First build: Tour Easy Recumbent

doughpat

100 µW
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
8
Hi everyone-

I'll try to keep this short, but first let me say this is one of the most knowledgeable, yet still very welcoming internet forums I've ever come across. Fantastic. Ok--butt-kissing over.

Mission: Commute 7 miles (14 roundtrip) across mostly flat/small hills, with lots of pedal-assist.potentially could Recharge at work.

Rider weight: 185 lbs + ~20 lbs max. cargo. Bike weight is ~30 lbs.

Donor bike: EasyRacer "TE" (believe this is the heavier duty frame) by Tour Easy. Frame size: L. Nice components (Shimano XT, Tektro grip shift). In very good condition. 700 c rear, 20" front. Chromoly frame. V-brakes front and rear.

Specifications:
-would like to be able to do 30-35 mph on flat, unassisted. Don't plan on doing that often, but there are a couple of boring, flat, smooth sections on my commute that I'd like to power through. I also often battle moderately strong headwinds.
-would like to be able to plug in a single plug for charging, barring the occasional balancing charge
-considering the possibility of being able to add an auxillary battery pack for longer trips if needed in the future.
-would really like to keep the rear rack/paniers open for strapping on cargo

Budget: This is the hard part. I'd like to ultimately stay below $700. In a perfect world, I'd love to get in at $500, and I'd be willing to sacrifice range.

My Plan Thus Far:

-1000 w brushless direct drive rear hub motor. Would it be silly to get a 1500 w motor (or is that really just a matter of the controller?)
-Lipo battery (I have been into RC airplanes for a long time and do understand the danger of Lipo). I'm thinking at least 12S, though maybe 13S makes sense to keep the voltage above 48V even towards the end. I'm also thinking maybe I should go 18S to get that performance, though this might spike the price well out of my budget range. If nothing else, I'd like to have a motor that could eventually handle a higher voltage controller/battery.
-I really have no idea about which controller to use. I don't think regen is important, as the terrain around here is relatively flat, my distances are fairly short, and my budget is limited. I'm also wondering if this is maybe a place I can buy second-hand/refurbished?

I am looking for suggestions on parts and sources. I'm pretty good with a soldering iron (and have a nice Hakko 75w unit) and I'd say my electronics knowledge is "moderate", and I'm always happy to learn a thing or two from diagrams/tutorials. In other words--I'd like to save some cash by doing some of the assembly myself. I think that making my own lipo pack is within my skills, though the BMS stuff gets me a bit nervous--though I think mostly it is a matter of picking an appropriate BMS...soldering/wiring it up is probably do-able.

I'm finding it very difficult to know what level of quality to pay for. I'm skeptical of the stuff on eBay, but there are probably some serious values there if you are willing to wait for slow-boat shipping and rough owners manuals.

Ok everyone--thanks in advance. Your advice is appreciated.
 
Too many items to write about , so I will only cover the battery question.

Since you have been using RC Lipo's for quite a while, and because you want to go over 20 mph, then first off forget about 12s ( 2 6s packs )
and
also forget about 13s ( unless you are very experienced at taking lipo packs apart and putting them back together )
Because
48 volt systems , the controller really, can handle 14s . ( yes there are 7 s packs available , and a 3-8s charger available , these are what I am now using on my road bike, top speed with me pedaling a good amount is 22-23 mph , Max with no head wind on my little under 500 watt motor )

So

To go over 22-25 mph, you are , most likely going to need more than a 14s pack.

