Fiat Chrysler pays millions...

[LockH]

Hehe... the "BMW Syndrome"?

Fiat Chrysler pays millions to settle emissions charges:
https://inhabitat.com/fiat-chrysler-pays-millions-to-settle-emissions-charges/

Starts:

Fiat Chrysler has reached a settlement with the Justice Department, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the owners of about 100,000 of their diesel-powered Jeep SUV’s and Ram pickups. After facing charges that the company had sold diesel vehicles in the United States that had improper software — allowing it to violate emissions rules — Fiat Chrysler has agreed to pay $800 million to settle the matter.

 

[Smoke]

I think you mean Volkswagen syndrome.

But that's really emissions standards so tight that the best clean deisel engines can't pass which is pretty damn stupid when you look at which vehicles a newly sold clean deisel would push out of the fleet.

Most emissions laws are stupid because there are lots of ways to reduce the emissions of older cars but places like California outlaw those methods which increases the cost of car ownership and keeps a lot of older and dirtier cars on the road (and dirty).

At this point, I think these regulations are all about political appearances rather than emissions because the only reductions are an illusion.

 

[Punx0r]

The cars were always capable of conforming to the required emissions standards, it was just deemed commercially advantageous to try and cheat the test instead.

The standards are not "stupid" and they do reduce urban air pollution, which is a serious health issue for millions of people.

 

[MJSfoto1956]

The standards are not "stupid" and they do reduce urban air pollution, which is a serious health issue for millions of people.

+1

Basically, they got caught with their pants down.

 

[spinningmagnets]

People who pay extra to get the diesel engine as an option have been polled to see why. The majority liked the high torque and good fuel mileage.

The mileage is improved by running lean, but doing that results in higher nitrides of oxygen / NOx.

The software was written to sense when the emissions are bring tested, and to run as clean as possible, then to run lean the rest of the time for better fuel mileage.

 

[billvon]

But that's really emissions standards so tight that the best clean deisel engines can't pass

They can pass with no problem - as proven by the software that _allows_ them to pass when they want to.

Most emissions laws are stupid because there are lots of ways to reduce the emissions of older cars

Yes, there are. One good way is to just let them all retire, and replace them with newer, cleaner cars. Another way is to tune up those old cars or convert them to electric power.

but places like California outlaw those methods

There is a place down the road here that will convert any old car to pure electric using used Tesla parts. No "outlawing" of them.

At this point, I think these regulations are all about political appearances rather than emissions because the only reductions are an illusion.

I first came to Los Angeles in 1978 as a kid. You could see the line where the smog began. Once you descended below the line, you immediately smelled the stink and visibility was reduced to a few miles.

Today, you can see the mountains on most days, and the smells of local taco places are stronger than the smells of exhaust.

It is most definitely NOT an illusion.

 

[LockH]

I think you mean Volkswagen syndrome.

Hehe... Oooops... correct. :lol:

 

[amberwolf]

I first came to Los Angeles in 1978 as a kid. You could see the line where the smog began. Once you descended below the line, you immediately smelled the stink and visibility was reduced to a few miles.

I went to KG & early gradeschool Huntington Beach until a couple years before that, and I remember me and my younger brother having (sometimes a lot of) trouble breathing in "sports", and him going to the hospital a few times. After we moved to Phoenix, we only really had problems during the dust storms.

 

[billvon]

I went to KG & early gradeschool Huntington Beach until a couple years before that, and I remember me and my younger brother having (sometimes a lot of) trouble breathing in "sports", and him going to the hospital a few times. After we moved to Phoenix, we only really had problems during the dust storms.

Yep. My wife's parents lived in LA in the 1980's. He got pretty serious asthma and went to the doctor. The doctor had a strong suggestion for treatment - "move."

 

[Smoke]

Los Angeles smog lags behind the emissions laws by about 10 years which is when enough of the older cars have been retired to see the difference.

Mid 90s emissions laws would be just fine in LA because most of the smog comes from lawn mowers and leaf blowers today.

Trying to reduce new car emissions is well in to diminishing returns if Los Angeles decides to keep mowing it's lawns.

The story I heard about VW cheating the test is that the clean tuning ran hotter and caused engine failures, reduced life span or something like that.

If the emissions laws were more reasonable the clean deisel would be cheaper and I could get something like the deisel Mazda 6 wagon which seems to be available everywhere else but "coming soon" for about 6 years here.

I'll go ahead and repeat that the current laws are stupid. They are ineffective at reducing smog and they don't allow the emissions of the fleet to drop except by old cars retiring or tremendously expensive EV conversions.

 

[Punx0r]

Diesel cars, such as the ones you are talking about, are common in many European countries. These countries also have high urban air pollution attributable to diesel exhaust, often above legal limits. Even a modern "clean" diesel puts out unacceptable particulate and NoX emissions. Petrol/gasoline cars are no saints but they are better.

 

[LockH]

Hehe... News from England from 2016...

UK air pollution 'linked to 40,000 early deaths a year':
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-35629034

Starts:

Outdoor air pollution is contributing to about 40,000 early deaths a year in the UK, say the Royal Colleges of Physicians and of Paediatrics and Child Health.

They say diesel emissions have been poorly controlled.

And indoor air pollution has been overlooked.

Tobacco still poses the biggest indoor threat, but wood-burning stoves, cleaning products and air fresheners can contribute.

Mould and mildew in poorly ventilated rooms can also cause illness.

Includes: Drivers 'exposed to highest levels of pollution'

 

[DAND214]

I don't care, THEY STINK & They pollute!

Dan

 

[LockH]

I don't care, THEY STINK & They pollute!
Dan

Hehe... and they often have one or more empty seats... w/plenty of empty cargo space.

 

[billvon]

If the emissions laws were more reasonable the clean deisel would be cheaper and I could get something like the deisel Mazda 6 wagon which seems to be available everywhere else but "coming soon" for about 6 years here.

What is unreasonable about them?

I'll go ahead and repeat that the current laws are stupid. They are ineffective at reducing smog . . . .

Well, except in reality they have reduced smog. Many of us are old enough to have seen it with our own eyes.

 

[Smoke]

If emissions laws were stable from about 1996 untill today, smog would be roughly the same.

If they keep tightening the standards but smog doesn't improve, why keep tightening them?

I'm not saying smog hasn't improved since 1996, just that the improvement was caused by older cars being retired from the fleet. Wether they are replaced by a 1996 or 2019 model vehicle isn't a big enough difference in emissions to notice.

Also, I lived in LA around then and have been back many times since. Being asthmatic, I notice air quality quite a bit and I don't think LA has improved much since 2000 although it was still improving in the late 1990s.

The fact that our laws make it impractical to upgrade a car with primitive emissions gear to a modern engine with fuel injection, is another problem. A lot of people can't afford new cars and some people prefer old cars but making that group maintain the primitive state of their emissions is stupid.

 

[neptronix]

If emissions laws were stable from about 1996 untill today, smog would be roughly the same.

That would be true if population was roughly the same ( thus the number of cars would be the same ).
Unfortunately not the case..

 

[Smoke]

I invite you to research the population of LA from the late 90s to today. I doubt it has increased very much and unlike some areas with geographic features that contain their size, LA is huge and has accommodated lots of urban sprawl.

My hunch is that LA reached saturation some time ago and miles driven per resident is pretty constant.

If I'm right, population hasn't had much effect.

The fact that lawn mowers and leaf blowers are contributing more to LA smog than automobiles should be a clue that rather than make emissions standards so stringent that auto makers have to cheat, they should do something effective like tax credits for fake lawns.