21Whr/mi x 28 mi x / 0.80 (%DOD) = 735 Wh (very similar to Dr Bass estimate)
for 12s: 735 Wh / (12s x 3.2v/cell) = 735 Wh / 38.4 v = 19.14 Ah (buy one 36v 20Ah pack)
for 16s: 735 Wh / (16s x 3.2v/cell) = 735 Wh / 51.2 v = 14.35 Ah (buy one 48v 15Ah pack or two 24v 15Ah packs)

Anyhow - not much new here for recommendations, but maybe this will help you wrap your head around the advice here :)

As far as 2WD goes: remember that both motors need not be running at all times and are generally not needed on the flat. If you are concerned about redundancy, a small geared hub as a backup could be added that would normally not be in use. This would be primarily for a low powered 'limp home mode' and could be priced appropriately and added later in a phased build. The freewheel of a small gear motor will incur no drag penalty when you are running on the other motor. In any case, your best battery setup for two motors will be to share a common battery to optimize access to whatever power you are carrying along. I'm not pushing for a 2WD solution, but encouraging you to think creatively to fulfill your needs.
 
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