There are now availalbe 8s battery packs, for a 16 s pack to drive the motor,
or
you could go to 18s - 20 s , you will just need to get a 48-72 volt controller, which there are plenty of.
 
doughpat,

Get a fast wind DD front hub in a 20" front wheel. You won't have to screw with junky freewheels in the back. Your weight distribution will actually improve, and a 20" DD setup will accelerate better. You will be pulling 800-1000 battery watts for that speed, with pedaling, more without. You'll want 14s...50 volt under load, 30 amp continuous controller minimum.

https://www.electricbike.com/recumbent/

image (1).png
 
For a supplier, Grin Tech is the gold standard.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/m3548f20.html

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/controllers/c4835-gr.html

http://www.ebikes.ca/ca-dp.html

You could save a bit with this 9 C, if you can relace your own wheel.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors/m2705fd.html
 
I agree with Warren. I have a Sun EZ sport, which is like your bike, just a little less reclined, and I tried it both ways... a rear 9Continent direct drive, and a front Crystalyte 405 on the 20" front. I preferred the front quite a bit over the rear, especially with the batteries hanging off the mid-rack right under the seat - very good balance, and leaves room for the rear rack cargo. These bikes are great ebikes ...I call mine "the Swan". You've got some nice riding ahead! The Crystalytes are no longer available. I'd get a front 9Continent in a fast wind. That way you get to keep your rear cassette, preferably with an 11tooth cog on it, for speed.
 
Thank you for the precise recommendations. A few follow-on questions.

-I am looking at two potential motors for the 20" wheel, both by Crystalyte: The 3540 (as recommended by ScootermMan) and the 3548 (as recommended by "ooo! it costs more, it must be better!"). Other than extra $45 and decreased range, is there any other downside to the more powerful motor (the 3548)? On the simulator it is showing an almost 10 km/h increase in max speed. The range drops by about 10 km, but it is still well beyond my requirements.
-It seems most of the controllers 'come with' regen. I'm not sure if that's something I should actively try and avoid 'paying for'....does it add much to the cost?
-Speaking of regen: Since it seems most controllers come with it, I suppose it is probably worth the $12 to throw in an ebrake lever. Is that all it takes (an ebrake level + regen-capable controller)?
-My bike has grip shift. I assume that means I should go with a thumb throttle? I don't think I'm going to bother with any kind of pedal sensor...doesn't seem worth the expense/trouble (and can always add it later)
-Do you think a torque arm is in order? I believe it is a chromoly fork. It seems like it might be wise....I'm putting a lot of juice through this thing.
-Would 2 of these packs be a good choice? (5000 mah, 8S, Turnigy, 65C). https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-heavy-duty-5000mah-7s-60c-lipo-pack.html T The C rating seems way higher than I need, but I believe that will help with durability if I'm not mistaken. Two of these 5000 mAh in serious would give me 10,000 mAh (which is 10A, if my metrics serves me right), at about 60V which, according to the simulator, is plenty of range (30-40 km, depending on which motor I use)
-Still not sure about charging and/or battery management. But I'm definitely over-budget already : / I'm wondering if the cycle analyst could be added later?

Ok, a boat-load of questions. Thanks for your time!
 
doughpat,

Look again. You are looking at the same motor, in a different wind (rpm/volt). Both cost exactly the same. You can get them alone, or built into a wheel. That is the price difference you are seeing. I selected the faster wind, because you had said you wanted to be able to run 30-35 mph without pedaling.

Regen typically runs off a button. The e-brake is to cut motor power when you go for the brakes. If you are using throttle, hopefully you have enough sense to let go of the throttle when you brake. But the real value is that this stuff sometimes fails stuck at WOT. Your natural reaction would be to hit the brakes, and that will kill the power.

As to regen, on the front of a LWB recumbent: You would want to have your wits about you. Unless you go with an expensive proportional regen setup, which Grin Tech does offer, the button regen is all or nothing. Laid over in a turn, or on less than ideal pavement...not so much. In straight ahead, stop and go traffic, with a fat tire, it could work. Even without regen, near your maximum speed, based on pack voltage, when you chop the throttle, the back EMF acts like mild regen, so it will be working to keep you down to 30-35 mph down steep hills.

I use button regen, almost exclusively, on my DD cargo bike. But that is on the back of a 74" wheelbase bike. It is great in that application. Downhill, on dirt roads, it is almost like half assed ABS. When the tire loses traction, the regen goes away.

Torque arms, definitely. I'd put one of these on both sides.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-arms/torqarm-v2.html

Without them, your dropouts will spread, and you will die.
 
Just to be clear. What I am suggesting is very good quality stuff, that will work for a long time, and has the best people in the business backing it up. You could buy something for half the price, and overvolt it, and for 7 miles at a time it might not burn out. You could try without the torque arms on a cromo fork. You might get away with it. It's your life, and your money. Lots of folks on here have done those science experiments to see if the smoke would come out. It's up to you.
 
I used a 9C dd on the front of a toureasy clone I built myself. I did not keep the bike or motor but it was damn nice setup that way..
 

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Two of these 5000 mAh in serious would give me 10,000 mAh (which is 10A, if my metrics serves me right)

When you put two 5AH packs in series the voltage doubles, not the AH, so you would still have a 5AH battery pack. If you put two 5AH packs in parallel the voltage stays the same and the AH doubles. So I think you need four of those packs set up as 2S2P to get your expected voltage and 10AH.
 
You are looking at the same motor, in a different wind (rpm/volt). Both cost exactly the same. You can get them alone, or built into a wheel. That is the price difference you are seeing. I selected the faster wind, because you had said you wanted to be able to run 30-35 mph without pedaling.

Roger that--makes more sense now. I think I might consider the 9C 2705, as it looks to be decent quality but a substantially lower price. I don't want to buy garbage, but I also don't need top of the line.

I need to look into voltages and a controller for the 9C 2705. Interestingly, the "conversion kit" involving the 9C over at ebikes (http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-kits/direct-drive/nine-continent-front-kit-advanced-pas.html) doesn't seem to offer any controller options that support higher than 48 V. Maybe I need to put together my own package?

Torque arms in the shopping cart. Not feeling the need to "that kind" of experiment.
 
doughpat,

"I think I might consider the 9C 2705, as it looks to be decent quality but a substantially lower price."

It is definitely good. Add the ferrofluid for the amount of power you are hoping to pull. You linked to the PAS kit. I thought you just wanted throttle? There is a basic throttle kit too.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-kits/direct-drive/9c-front-kit-basic.html

"I need to look into voltages and a controller for the 9C 2705. Interestingly, the "conversion kit" involving the 9C over at ebikes (http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-kits/direct-drive/nine-continent-front-kit-advanced-pas.html) doesn't seem to offer any controller options that support higher than 48 V. Maybe I need to put together my own package?

Yes. You can price the components you want separately. I added up the prices for the five items that are standard in the basic throttle kit I linked above. $415 as separate items, or $390 as a kit. However, under controller options, they list the Phaserunner for $195. And it is way more controller than that motor could ever break!

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/controllers/c-phaserunner.html

They are knocking about $10 off, as the included controller sells for $110 alone. And the next best thing, that will handle over 52 volts, is $100 less, which eats up the kit savings. So it appears, if you want to hotrod this motor, your cheapest bet is separate parts

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/controllers/c7240-gr.html
 
Just to add another voice of experience, I use a second (at least) hand no-name 9C clone in a 20" front on my SWB recumbent, and I'm really happy with it. I started out with a Bafang mid-drive kit, then went to a rear MAC geared motor, and I much prefer my current setup to either of those. In terms of handling, having the weight in the front helps to balance the weight of the battery in the rear, so it handles much better than my previous rear-hub setup. It's also good to have the regen braking in the front where it's most effective. I rarely use my mechanical brake except to keep from rolling at a stop.

Mine is a slow wind, which works for me because I have a 72 V setup, but if I were starting from scratch, I'd go for a fast-wind 9C+ from Grin with ferrofluid. I think these 9C+ motors are about the best value out there, at least for North American customers.

One note of caution with the front drive: Be careful making quick starts on wet or dirty pavement, especially if you're making a turn, as the wheel can slip if you apply too much torque and then you lose your traction for turning and risk losing control. Just ease on the throttle more gently after a rainstorm and you'll be fine.
 
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